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The US team are wearing his initials on his team kit as some sort of memorial at the Berlin world champs. To my knowledge they've never done anything similar elsewhere.
If you were a 21st century German what would you think of this gesture?
If you were a 21st century German what would you think of this gesture?
they're socially and politically insensitive and/or thick & easily led ?
they're socially and politically insensitive and/or thick & easily led ?
Whom?
Why would either nation be considered to be
for honouring an athlete whose name is synonomous with undermining the Nazi Arayan superiority concept, unless of course you are suggesting one or other is facist and/or racist in outlook?......socially and politically insensitive and/or thick & easily led ?
The Americans.
Remember their Desert Storm themed Ryder Cup uniforms that were designed to intimidate us, despite us being allies?
Numpties.
for honouring an athlete whose name is synonomous with undermining the Nazi Arayan superiority concept, unless of course you are suggesting one or other is facist and/or racist in outlook?
Maybe our lot should have turned up with WC on their shoulders, and a Romeo y Julieta stuck behind their ear?
Not forgetting the bottle of champagne, richpips....
So are you saying they shouldn't honour one of their greatest athletes in the place of his biggest success as it might upset a few people who haven't moved on?
Maybe our lot should have turned up with WC on their shoulders, and a Romeo y Julieta stuck behind their ear?
Completely lost please elaborate.
WC - Winston Churchill
Romeo y Julieta - Cuban (short/Churchill) Cigar
[i]To my knowledge they've never done anything similar elsewhere.[/i]
I think they're doing because the meet is being held at the same Olympic stadium, which is the first time that it's been used for a major event such as this. How does it make the germans feel? Well at the times despite Hitler's* opinion of him Jesse Owens was pretty much universally loved by the Germans, and was crowded around everywhere he went.
*Mind you, Roosevelt refused to meet Jesse Owens when he returned from Berlin as well, fearing the reaction of Southern Voters. Bit shit all round really...
Jon Taylor - Member
WC - Winston Churchill
Romeo y Julieta - Cuban (short/Churchill) Cigar
Thanks Jon, Sorry didn't make myself clear, I knew that. Just didn't get the connection with what a pre war games and a pre war athlete had to do with the UK's wartime leader and his trademark fag.
Just didn't get the connection with what a pre war games and a pre war athlete had to do with the UK's wartime leader and his trademark fag.
Germany's leader was the same.
What he didn't get the connection either ?
Completely lost please elaborate.
Thanks Jon, Sorry didn't make myself clear, I knew that. Just didn't get the connection with what a pre war games and a pre war athlete had to do with the UK's wartime leader and his trademark fag.
OK.
So are you saying they shouldn't honour one of their greatest athletes in the place of his biggest success as it might upset a few people who haven't moved on?
Yes.
Or else they ought to be consistent; I don't believe they've done this before and I'd be surprised if they do it again. Makes you wonder what was sooooo special about this - seems there's more to it than "just" the athlete (It's 73 years ago, not normally a significant anniversary. I don't think US national athletics did much in the year of his death - other than boycott the olympics. Maybe they could've used the free time to honour him then ?)
Heads up, here comes the insensitive bit, seems to me they're using the nazi thing, in a country whose government and majority population is EXPLICITLY ashamed of what happened and has passed laws attempting to prevent a recurrence. As someone said above, his own president & goverment publicly spurned him at the time to a greater extent than did nazi Germany & merrily continued segregation in several states thereafter. Seems to me it's whoever made & supported the decision to do this that hasn't moved on.
Mr. Bolt did the business though without such historical references.
Ditto Jessia Innes.
I was supposed to have a night ride from 7pm - well, I didn't get up off my butt the whole evening (I did do some stretching as a token gesture!)
Very inspiring.
If you do some research, you'll find that an important part of the 'Jessie Owens thing' is that it celebrates the friendship between the family of Owens and that of German long jumper Luz Long. It's nothing to do with digging up old grievances, quite the contrary.
See: [url] http://berlin.iaaf.org/news/kind=100/newsid=52558.html [/url]
But why let that spoil a good STW whinge 😉 Whether it's naff or contrived or whatever is a different matter entirely...
ah, I see BWD - I must've missed the little "LL" badges 🙄
Didn't Hitler get miffed and leave?
Go Jesse! 😀
I'm not saying that it's a great idea or that it's been particularly well done, but equally it's not entirely as it's being described here.
Yanks are always stick initials or numbers on their shirts for one reason or another.
Spose we've got to take the one Gold Star off our football shirts because that might annoy the germans too???
Incidentally has it occurred to anyone, that the people of Germany might also have respect for what Jesse Owens accomplished, especially given that it was clearly a burr under the saddle of a discredited leader, whose regime and politics they themselves have constitutionally rejected, and as stated above has left them with a sense of shame. Furthermore, where does this all end, do we re write history and delete the bits that people might be uncomfortable with? And again, has it occurred to anyone, that American Athletics may just also be ashamed of the fact that Jesse Owens was not treated well in his own country, and that this first serious return to the site of his greatest success might just be their chance to redress that injustice, by paying him respect.
