is proper fubar, I don't get it.
the heads of our national security having to go public like naughty kids,
soldiers doing their job, in court for doing so,
and a on the run terrorist suing us for being tortured in Somaliland
WTF is happening..... 🙁
The do gooders have control of the asylum.
weird stuff happens at the boundaries so that obvious stuff can happen either side of it. Sometimes on the face of it that weird stuff seems to be on the wrong side of the line, sometimes it gets reigned back in, sometimes it's actually on the right side of the line, but it's hard to tell from 140 character headlines, and on rare occasions it stays the wrong side of the line for whatever reason.
It's not the end of civilisation, just stuff testing the line.
Well at least the rest of the United Kingdom is alright.
Not sure that shooting an injured unarmed prisoner amounts to soldiers doing thier job to be honest . Given that they described their actions as breaching the geneva convention i don't think they saw it as doing their job either.
"There you are. Shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."
and
"Obviously this doesn't go anywhere, fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention."
and
"Err, anybody want to do first aid on this idiot?""No"
"Nope."
"Could put one in his head if you want? Take your pick."
(all recorded for posterity).
If that's a bunch of squaddies "doing their job"...
I'm fairly certain that allegedly murdering someone and then attempting to cover it up is not in the queens regs, if that is what you are referring to.
SNAFU
I have no interest in those over the borders ernie, I care about this England.
What about over the Afghan border ?
Not sure my Grandad Father or Brother signed up to defend a country that was going to abduct and torture people either. Infact I know for sure that my Grandad and father were told they were fighting to stop that sort of thing. The Terrorist is sueing us because he believes with good reason we organised or carried out his torture.
is that where they are holding the court case??
Security services and the military being accountable for their actions sounds good to me. Sounds like the actions of a progressive country.
Not sure my Grandad Father or Brother signed up to defend a country that was going to abduct and torture people either. Infact I know for sure that my Grandad and father were told they were fighting to stop that sort of thing. The Terrorist is sueing us because he believes with good reason we organised or carried out his torture.
If they were there for d-day they wouldn't have taken prisoners in exactly the same way.
is that where they are holding the court case??
In fairness ton, that just sounds irrational fella. How can you care about a case just because it's been tried in England, but not care that it happened abroad? AFAIK, court-martials don't happen on a whim. Would you prefer that the military just ignore this kind of behaviour? Or would you prefer that he be tried by the "enemy"? I suppose, as it's not in England, you'd probably not be too concerned.
If they were there for d-day they wouldn't have taken prisoners in exactly the same way.
You're mixing up a "battle" with "abducting and torturing".
HTH.
let the spies spy
let the soldiers defend and protect
and let the terrorists go see their virgins, imho that is.
dd, shush I was not talking to you.
let the soldiers defend and protect
Because that's exactly what they were doing.
English and proud eh ?
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With the greatest respect Ton, you are talking shite.
yossarian - MemberWith the greatest respect Ton, you are talking shite.
cos you don't agree with it? mmmmm 😆
5thElefant A) read the post you quoted it was about abduction and torture not combat. B) have you seen the allied casuality figures for Dday you clearly know what was invoved, it is not hard to see why troops storming a beach in full on combat had little time or oportunity to take prisoners in the heat of combat . Notwithstanding that, 12,153 prisoners were taken up to 26 July. D Day Was very very different to Afganistan and not taking prisoners is very different to taking a wounded prisoner post combat then killing them out of hand.
Fwiw my own personal belief is that the whole Afghanistan farce is a farce.
The recording is a brief insight into the realities of conflict and the reality that the people that Governments send to foreign shores to kill people who our governments dont like are not the nice cuddly 'heroes' our puerile media portray them as.
They are in fact extremeley rough and violent men, if they were not rough and violent they would not be there.
Its highly likeley that this sort of thing has occurred many times before and will continue to happen and when caught they will no doubt be dealt with very severely.
Senior officers will readily sacrifice these men as will many others who sneer at the 'squaddie' just remember that some of them guys hobbling past the Cenotaph this Sunday will have seen and possibly done similar things.
As Orwell said : We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
cos you don't agree with it? mmmmm
Actually because you can't justify any of it. I could go into some detail on this if I had to but I'd just be repeating what others have already posted ^^
I'm not convinced what happened is any different at all. They killed the enemy on the battlefield.
Maybe politician shouldn't ask them to kill people in the first place.
I heard some of the later testimony from those soldiers on the radio. Claimed they thought the guy was already dead and it was all macho posturing bravado. Sadly, it kind of rang true. All about context.
Well the Soilders were not acting within the regs, but until you have walked a mile in there shoes then then you shouldnt really be passing judgement
cheekyboy, correct, but I for one, am happy to have these rough nasty men looking after my back while I sleep happily in my bed.
