Do you care? The media have been banging on about it for ages but it seems like one of those stories that nobody cares about.
I do, and it is starting to look like history is being rewritten, portraying him as a loose cannon, when there are big questions about the polices role in inciting criminal behaviour.
It's just another one of those stories that can easily be summed by most people with "so what"
It'll keep a few hand-wringers um-ing and ar-ing mind
definately trying to make him out as a fall guy here
people get all worked up about a police state and focus their rage on cctv cameras for some reason, while things like this people ignore
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/20/undercover-police-children-activists ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/20/undercover-police-children-activists[/url]
There was a bloke on the radio this morning who made the point that to listen to someones phone needs the prime ministers signature, but to set up an undercover cop to pretend to live with someone needs just a policemans signature!!
jota180 - Member
It's just another one of those stories that can easily be summed by most people with "so what"It'll keep a few hand-wringers um-ing and ar-ing mind
Yeah, wgaf what the police get do or how they treat their officers. Hey, look, a squirrel.
I enjoyed the documentary and thought he came across well. I also feel sorry for him a bit. He's utterly lost having been shunned by both his colleagues and the protesters he thought were his "friends".
The story is pretty fascinating; betrayal, love, confession, violence.
that to listen to someones phone needs the prime ministers signature
He'd be a busy man, there was something like 900 application per day a couple of years ago - not seen any recent figures
There was a bloke on the radio this morning who made the point that to listen to someones phone needs the prime ministers signature
Well he got that bit wrong then.
The brief read I've had of the HMIC report in the Guardian criticises both him and his handlers for failing to exercise proper control and managment.
Reminds me of quotes of an old MPS operation (think it was against a Fraser kid) where a source said " We wanted Donnie Brasco and got Donnie Fiasco, we wanted infiltration and all we got was penetration"
It's not high on my give a give-a-shit ometer right now. It's quite funny that a bloke can penetrate to the heart of the green movement by virtue of owning a van with a valid MOT certificate, but that's about it.
Thinking seriously about it, though, a lot would depend on how isolated a case it was. No one gave a shite about phone-hacking outside of the guardian for two years, until the full story came out and rocked the entire media apparatus of the UK.
If it turns out that there is large scale infiltration of lawful organisations (ie not the al qaeda numpties, things like unions, pressure groups, political parties etc), all done in a completely opaque and unaccountable way, then that would be potentially a big story. Even then it might not interest people as there's a long history of UK governments spying on organisations like the NUM in the 80s, so it's hardly unheard of. It hinges on the agent provocateur role played by the government I suppose.
+1 kimbers
Two undercover police officers secretly fathered children with political campaigners they had been sent to spy on and later disappeared completely from the lives of their offspring, the Guardian can reveal.In both cases, the children have grown up not knowing that their biological fathers – whom they have not seen in decades – were police officers who had adopted fake identities to infiltrate activist groups. Both men have concealed their true identities from the children's mothers for many years.
If finding all that disgusting makes me a 'hand-wringer' (almost as lame as the PC brigade 'insult') then so be it.
It's the Home Secretary's permission for a phone tap BTW (at least that was what the chap said on R4 this mornig, misquoted above).
A point made was that some of thse operations are against organisations that basically cause a nuisance, rather than ones that commit, or are planning to commit, serious crimes.
It's the Home Secretary's permission for a phone tap BTW
piece is from a couple of year back but I can't imagine massive changes
[b][i]A total of 653 state bodies — including 474 councils — have the power to intercept private communications.
Bugging is usually carried out by MI5, MI6, GCHQ and the police and most people are targeted on suspicion of terrorism or serious crime.
But under laws that came into force eight years ago hundreds of public bodies can carry out surveillance.
These include the Financial Services Authority, the Ambulance Service and local fire authorities and prison governors.[/i][/b]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576937/Phones-tapped-at-the-rate-of-1000-a-day.html
I don't pretend to be well enough informed to judge who merits being spied on but fathering children whist doing so is just not cricket.
The mothers should be entitled to significant compensation IMHO.
Sorry, it was early, and I wasn't concentrating that hard!!
