The dreaded Westminster that allowed the establishment of a Scottish parliament and also a referendum on Scottish independence. What is really so wrong about Westminster?
Extreme City of London bias.fasternotfatter - Member
The dreaded Westminster that allowed the establishment of a Scottish parliament and also a referendum on Scottish independence. What is really so wrong about Westminster?
[quote=fasternotfatter opined]The dreaded Westminster that allowed the establishment of a Scottish parliament and also a referendum on Scottish independence. What is really so wrong about Westminster?
Gawd bless you be thanking you kindly sir for your generosity
So your reply to they rule and have to much power is to show that they rule from Westminster and only they can grant powers to scotland
Some times I just love the unintentional satire/irony of the internet 😆
Thanks for that
they rule from Westminster and only they can grant powers to scotland
Who else do you think should be able to grant powers to Scotland?
A.G. Barr? Jimmy Crankie? Sean Connery?
The clue is in the name. It's a Nationalist party. They want more for Scotland. There is only a finite amount of resource, so therefore if they get more, rUK will have less.
From what I saw, the party of fear and anger was UKIP. You might want to have a look at how UKIP did in Scotland as opposed to Scotland.
Presuming you mean England in there somewhere, then yes - UKIP did depressingly well in this election, getting 12.5% of the popular vote. In Scotland it was about 1/10th of that*.
*Can't find the exact figure, the BBC have them under "other" who got 2.5% in total.
JY do you mean Westminster grants powers in accordance with the current system of government that applies to the whole of the UK that defines the relationship between the UK government and devolved governments and executives? Of course they do don't they? 🙄
That is what the people of Scotland voted for when they voted to remain part of the UK. The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Westminster system.
Scotland vote share
SNP 50.0%
LAB 24.3%
CON 14.9%
LD 7.5%
UKIP 1.6%
GRN 1.3%
There is only a finite amount of resource
No, there isn't - this is the lie at the heart of the whole austerity agenda, that there's only so much money to go around. It's like those people who compare the national debt to a credit card.
The SNP's plan was to grow the economy for everyone, with some more public spending. It worked for Roosevelt with the New Deal. Whether it would work for the UK is debatable of course, but the idea that the pot of money (which doesn't exist anyway) is only a fixed size fuels the selfish nature of this debate.
That is what the people of Scotland voted for when they voted to remain part of the UK. The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Westminster system.
Last year they did. Now? Debatable. After another 5 years of Tory government? Probably quite unlikely.
Scotland vote share
SNP 50.0%
LAB 24.3%
CON 14.9%
LD 7.5%
UKIP 1.6%
GRN 1.3%
Thanks for finding that - so UKIP did a fraction better than my guess 😉
UKIP took 1.6% of the vote in scotland.
So what?
A lot of UKIP's support comes from, perceived or otherwise, the problem with mass immigration and the loss of "native" British culture.
As Scotland has no problem with mass immigration and their cultural identity has only become stronger in the last 20 years, why would UKIP achieve much support there?
their cultural identity has only become stronger in the last 20 years
Out of interest, what do you think that cultural identity is? Because it's not tartan, bagpipes, och-aye-the-noo and all that stuff. It's certainly not based on where you were born.
Out of interest, what do you think that cultural identity is? Because it's not tartan, bagpipes, och-aye-the-noo and all that stuff. It's certainly not based on where you were born.
No need to be so patronising.
As the vast majority live in the Central Belt, I would say there is a strong, post industrial society, that has seen massive problems and change in the last 30 years. There is also a very strong Celtic influence which puts a different slant on it from what you would find in similar areas in the NE or NW of England.
Am I correct, in that you are not actually Scottish?
No need to be so patronising.
I wasn't aware that I was. The stuff I listed was what often comes up when discussing Scottish culture.
Am I correct, in that you are not actually Scottish?
Define Scottish. I was born in Glasgow and have lived here all my life, but neither parent was born in Scotland.
A lot of UKIP's support comes from, perceived or otherwise, the problem with mass immigration and the loss of "native" British culture.