PSA: Niggle Farridge on the box tonight (BBC QT) in an odd looking bunch. He may have some comments/shouts on all this.
until you have walked a mile in there shoes then then you shouldnt really be passing judgement
Presumably that's why it's the court martial that will be doing the judgement passing ?
'Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them'. Probably misquoted but you get the idea.
Next thing, they'll be putting newspaper editors in the dock just for listening to people's phone messages. It's political correctness gone mad.
Next thing, they'll be putting newspaper editors in the dock just for listening to people's phone messages. It's political correctness gone mad.
whoa....some slimy bastards get what they deserve.... 😀
Security services and the military being accountable for their actions sounds good to me. Sounds like the actions of a progressive country.
Oh shush you with your common sense and facts. 😉
Hopfully goes to a normal court, they tend to be more leanient from whats been reported about in similar cases, the judge tends to go with that its to hard to judge the actions of the Soilders whilst they are going through what there going through out there
If the soldiers did what the video seems to show they are rightly in court and should face the consequences of their actions.
I haven't listened to the recordings yet, but I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that we'll be hearing northern accents?
Ah, they were only obeying orders. I invoke Godwin and claim my £5Maybe politician shouldn't ask them to kill people in the first place.
northern accents?
no yunki, they were English not Scottish..... 🙄
whilst they are going through what there going through out there
They were under such pressure that they had time to have a laugh about it all, and the shooter had the presence of mind to warn his mates about him breaking the Geneva Convention (but when has such a silly thing as a convention stopped us anyway)? Maybe they should just present "You weren't THERE MAN!" as their defence and leave it at that.
[I]No surrender to al-Qaeda[/I]
I'll go with that.
What are their terms?
This England?
I like to think I can decipher sensationalism, but still..
for which, she should have been jailed.
The age old conundrum with fighting body count wars that probably shouldn't be fought in the first place. When one side has to obey the 'rules' and fight with one hand tied behind their backs, but the other can, and will, do what the hell it likes. Probably being deliberately brutal to illicit a brutal response that is a PR disaster for the side that actually has to answer to someone. No army to fight as such, no line to break or territory to 'win' as such.
If any British soldier is found to have committed a war crime, he will, most likely, face some consequences. That is just and right. But what about the afghans who (certainly in the days of the Russian misadventure) would skin their prisoners alive, probably after using them as concubines for a few months? The fact that they were aided and abetted by the west at that time is irrelevant before anyone obviously mentions it. Many afghans have committed heinous crimes, where is their court martial?
Two wrongs don't make a right, but I for one would be very wary of being critical of anyone who has served in that vipers nest that is Afghanistan. Very easy to take the moral high ground when you haven't spent months not knowing if the next person you see might just shoot you in the back.
Have you got the polo shirt esselgruntfuttock ?
I'm rather encouraged by the fact that those we hand guns to are expected to uphold the law.
dannyh, you have just put in words what I was trying to put over.
You can have presence of mind and still be under pressure and suffering from stress, they did the the £$%^& a favour he wasnt going to around much longer after being struck by a round from an Appache. Its just a shame they didnt have the presence of mind to turn the camera off or just leave him to a long death until he heads to meet the 72 virgins that I hope end up being 80 year old nuns
that is twice ernie......tut tut tut.
You can have presence of mind and still be under pressure and suffering from stress, they did the the £$%^& a favour he wasnt going to around much longer after being struck by a round from an Appache. Its just a shame they didnt have the presence of mind to turn the camera off or just leave him to a long death until he heads to meet the 72 virgins that I hope end up being 80 year old nuns
I think your reasoning is becoming clear to now. It's gone from "walk a mile in their shoes" to "they did the [expletive deleted] a favour."
Charming.
What a strange thing to say ton. Still, I'm sure you know what you meant.
bearnecessities - MemberThis England?
I like to think I can decipher sensationalism, but still..
The punishment should be "Taken".
😡
p/s: The rule of war is written by the winner.
that is twice ernie......tut tut tut.
Do you have the t-shirt too ton? Navy/black would be rather fetching on you I reckon.
Why is the west's enabling of a load of nasty bastards 'irrelevant'? Seems a bit of a cop out to me.
[I]Have you got the polo shirt esselgruntfuttock ?[/I]
Not that one but 2 others. Dark blue with the prison service crown logo on the left breast. I only wear them when on night shift or C&R training. Is it relevant?
Well of course it's relevant ! I posted a picture of a polo shirt with a slogan and you responded by saying that you agreed with it. Why wouldn't ask if you owned one ?
Yep pretty clear what I've written but just remember theres a past, a history, a build up to actions and reactions and mistakes that get made not everything is as black and white as you read it in the papers
A past and a history..
Indeed Afghanistan, without doubt one of the poorest nations on Earth, invaded and brutalised by foreign devils for thousands of years.. I think I'd be a bloody vipers nest too in their shoes.
who was that brainy bloke who said, all is fair in love and war?