Channel Four did a recent documentary on this. Mark Kennedy was stitched up like a kipper. He was interviewed and he was a mess! You couldn't help but feel sorry for him
If any other employer treated one of its staff with such incompetence and disinterest while putting them in such potentially life-threatening situations, they'd be paying out some serious dosh at employment tribunals
Whats equally as worrying are the millions upon millions of pounds of taxpayers money poured into this 'investigation' for not far short of ten years! All without securing a single conviction. Not even so much as a caution for a public order offense!
A total of 653 state bodies — including 474 councils — have the power to intercept private communications.
Bugging is usually carried out by MI5, MI6, GCHQ and the police and most people are targeted on suspicion of terrorism or serious crime.
But under laws that came into force eight years ago hundreds of public bodies can carry out surveillance.
These include the Financial Services Authority, the Ambulance Service and local fire authorities and prison governors.
Sounds like sloppy journalism, 653 seems a little high to interecpt comms (more so if you read s6 of RIPA part I) - is this not the number of bodies who can lawfully acquire communications data which is something different. A council will not meet the required criteria for a warrant;
The Secretary of State shall not issue an interception warrant unless he believes— .
(3)Subject to the following provisions of this section, a warrant is necessary on grounds falling within this subsection if it is necessary— .
(a)in the interests of national security; .
(b)for the purpose of preventing or detecting serious crime; .
(c)for the purpose of safeguarding the economic well-being of the United Kingdom; or .
(d)for the purpose, in circumstances appearing to the Secretary of State to be equivalent to those in which he would issue a warrant by virtue of paragraph (b), of giving effect to the provisions of any international mutual assistance agreement.
RIPA and increased surveillance is a bit of a red herring; hundreds of public bodies carry out surveillance due to the wide definition of surveillance in RIPA (activity that is likely to result in the obtaining of private information about a person (whether or not one specifically identified for the purposes of the investigation or operation))and, prior to RIPA all these bodies were probably still carrying out surveillance it's just that it wasn't regulated by law as there was no legislation in place, RIPA was brought in to regulate this activity and does
I also feel sorry for him a bit. He's utterly lost having been shunned by both his colleagues and the protesters he thought were his "friends".
That's shocking - you mean the people he befriended so he could spy on to get evidence to have them sent to jail have shunned him. And he can't think of a single reason why?
That's shocking - you mean the people he befriended so he could spy on to get evidence to have them sent to jail have shunned him. And he can't think of a single reason why?
Oddly, he is more concerned about being shunned by them than he is the police. He came across as regretful, heartbroken and lonely. In doing what was asked of him (his job) he was left him with nothing. No job, no family, no friends. Nothing
I feel sympathy for him. Pretty heartless not to really.
Pretty heartless not to really.
yeah, almost as heartless as having a serous and committed relationship for no other reason than to establish a cover from which to spy on your new-found best mates.
No job, no family, no friends. Nothing
"karma"
Also on R4 this morning.
This is the sort of dangerous extremist organisation that the police are sending undercover cops to monitor. Apparently EDL aren't extreme enough to warrant it though.
"karma"
No empathy with your fellow man then?
He was a pig!! Deserves everything he gets!
He was quite happy to play secret squirrel and screw and lie himself into a group of activists who posed no threat to society when he had the support of fellow and senior officers, now he's been screwed himself he's crying, boohoo.. 🙄
No sympathy here I'm afraid,..he's just a two faced **** who came unstuck IMO
What's with all this spying things?
If it means having nookie with some nice looking babes in the protest group ... I'm in.
Throughout all this I firmly think the senior Police Officers in charge really are abit Walter Mitty-wannabe MI5. Stepping badly into an area that they should not have ventured.
Clown Army. Which one do you mean, the Police in this instance or the Protesters?
Why haven't the people who dreamed up this been sacked?
Stick to Policing. Not encroaching onto others territory IMO.
He was quite happy to play secret squirrel and screw and lie himself into a group of activists who posed no threat to society when he had the support of fellow and senior officers, now he's been screwed himself he's crying, boohoo
That's a pretty fair assessment I'm afraid.
Dirty tricks eh? Next you'll be telling me the police were in bed with the tabloids too...
Its the price we pay for being able to watch the x-factor in peace.
Pisses me right off!! The police should be catching criminals not trying to incriminate bloody wooly hat protesters, we've got mi5-6 for secret squirrel bollocks,....
The problem isn't necessarily with the infiltration in itself, I can understand the need for such actions with proper oversight when the objective is to prevent serious crime.