FFS if the Germans are upset its up to them to express it, if the Yanks feel the need to celebrate the fella thats up to them. Why does it have to be so flaming negative??
G, I agree with you about people being too worried about offending others but you've got it the wrong way round. When the idea was mooted, someone should've had the sense to say "don't give me any crap about offending black people and, no, I'm not a nazi but your idea is petty, nationalistic, 73 years overdue (or only 29 if it's his death you're honouring) and I reckon you should stop stirring the shit"
Americans are simple folk. None of the above will have gone into the thinking about putting Owen's initials on their kit.
They don't know, or care, about Owen's treatment by his own country.
They don't know, or care, that the American army which helped to liberate Europe was segregated on racial grounds for reasons which closely mirrored Hitler's views (and before you flame me on this, I do know about the Tuskeegee airmen)
They just think that, because of Obama, they can now be a bit triumphalist about their relaxed views about race.
Not that relaxed though. Would he have got elected if he looked and sounded like Robert Mugabe?
One hopes not. Even Zimbabwe can't bring itself to actually [i]elect[/i] Mugabe, and that's with some innovative coercive techniques.Would he have got elected if he looked and sounded like Robert Mugabe?
crouch_potato
you've missed my point
you should have said: One hopes he would have been
i.e if American is truly racially enlightened, even someone who looks and sounds like Robert Mugabe could have got elected.
But personally, I doubt it.
Bit of a joke really as parts of the US of A still had racial segregation into the 60's and is still considered by many to be racially intolerant state
did anyone spot Tyson Gay after the 100m final - Asufa Powell took the loss very well, but gay was acting like a proper spolied brat 🙂
If your a black athlete the JO may be quite important?
Maybe a bunch of British white males (lets face it, that's pretty much all of us) probably shouldn't speculate as to why black American athletes should choose to honour Jess Owens. But then thats STW.
Usual morally-relative drivel, Eldridge I think those athletes are familiar with the fact that the US didnt turn into an oasis of inter-racial harmony on Owens return home with four gold medals. And yet they choose to honour him nontheless......
According to you
US = Nazi Germany and present day Black athletes too stupid to realise it.
That would be that eternal staple of the bedsit socialist False Consciousness. Look it up.
I'm sure the thinking probably went - Berlin -> that reminds us of Jesse Owens -> we have just eleceted a black leader -> wouldnt it be nice if we commemorated JO's success in berlin and and at the same time highlighted OB's presidency
why would any german be offended? I'd have thought they would be quite happy to be involved in it.
people are reading too much into this i fear 🙂
"Maybe a bunch of British white males (lets face it, that's pretty much all of us) probably shouldn't speculate as to why black American athletes should choose to honour Jess Owens"
Why ever not? Is it taboo for some reason ??
"According to you[b]r speculation as to how a 21st century German might feel[/b]
US [b]attitude to black people with specific reference to the 1936 olympics similar to [/b] Nazi Germany and present day Black athletes too [b]socially and politically insensitive and/or thick & easily led[/b] to realise [b]how insulting it might be to their hosts to make a unique gesture whose "special" nature presumably must depend on the nazi context since they haven't honoured other black olympians (Owens wasn't even the 1st champion)[/b]."
"That would be that eternal staple of the bedsit socialist False Consciousness. Look it up"
... think you're prob wanting "liberal fascism" or similar here, rather than false consciousness - so as to be clear that you're (mis)using terms in a derogatory fashion 😉
"why would any german be offended?"
Nazis are like that - take a huff at the drop of a hat
ah thanks for clearing that up for me scaredypants.
keep using [b]bold[/b] it will make it so much easier to find an idiot next time I need one.
(pssst, take a look at your username above) 😉
nope, still nothing. I'm trying to read that post of yours but it's making my head hurt. Did you really type all that out yourself or did a chimp in a jumpsuit just randomly hit your keyboard with a pair of drumsticks and hit "send post"?
hmmm, apologies to all for following mcboo onto the playground.
stopping now, unless some <idiot bold sans serif> discussion </> breaks out.
If you think about anything too much you can make it into all sorts of things.
Jessie Owens = Good
Nazi Olympics = Bad
Therefore US team wearing his initials in the same Berlin stadium at a "free" games = good.
Anything else is just trying to come up with controversy = bad
Jessie Owens = Good
Better (in any sense of the word) than ANY other US athlete, white or black and therefore deserving of a special gesture 70+ years on and 20-odd after his death ?
I don't think so, which leads me to
because Nazi Olympics = Bad
Which seems to me to be a pretty insensitive act on behalf of.....
After all, it's not like he triumphed despite being downtrodden by nazi oppression. He lived and trained in the US and was apparently treated the same as all other athletes while in Germany, no segregation etc.
As far as I'm concerned, the German geezer (LL) should be celebrated for potentially risking his career/welfare by helping & befriending Owens in the face of a system that upheld a view that labelled him as subhuman.
"Anything else is just trying to come up with controversy = bad" Yeh, I wish I hadn't read this thing. It's not like I stay awake at night, seething at the injustice.
But I do think it's a decision that's in bad taste. Whether it's actually offensive to Germans - ❓