You want to shoot your missus ?
Yunki.
I agree entirely. It's just that the injustices of thousands of years would not be the first thing on my mind if I was in a firefight in Afghanistan.
Context is everything, you don't get more visceral context than active service in a guerrilla war.
no ernie, just terrorists.
Surely, the best thing we can do, if we really are the bigger man, is say look 'ere fine fellows, you boys have had the shitty end of the stick for about as long as anyone should ever have to bare..
You must all be absolutely broken, why don't you all just sit back and chill out for a bit.. Live the dream.. And as long as you promise to be gentlemanly with your Chiquitas (the prettiest women on the planet remember) then we will watch your backs for a few thousand years, buy your beers (well, sweet teas probably) and all that and make sure that you get everything that you need..
You crazy little bastards have hung in there against overwhelming odds, repelling superpower after superpower.. You deserve a rest Afghanistan..
Are we really the bigger man though?
I very much ****ing doubt it, silly little boys every last man jack of us
Well it wouldn't be fair to shoot the missus, would it. So not all's fair in love and war. No idea who said it but it's a pretty dumb thing to say.
it is only dumb cos you don't agree with it innit ernie. like anything you don't agree with, simply dumb.
To be fair "All's fair in love and war" is exactly how the terrorists justify their atrocities.
Sorry I thought we all agreed - that it wouldn't be fair to shoot the missus. OK, fair enough.....it's a valid point and not dumb at all.
"All's fair in love and war"
I don't understand this ^^^ ... 🙄
There is nothing about fair or unfair in war, you exterminate your opponents and rewrite the rules in your "image". My advice is go for all out war by nuking everyone to kingdom come ... reduce maggot population.
As for love ... thou shalt not look at others' properties ... 😆
crankboy - Member
To be fair "All's fair in love and war" is exactly how the terrorists justify their atrocities.
Yeah, but, um.
I'm still unaware what we are doing in Afghanistan, aside from bravely shooting wounded soldiers for a laugh whilst trying to hide away from the Geneva convention,
The only thing its achieved as far as I can tell is to add many billions to the national debt and motivate a group of lads from Yorkshire to blow themselves up on the underground
ton - MemberNext thing, they'll be putting newspaper editors in the dock just for listening to people's phone messages. It's political correctness gone mad.
whoa....some slimy bastards get what they deserve....
Posted 56 minutes ago #
the sun etc do it a little bit = slimy bastards.
government does it wholesale = i'm sleepin good tonight.
something passed between soldiers in the battlefield is one thing. soldiers recording it on their go-pro and keeping it for posterity is another entirely.
kimbers - MemberI'm still unaware what we are doing in Afghanistan, aside from bravely shooting wounded soldiers for a laugh whilst trying to hide away from the Geneva convention,
The only thing its achieved as far as I can tell is to add many billions to the national debt and motivate a group of lads from Yorkshire to blow themselves up on the underground
[b][i]"A war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war. Our eventual evacuation of the country resembled the retreat of an army defeated"[/i][/b]
That was the conclusion of British army chaplain G.R. Gleig after the First Anglo-Afghan War of 1839 - 1842.
If nothing else no one can accuse us of inconsistency.
Ernie...the polo shirt & the slogan on the badge (on it) are 2 completely different things.
Just to clarify..I agree with, 'no surrender to al-qaeda' (why wouldn't I/we?)
So, just so you get it, I own 2 polo shirts neither of which have that logo on but I agree with that logo.
Must say though, you win the wind up merchant of the decade award. 😉
They do matching ski-wear too.
Well the Soilders were not acting within the regs, but until you have walked a mile in there shoes then then you shouldnt really be passing judgement
Does that apply to every murderer, or just the ones employed by the armed forces? What a load of shite.
Must say though, you win the wind up merchant of the decade award.
Why thank you, that means a lot to me and is much appreciated. Although I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I posted a picture of a polo shirt and you said you agreed with the slogan printed on it. It seemed reasonable to ask you if you had one. I'm not sure why you think I'm winding you up. Perhaps you're winding me up ? 💡
perhaps you are talking shyte ernie.
perhaps you posted the pic for another reason?
[i]On 2 June 1982 during the war between Argentina and the UK over the Falkland Islands, approximately 1,200 Argentine POWs were being detained in a sheep shed at Goose Green on East Falkland Island.
Concerned about piles of artillery ammunition near the shed, the prisoners asked for and obtained permission to move it a safe distance away from them.
Unfortunately, as several of them did so, some of the ammunition exploded, possibly due to booby traps set earlier by Argentine soldiers to kill British troops. Three POWs died and nine others were badly burnt. A British medic at the scene, Sergeant Fowler, assessed one of the still burning men to be fatally injured and suffering horribly, and shot him to end his misery[/i]
War crime?