But in this case there seems to have been little evidence of the likelihood of serious crime being committed and the police actions appear to have been political. After finding no worthwhile evidence at all, the operation tried to entice criminality.
When you also see the police actions at the student protests (undercover officers enticing violence) and the use of kettling to raise tensions at many protests.
It is extremely worrying that the underhand way the police are being used as a political tool, and that a supposedly independent police force is accepting this role.
It is extremely worrying that the underhand way the police are being used as a political tool, and that a supposedly independent police force is accepting this role.
The police have been taking orders directly from Whitehall for a couple of decades now, it's just become more obvious with the advent of modern technology.
The police are not independent any more and it's a sad reflection on us, the citizens, that most people don't give a shit.
What Lifer said.
Two undercover police officers secretly fathered children with political campaigners they had been sent to spy on and later disappeared completely from the lives of their offspring, the Guardian can reveal.
This is horrible behaviour by anyone let alone public servants being paid by the taxpayer to do so.
Is that Clown Army video for real or a spoof? Made me laugh. Don't think I could have kept a straight face if I was "policing them"
How does one "secretly father a child" - you would think somebody would notice, not least when they have to step over in when it falls out of the mother in the queue at Tesco.
And, accepting that such a thing might happen - is one then obliged to name it "Jesus" ? What if it's a girl ? Jesusetta ??
Everything explained here Hels...
Actually it's not about the action of spying but really it's down to waste of money ...
I mean to be spending time with environment protest groups dossing about and enjoying life without having to write bureaucratic report or meeting sales target, joining the rat race etc and still receive salary ... you're are having a laugh.
Tell him to get a real job by doing some paper works like a good pen pusher.
How does one "secretly father a child"
Sleight of cock I would think
When the recipient isn't looking or otherwise occupied, wham, bam - job done
That worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn't paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??
Is that Clown Army video for real or a spoof? Made me laugh. Don't think I could have kept a straight face if I was "policing them"
CIRCA is/was real. Most ground level cops were happy to see them, enjoyed a bit of banter and had no problems at all. The fact they were infiltrated shows the paranoia of Whitehall and it's reluctance to engage with any group that appears to disregard a mainstream approach.
As with RTS, CIRCA will disappear, splinter, regroup and start another process of peaceful and unconventional protest. No doubt they'll get infiltrated again and the process will begin again.
Garry_Lager - MemberThinking seriously about it, though, a lot would depend on how isolated a case it was..............................
If it turns out that there is large scale infiltration of lawful organisations (ie not the al qaeda numpties, things like unions, pressure groups, political parties etc), all done in a completely opaque and unaccountable way, then that would be potentially a big story.
I think its already known that many peaceful and legal organisation s were infiltrated and in some cases provoked.
Hopefully the papers will keep pressing and more info will come to light.
To be infiltrating non violent protest groups is a gross distortion of police values.
That worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn't paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??
I imagine it's really hilarious for the kids/mother in question.
What, so they slept with somebody who ended up not being quite who they thought they were ?? First time that has happened ever in the entire history of humanity, somebody round up 3 wise men and some camels.
Funny how the gloves on the other hand for the "human empathy" brigade isn't it? Some of who don't agree with the punishment of criminals (only the rehabilitation) and the rights of someone to sponge off the state but if it's a policeman then all bets are off and its "karma" and "boohoo". Selective empathy.
Hels. Are you insinuating what I think you are?
That the Angel Gabriel was in fact an undercover police officer, sent to investigate the emerging group of troublemakers, the Christians. And the Inn, stable, manger, etc were props in an elaborate 'sting'?
I once had my wicked way with a female GI in Greenland, she thought I was Her Majesty's representative in Greenland.
Not 100% sure if any soap dodgers were produced as a result mind
I'm a Kiwi Binners, we don't do insinnuition.
If I was saying that, I would just say it, or perhaps send one of our All Black Orcs to sort it out.
Wrecker that's bolloks and all, it's not about [i]Selective empathy[/i] but about [i]inappropriate policing[/i]
Do you feel he's done no wrong? Do you feel empathy toward someone prepared to act in this manner because it backfired and he fell by the sword he was so eager to wield?