English culture surely.
Yah lets move the goalposts and discuss that instead
That is what the people of Scotland voted for when they voted to remain part of the UK. The majority of Scots want to remain part of the Westminster system.
Point of order: It was the people who were resident in scotland and eligible to vote who decided which is not the same thing as the majority of Scots
It was not a vote of scots but of the people eligible to vote in Scotland. they are not the same thing.
Your broad point is true in that they did vote to remain in the union but no one had disputed that and it seems ot have no relevance to the question of whether the UK parliament is westminster dominated/centric.
Define Scottish. I was born in Glasgow and have lived here all my life, but neither parent was born in Scotland.
Apologies for the obvious Troll. I was trying to get a rise.
I wasn't aware that I was.
You appeared to be assuming I was some Southerner who had been to Inverness once on a coach trip.
After living and working in Scotland for a number of years, I feel I have quite a good understanding of Scottish culture.
I still don't understand where you're going with this argument. You seem to be saying that even though Scotland elected a pro-immigrant party we only did that because we have relatively few immigrants, that'll change if we have lots more immigrants, therefore Scotland is becoming insular. Is that it in summary?
Point of order: It was the people who were resident in scotland and eligible to vote who decided which is not the same thing as the majority of Scots
It was not a vote of scots but of the people eligible to vote in Scotland. they are not the same thing.
What?
Why do you come out with nonsense like this?
Are you suggesting that there are more Scots living outside Scotland than within it?
Besides, if you don't want to live in the UK why should you decide it's future?
Or are you suggesting that all the Aussies, Canadians and Americans who are of Scottish descent counts as "Scots"?
Is that it in summary?
My point about UKIP was that it is a red herring to hold it up to show what a Workers Utopia you want to create.
As I have argued with you before, if Scotland got independence, I would expect quite a strong right wing party to come into existence.
Look at how strong the Freemasons in Scotland are, hardly a beacon of progressive thinking?
The tories already exist in Scotland dspite popular belief! 😆
As I have argued with you before, if Scotland got independence, I would expect quite a strong right wing party to come into existence.
We've already got several 😉
The makeup of Holyrood is much more balanced than the General Election result. And that's a good thing. If we were independent I highly doubt I'd be voting SNP, I could vote Green and it would actually make a difference.
A lot of people in Scotland wanted their own parliament and they got one. The same with the referendum. They want more powers and they are getting them as well. Wales and Northern Ireland have devolved powers, London has devolved powers, Greater Manchester is also getting devolved powers. With all this increasing devolved power just how westminster dominated/centric is the UK government.
In England we also don't have a English parliament so we are reliant on the Westminster system to represent our needs.
The SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.
I don't think anyone disagree's with that.fasternotfatter - MemberThe SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.
If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.
That depends on what westminster does.fasternotfatter - Member
If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.
Deliver what? There's a Tory majority.
The SNP need to work for their constituencies on a local level better than the previous labour candidates have.bencooper - Member
Deliver what? There's a Tory majority.
They also need to take what ever powers the tories will give us and use them well.
They are in government in Scotland, so they aren't powerless.
Indeed....they have no power in Westminster. All they can do is make a lot of noise!
The SNP need to work for their constituencies on a local level better than the previous labour candidates have.
Oh, absolutely, they need to be held to that. But we also need to recognise that the Tories can now do pretty much whatever they like. Theoretically they could abolish the Scottish parliament if they wanted to.
bencooper - Member
Oh, absolutely, they need to be held to that. But we also need to recognise that the Tories can now do pretty much whatever they like.
On that last part, the noise they make in westminster will be important, and not without influence.
The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.
Blimey, do the rUK need to eat your oatcakes too?
Hopefully coverage of the Holyrood elections will be kept local if this is the standard of debate.
The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.
Diddums. Was your vote for UKIP wasted then?
The SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.
But they will do this outside of the Westminster model as they swept the board in Scotland and have next to no say in UK policy...some may say that is why the Union is failing.
If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.
