Respect is earned.
Questioning the powers of the police is essential to ensure they are doing the job we expect, without exceeding their mandate.
Blind acceptance of authority is a dangerous path.
On an organisational level by the IPCC yes, by individuals that's damn near impossible or just being a dick.
An individual police officer can't 'earn' respect, they've got a job to do from day 1. It's not too much to ask in a civilized society that the police are respected by individuals. In the same way individuals don't have to go out of their way to ingratiate themselves to the police.
Just look at the "can i go outside and exercise during lockdown" thread, there's rabid loons at one end baying for the blood of anyone more than 2km from home. And at the other end there's the "*** da police, ain't no po-po gonna catch me on my steezy enduro rig", said by someone who was more likely from Compton West Berkshire than Compton LA and has never actually had professional dealings with the Police but has suddenly found their opinions on the wrong side of the rules and is determined to rebel against authority.
I’ve have had a gun pulled on me by Spanish guardia (but never for an instant felt threatened),
Why on earth did they pull a gun on you?
Why on earth would you not feel threatened?
Or did it not happen?
Respect or fear?
I thought I'd see if there were any of the Midlands force's finer moments in the Brimingham Evening Mail and found this just three days ago:
Edit: I was being stuborn and the Spanish Guardia no doubt thought it easier to wave a gun at me than physically manhandle me. I knew he wasn't going to use it, he knew he wasn't going to use it, it was his way of saying FFS just do what I'm telling you, I did.
When I was working for Welsh Water I got walked off a farmer's property at shotgun point which was far more worrying as mad farmers do occasionally shoot people. More worrying was going back with a police escort, because the local bobby wasn't armed.
On an organisational level by the IPCC yes, by individuals that’s damn near impossible or just being a dick.
I disagree.
I think we have one of the finest police forces in the world.
Precisely because of the policing by consent model.
We employ them to enforce the laws we pass via our elected politicians.
That's their job.
We respect them because for the most part they do their job without exceeding their mandate.
However, it's everyone's job to question authority.
Blind acceptance of authority is equally as dangerous as mindless disregard.
I've only had a couple of interactions with Police where I've been in the wrong - a couple of speeding offences a long time ago. In those cases I was pretty deferential as I was aware it would make a difference to the outcome.
However, in the years since I've had several engagements with Police where I've generally always come aware from them a little angry and frustrated. I feel I'm an intelligent, educated, articulate and polite person (some may disagree 🙂 ), but despite that, for the most part I've always found the Police tend to 'speak down' to you. Using an ego-state model ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#The_ego-state_(or_Parent%E2%80%93Adult%E2%80%93Child_(PAC))_models ) to describe it, they always fall into a parent-child interaction with them as the parent, rather than an adult-adult one which I'm used to with pretty much every other circumstance in my life.
I don't think this is conscious and deliberate on the part of the Police. I think that because the Police spend 99% of their time dealing with dickheads, they just automatically fall into treating everyone like that. The problem is, when you start off treating people like children, then they continue to behave like that, and treat Police the way we see above.
If you try and move the relationship towards an adult-adult one, some officers see it as a challenge to their authority and the situation deteriorates.
A lot of people have stereotypes of police being like the off duty copper in the above link.
when did it ever become acceptable to say "respect needs to be earned"? Surely giving respect to your fellow, should be a given right, and then it is up to individuals to have respect lost. I saw this in the army a lot, it's b0ll0x, it hamppers training and cohesion and drives a divide and conquere mentality. Likewise in the business world i see this, it's destructive and harks of a "im better than thou" until proven otherwise attitude.. Its cockish.
anyway, back on point, this happens at family level, if your elders are feeling hard done by, this is amplified by the younger dis-enfranchised people. A lack of schooling, a lack of other means to occupy mind and opinions leads to a general downward spiral of you are all against me, theefore i must defend myself at all costs..
The general UK aproach to policing is spot on i think, no way would i want the US system and keeping arms (guns) off the streets shouldalways be the way forward.
However, it’s everyone’s job to question authority.
Blind acceptance of authority is equally as dangerous as mindless disregard.
So a police officer says do something, do you
a) do something
b) have an argument about how he is infringing your civil liberties and question on which specific law he is acting under the authority of to ask you do do that something
c) shout "**** da pigs" and nick his bike
Because B to my mind is just a middle-class articulate version of C.
Policing by consent works as long as everyone consents. Not just consenting to everyone but them consenting because they've drawn their line in the sand and are determined that only people on the other side of it are wrong.
when did it ever become acceptable to say “respect needs to be earned”?