As I said...boohoo.. 🙄
but if it's a policeman then all bets are off and its "karma" and "boohoo".
I don't know if you've read the story or not, but he lied to a group of people who trusted him and called him their friend. From the outset, he totally and utterly betrayed them, and did so with no other aim than to betray them. He developed a relationship with one of them based on nothing more than this betrayal. Frankly, this is the kind loathsome behaviour I expect from junkie scum. And guess what - now they don't want to be his pals anymore and he doesn't understand why.
And you can accuse other people of lacking in emapthy??
What, so they slept with somebody who ended up not being quite who they thought they were ?? First time that has happened ever in the entire history of humanity, somebody round up 3 wise men and some camels.
They got paid to do it out of our taxes. I'm amazed that anyone is defending this or claiming its not an issue. You must be a real charmer if you consider this acceptable behaviour.
Not 100% sure if any soap dodgers were produced as a result mind
Again, you sound like a real charmer, maybe see if there are any jobs going in the police undercover squads?
Funny how the gloves on the other hand for the "human empathy" brigade isn't it? Some of who don't agree with the punishment of criminals (only the rehabilitation) and the rights of someone to sponge off the state but if it's a policeman then all bets are off and its "karma" and "boohoo". Selective empathy.
Selective empathy based on completely different unrelated scenarios, er...... yes.
hels - Member
That worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn't paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??
Just biding my time...
hels - MemberThat worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn't paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??
Hi Mum 🙂
Teh point to me is almost anything goes if he was infiltrating terrorist organisations tht are a real threat to society but with a bunch of dippy hipppies? Did they really pose enough of a threat that undercover cops were merited? Its more like Stasi FFS
Wrecker that's bolloks and all, it's not about Selective empathy but about inappropriate policing
Do you feel he's done no wrong? Do you feel empathy toward someone prepared to act in this manner because it backfired and he fell by the sword he was so eager to wield?
He was doing his job. He's not behaved perfectly (I'm only talking about Kennedy) but he is only human. He was put in a position and left there [i]for years[/i] and whilst at it fell in love.
e lied to a group of people who trusted him and called him their friend. From the outset, he totally and utterly betrayed them, and did so with no other aim than to betray them.
???? He wasn't sent to make friends. He was sent with the purpose of finding out what people were up to.
So some activists had their feelings hurt
boohoo..
A bloke has had his entire life ruined just by doing his job.
"A bloke has had his entire life ruined just by doing his job."
I thought he was a policeman sworn to up hold the law . He planned and took part in criminal acts. He appeared in court as a defendant under a false name thereby perverting the course of justice . He was party to a massive failure to disclose important evidence that led to the wrongful conviction of a number of innocent protesters. All of which was paid for and sanctioned by senior officers none was exactly the job the public thought they were funding.
Who are you talking about crankboy?
wrecker - Mark Kennedy
He planned and took part in criminal acts.
As part of his job.
He appeared in court as a defendant under a false name thereby perverting the course of justice .
As a part of his job (which he was not responsible for according to the enquiry)
Like I said. He was doing what he was told.
Kennedy acted like a s..t, now he's being treated like a s..t. Seems fair.
He was doing what he was told.
That's ok then,..so anyone working outside of, and directly breaking the law, isn't responsible for their actions as long as someone senior told them to do it?
Concentration camp guards anyone,...?
What a ridiculous comparison.
A bit extreme maybe,.. but 'i was only following orders' has been said before, and is generally accepted to be bollocks..
Comparing gassing Jews with pretty much anything is wholly accepted to be bollocks.
By you maybe...
So as long as your not gassing Jews,.. anything goes....
Do you know him or something?
I just appreciate that some people have to do a difficult job. I don't see spying on a few idiots as anything too severe in the scheme of things. Loosing your entire life in return is disproportionate. If you think comparing this to genocide is acceptable then you have severely twisted morals.
So as long as your not gassing Jews,.. anything go's....
Nobody with half a brain is going to agree with that connection.
If we rephrase 'spying on a few idiots' to 'upholders of the law, breaking the law, inciting violence and incriminating innocent people whilst hiding behind the excuse of [i]Following orders[/i] ' I may have a point..
It's easier to say 'just spying on a few idiots' though isn't it..
Like I said. He was doing what he was told.
the Nuremberg defence and it does not hold up.