They can only deliver with Westminsters consent so it really depends what cards they deal/grant them as to who will get the blame for anythign that happens
If for example Westminster slashes the Scotland budget by say 50% I dont think the SNP will be blamed for any failure to deliver.
Devolved power to Scotland is part of the Westminster Model. The union is only failing in the eyes of people who want to run Scotland down. Scotland is a great place and is doing very nicely, especially when compared to other parts of the UK or even other parts of England.
It has it's own government with more powers coming and more than enough freedom to control the direction it goes in.
The Barnett formula is staying so there is no need to start your own project fear about the Scottish budget being slashed by 50%. 😉
bencooper - Member
Define Scottish. I was born in Glasgow and have lived here all my life, but neither parent was born in Scotland
English just like your dad 😛
Rockape63 - MemberIndeed....they have no power in Westminster. All they can do is make a lot of noise!
which will turn in to media headlines and more votes in the scottish elections 😉
But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.
You don't quite understand the principle of MPs representing the people who elected them, do you? Bless. Of course the SNP are going to fight for Scotland, that's what we elected them for!
I know we used to send nice compliant Labour MPs to Westminster who would then do what their whips told them to do. Sorry, no more.
English just like your dad
**** off. 😛
cheer up, you got a majority in Westminster.teamhurtmore - Member
The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.Blimey, do the rUK need to eat your oatcakes too?
Hopefully coverage of the Holyrood elections will be kept local if this is the standard of debate.
seosamh I think THM has failed to fully grasp the nature of "adversarial politics" which is a corner stone of the British political system. He obviously feels that all non-Tory MPs should simply fall into line with a Tory government.
Which is strange because he seems quite a bright lad in many ways.
You don't quite understand the principle of MPs representing the people who elected them, do you? Bless. Of course the SNP are going to fight for Scotland, that's what we elected them for!I know we used to send nice compliant Labour MPs to Westminster who would then do what their whips told them to do. Sorry, no more.
In the same way as Scottish MPs will be held to task by Sturgeon, Swinney and Smug Face...... ie The SNP cult/dictatorship.
A lot of people seem to be getting MSPs and MPs confused!! Westminster will eat a lot of our "new" MPs for breakfast as it has done in the past 🙄
Scotland has a problem at Hollyrood. There has been years of wasted time on Devolution followed rapidly by more party time on this election and it starts all over again with next years Scottish elections! Not much time/effort being put into running the country by MSPs as far as I can see.
Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start 💡 Alternatively a dual carriage way.
I agree Trekster. The SNP need to spend less time talking down Scotland and the UK and more time actually using the powers they have been given.
I still don't understand how a party got near 50.9% of the seats with only near 36.9% of actual votes cast.
Well I do but I don't want to.
Put another way over 63% of voters didn't want the Tories in power
NB: my maths is dodgy .. using figures from top 3 search results on google .. i.e. not heavily researched
[apologies if all of this has been covered before]
Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start Alternatively a dual carriage way.
Now then, remind who was it got rid of the Paddy Line? Tories per chance?
Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start Alternatively a dual carriage way.
This would help the traffic flow in the area a huge amount, but the chances of a dual carriageway all the way to Stranraer? None, I'd of thought. Especially given how long it's taken and will take to get the A9 done.
more time actually using the powers they have been given.
Apart from the deliberately useless tax powers, which powers haven't they been using that you suggest they use?
I still don't understand how a party got near 50.9% of the seats with only near 36.9% of actual votes cast. Well I do but I don't want to. Put another way over 63% of voters didn't want the Tories in power
1997 Labour won 43.2% of votes and 63% of seats
2001 Labour won 40.7% votes and 62% seats
2005 Labour won 35.2% votes and 55% seats
2010 Conservatives won 36.1% of votes and 47% seats
As far as I am concerned, anyone turning round now and crying crocodile tears that the system is unfair because the Tories won this time can get stuffed, they weren't complaining last time!
You can always look at it another way - this year we have seen a combined 'right wing' vote (Tory 36.9 UKIP 12.6 and DUP/UUP 1%) of 50.5% take a total of 52% of seats!