I don't believe it's ok to treat people badly until they prove otherwise.
I respect the UK police because they do a horrible job very well. Same with the armed forces.
They do an awful job that I could not do which is worthy of my utmost respect.
But I don't automatically respect someone just because they wear a uniform, have been elected to parliament or own lots of land. I will treat them decently and respect them if they excercise their power in a way that benefits our society. I will not defer to them automatically because of the power inherent in their position.
So a police officer says do something, do you
a) do something
b) have an argument about how he is infringing your civil liberties and question on which specific law he is acting under the authority of to ask you do do that something
c) shout “**** da pigs” and nick his bike
It depends on what they are asking me to do.
If it's not an unreasonable request I'll politely and happily comply, with a smile.
I'll do this even if I don't understand why the request was made - I don't know what might be going on in the background, I won't argue and will do what I'm asked.
If it's not a reasonable request, I'll politely decline.
No need to be a dick about it.
A lot of the critical ideas from left were right to question the police but otoh at some point, it just becomes destructive of the ability to actually govern a society. Only in the humanities faculty can it be contemplated that a society with no power imbalance is possible, or if you knock over all western institutions then something utopian will magically replace them.
These people demanding that the police earn their respect I despair at. Who do they think they are? A king? No, you are just another citizen like any other. A default position of refusal-defiance is neither adult nor reasonable. The police should be trusted but on the condition of being subject to scrutiny and accountability or our society will go down the shitter. Any idiot can be anti-authority but one needs to also learn to obey.
No, you are just another citizen like any other.
As is a police officer.
A default position of refusal-defiance is neither adult nor reasonable.
I agree. As I have stated above.
Any idiot can be anti-authority but one needs to also learn to obey.
And any idiot can do what they are told, but one also needs to learn to think for one's self. 🙂
It's not an either/or.
when did it ever become acceptable to say “respect needs to be earned”? Surely giving respect to your fellow, should be a given right, and then it is up to individuals to have respect lost.
Nah, that sounds a tad quaint in the 21st century. With me it may well be an age thing and I do agree with Rusty's way of thinking.
Rusty Spanner
Subscriber
No, you are just another citizen like any other.As is a police officer.
But that's absolutely not the case is it? They've the right to insist and failure to comply might result in a state sponsored fisty cuffs and/or detainment. Any other (non franchised) citizen try this and see where it gets you...
So a police officer says do something, do you
a) do something
b) have an argument about how he is infringing your civil liberties and question on which specific law he is acting under the authority of to ask you do do that something
c) shout “**** da pigs” and nick his bike
The way you’re asked usually influences the way you respond.
Even your otherwise law abiding middle class person will react badly if an officer barks orders at them without obvious reason. Equally a scrote may be completely compliant if asked in a joshing and friendly manner.
Sadly, both public and Police often get their approaches and responses wrong.
thisisnotaspoon
Subscriber
So a police officer says do something, do you
a) do something
b) have an argument about how he is infringing your civil liberties and question on which specific law he is acting under the authority of to ask you do do that something
c) shout “**** da pigs” and nick his bike
Or (D) Certainly officer, could you explain why you've asked my to do that and I'll happily comply.
That's not unreasonable is it? We're not automatons...
<edit> Or wot Ben said ^
And any idiot can do what they are told, but one also needs to learn to think for one’s self.
So all those teens/20-somethings abusing the PCSO were masters in critical thinking?
Most people do think for themselves and choose quite reasonably to follow the law and cautiously respect the police.
Or (D) Certainly officer, could you explain why you’ve asked my to do that and I’ll happily comply.
not always practicle to do this though, especially if you are being moved on etc rather urgently..
The last time I spoke to a pcso, it was when he threatened to arrest me for cycling on a cycle path. He refused to turn round to see the sign saying it was a cycle path, and just continued telling me walk or get arrested. I'm all for giving respect to the police, but I refuse to give respect to someone that is clearly a massive ****.
All this can be sorted in court after the event.
"No, you are just another citizen like any other.
As is a police officer."
But that’s absolutely not the case is it? They’ve the right to insist and failure to comply might result in a state sponsored fisty cuffs and/or detainment. Any other (non franchised) citizen try this and see where it gets you…
While I totally agree with this, the flip side is they could be any normal citizen - as in, any british teenager could decide they wanted to be a policeman/woman.