It's not ****ing Nuremberg. FFS.
It's a lazy, shit, irrelevant and insulting comparison.
It's not a direct comparison or an attempt to make a moral equivalence, surely that's obvious? It's just a way of pointing out that "I was only following orders" doesn't absolve [i]anyone [/i]of blame.
wrecker - Member"He planned and took part in criminal acts."
As part of his job.
Heh. All professional criminals take part in criminal acts as part of their job 😉
Its exactly what it is - justifying the unjustifiable by saying "I was only following orders"
Nuremberg set the precedent that that is no defence.
Spying on a few idiots? thats a part of what makes in unjustifiable. I agree he is being scapegoated to some extent but he appears not to be getting prosecuted. however if he had been spying on someone actually dangerous then there might have been more justification.
Proportionate and commensurate? to spay on a non violent protest group using these tactics? far more suited to the IRA and al queda surely
Grum - next time I willhold up my sarcasm sign.
Northwind and TJ - probably only fair to reveal at this point that I am not a real ginger.
It's not **** Nuremberg. FFS.
No it's not,..it's britain, and OUR police force are acting like some south American military junta! FFS!!!
(that's my first FFS on stw 😀 )
Your defending the indefensible IMO so I'm going for my dinner.
Again it's bloody irrelevant. We're looking at a moral judgement of right and wrong. Citing a defence used by nazis to attempt to justify genocide is lazy.
Lying to idiots is obviously not so unquestionable. Everyone has a difference as to what is acceptable; speeding, tax evasion etc.
I don't agree or disagree with his mission. As I said earlier I am not best placed to judge who merits spying on and would hazard a guess neither is anyone else on here. I bet the bloke never joined the police to be abused by his masters the way he has. He is certainly not the devil incarnate as some on here would have us think.
khani’s analogy to the extermination camps was crass and idiotic - and I think in retrospect he knows that - but his point is valid, in that ultimately, no matter what position we hold in society, we are all individually accountable for our actions. Perhaps Mr Kennedy lacked the moral fibre to extricate himself from a situation that he and others allowed to spiral out of control. I’ve not seen the documentary and don’t know much about the circumstances, but maybe he developed relationships that he didn’t want to end and therefore was inclined to allow the duplicity to carry on - not being able to turn his emotions off.
Undoubtedly he was let down by senior officers (his handlers) who failed to govern his actions and provide him with clear, proportionate legal aims & directives. Or if they did, failed to check he was following them at regular periods.
The whole sorry business was a big waste of time and energy and clearly shows the pitfalls of an officer doing SEVEN years of UC work. It’s hardly an unforeseeable shocker that allowing an officer to assume another identity for that long, living that double life, could change his psyche and mindset and things might go pear shaped.
I think it would make a good film or BBC drama ... and personally I’d cast Daniel Mays as the officer!
Its not irrelevant Wrecker - you are trying to justify his conduct by saying "he was only following orders" that is no defence in law. Nuremberg made that defence no longer permissible in any situation including this one.
Its not about a moral judgement - that would be that his actions were justified - thats a different argument to "I was only following orders"
I CBA with your usual tricks TJ. Same as before, I know full well what you're like and will not be drawn into a wall butting never ending concentrate on one thing bore fest with you and I never will. You've just killed the thread. Well done.
Take it as a victory if you like. I just don't care.
khani’s analogy to the extermination camps was crass and idiotic - and I think in retrospect he knows that
Yes, apologies for that, 🙁 not the best analogy, just the first to spring to mind hearing the term 'only following orders' used..
Sorry peeps...
I am not the only one to make that point. several of us have. You called it irrelvant and crass - I merely pointed out where you were wrong IMO
deluded - Member
khani’s ...................
but his point is valid, in that ultimately, no matter what position we hold in society, [b]we are all individually accountable for our actions[/b].
Northwind - MemberIt's not a direct comparison or an attempt to make a moral equivalence, surely that's obvious? It's just a way of pointing out that "I was only following orders" doesn't absolve anyone of blame.
If my boss told me do something ilegal or imoral i'd tell them to get stuffed, as would most honest people.
TJ made a valid point, saying he killed the thread is a *cop out.
*see what I did there? 8)
TJ - actually wrecker just called it irrelevant (not crass). You're conflating posts!
Oops