Its not a military peacekeeping force made up of the second sons of nobility preventing an uprising; it isn't limited to a certain caste or race with the ulterior motive of keeping the "lowers" in their station.
Sui
Member
Or (D) Certainly officer, could you explain why you’ve asked my to do that and I’ll happily comply.not always practicle to do this though, especially if you are being moved on etc rather urgently..
Absolutely agreed. And the issue is, a 'one size fits all' attitude is employed where the e. g. approach to clearing the Manchester Arena is applied to cycling on the path... Nuance is everything and circumstances should dictate. Sadly, they often don't.
@ayjaydoubleyou They stop being 'normal citizens' when they join the gang. Yes they're sourced from the Citizens pool but being, a 'normal citizen' and a member of the Police Force are mutually exclusive.
I think unfortunately that it very much depends on the actual experiences that people have with the police, and as in all walks of life you can get those who make it harder for the rest of their colleagues. It only takes one incident to potentially ruin longer term relationships.
I have had almost no dealings with serving police officers in the course of their duty. However, the only one that I can remember was unfortunate and it has to my shame perhaps, coloured my attitude towards them ever since.
One came to interview my 19 year old brother at home in 1982 about a road accident he had been involved in. I listened to the very reasonable and amicable conversation and then later saw the transcript of the officers interview. It bore very little relation to the actual experience, making my brother out to be an obstructive witness. Nothing could be done about it apparently.
In the early 2000’s I worked with a retired policeman (in his late 40’s)who was a really easy bloke to get on with and with whom I had a lot in common. However one day he got into a series of reminiscences about the time as a young West Midlands officer he had been sent to Yorkshire to ‘police’ the miners strike. I was shocked about some of the things he was quite blasé about- how the ‘lads culture’ of staying in dorms away from their normal base For weeks seemed to enhance the capacity for extreme antipathy towards the local people etc.
I should have added that one of the people I cycle with is a policeman and is a really nice, straightforward bloke, if a little crazy on a bike at times.
Let's be honest, the vast majority of people posting here have limited interactions with the police and making rash generalisations about "the police" as one homogeneous mass based on talking to a couple of coppers once probably isn't a fair conclusion.
AS for the OP's question: Perhaps your perceived lack of respect stems from a belief that the police don't have any real power, or rather are highly unlikely to exercise their powers unless you've done something serious or otherwise given them no other option. It's the same principle as scrotal kids gobbing off at teachers, "what are you gonna do? You can't touch me." With no perceived consequences to their actions there's a certain mindset which will push things as far as they can and do as they damn well please.
Let’s be honest, the vast majority of people posting here have limited interactions with the police and making rash generalisations about “the police” as one homogeneous mass based on talking to a couple of coppers once probably isn’t a fair conclusion
I don’t actually think most are making ‘rash generalisations’ to be fair, you are correct many like myself have had very limited interactions, unfortunately they were not entirely positive but I for one never said that I think all policemen are like the two I mentioned, of course not.
In Spain if you get mouthy they will detain you, they will waste your time(and possibly fine you) and take your ID number and they don't have the numbers problem they have in the UK. However if you are polite and look above 25 you'll be treated well.
250,000 people dead. One PCSO, barely out of school by the look of him, trying to do his part to keep that number down.
And all you lot can do is grind the same old axe based on misconceptions and prejudice.
Introduced in 2002 following the Police Reform Act, so the brainchild of Jack Straw (1997-2001) and/or David Blunkett (2001-2004)
Part 1 Community Support Officers
1.Powers to issue fixed penalty notices1ZA.(1) This paragraph applies if a designation applies it to…
1ZB.Power to issue community protection notices
1A.Power to require name and address
2.Power to detain etc.
2A.Powers to search individuals and to seize and retain items
2B.General power of seizure
3.Power to require name and address of person acting in an anti-social manner
3A.Power to require name and address: road traffic offences
3B.Power to require name and address etc: charity collectors
4.Power to use reasonable force to detain person
4ZA.Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that…
4ZB.Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that…
4A.Power to disperse groups and remove young persons to their place of residence
4AB.(1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to a person,…
4B.Power to disperse groups and remove young persons to their place of residence
4C.Power to remove truants and excluded pupils to designated premises etc.
5.Alcohol consumption in restricted areas
5A.Power to serve closure notice for licensed premises persistently selling to children
6.Confiscation of alcohol
7.Confiscation of tobacco etc.
7A.Search and seizure powers: alcohol and tobacco
7B.Powers to seize and detain: controlled drugs
7C.Powers to seize and detain: controlled drugs
7D.Park Trading offences
7E.Powers to seize and detain: psychoactive substances
7F.(1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies where a designation applies this paragraph…
8.Entry to save life or limb or prevent serious damage to property
8A.Entry to investigate licensing offences
9.Seizure of vehicles used to cause alarm etc.
10.Abandoned vehicles
11.Power to stop vehicle for testing
11A.Power to stop cycles
11B.Power to control traffic for purposes other than escorting a load of exceptional dimensions
12.Power to control traffic for purposes of escorting a load of exceptional dimensions
13.Carrying out of road checks
13A.Power to place traffic signs
14.Cordoned areas
15.Power to stop and search vehicles etc. in authorised areas
15ZA.Photographing of persons arrested, detained or given fixed penalty notices
Too many facts spoil the wrath. 🙂
when did it ever become acceptable to say “respect needs to be earned”? Surely giving respect to your fellow, should be a given right, and then it is up to individuals to have respect lost.
+1
I treat everyone with respect from the moment I meet them, almost everyone I meet does likewise.
That comment was aimed at the institution, not the individual. 😶
As would have been obvious if people actually read the thread.
As others have said he was a PCSO not a PC; what nobody else has commented on (as far as I can see) is he is on his own ~10:1 outnumbered. On top of his normal don’t get confrontational training he now has new advice to keep >2m from the people he is talking to. None of that puts him in a position where he can impose any authority on the situation - and the type of people he was dealing with revel in that. They’ll quickly have learned how far they can push it and to them it’s really a game - like trolling on the internet. I’d be amazed if there weren’t people doing this in every country that’s not a totalitarian police state.
in every country that’s not a totalitarian police state.
With my smartarse hat on I feel compelled to point out that for the last 6 weeks we have been a totalitarian police state.
I feel very upset after watching the clip. Admittedly it's a short clip and we don't know the full situation, but the poor little fella should never have been exposed to that by the police and/or his father.
Most are decent people, most are honest, most are reasonably courteous and respectful, most aren’t racist, most don’t want to hurt people and most want to do a good job. A proportion are pricks, dishonest, have no integrity, are obnoxious and rude, are racist, like to get one over on people and couldn’t care less if they do a good job or not.
And it’s the same in the police.
I feel very upset after watching the clip. Admittedly it’s a short clip and we don’t know the full situation, but the poor little fella should never have been exposed to that by the police and/or his father.
I kinda agree its sub optimal. But then its just the opposite of the clip from Slough.
Person (alegedly) breaks (numerous) law(s)
Police intervene
Person doesnt coopperate
Things escalate
This time the police have the means to escalate in their favour.
What should they have done? Let him get back in the car?
I was more worried by the tazer in a petrol station than infront of the kid!
Have been thinking about this thread and hope it continues, it has mileage. FWIW, I do like the contributions of the OP. There is a skill in asking seemingly simplistic questions which actually require a great degree of thought.
So.
You walk into a supermarket and see two older people on the floor, restraining a younger person.
The young person is obviously being restrained against their will, screaming, crying and in obvious distress, begging to be released and shouting that they are in pain and have done nothing wrong. They are attempting to break free and aiming punches and kicks at the two older people.
You may have seen the two older people force the young person to the floor. One is holding their legs down and the other is holding their arms.
Split second, as a member of the public, what do you do?
If you were a police officer called to this situation by a member of the public, how do you react?
Second situation.
You are a police officer.
There is a legally sanctioned demo in your town.
Things are starting to get out of hand, the demonstators and counter demonstrators have started to get violent and there is a danger to people who have just come to town to do a bit of shopping.
You ask people to disperse for their own safety. A photographer, you're not sure from which side, if any, refuses and continues to put themselves in danger to record what's happening.
How do you treat that person?
Not my words...
Yesterday, the Prime Minister gave a pre-recorded speech in which he attempted to explain the government’s latest strategy for responding to the pandemic. Stay Alert, we were told. But a soundbite does not a strategy make and, mostly, he seems only to have confused people (including senior members of his own government).
“Stay at home as much as possible.”
“Work from home if you can.”
“Limit contact with other people.”
What do these statements even mean? They are so subjective as to be rendered almost meaningless.
But, as ever, police officers out on patrol will be expected to interpret and apply them. And some will accuse those officers of being heavy-handed in doing so, while others will accuse them of not doing enough.
A Copper’s Lot is to be caught in the middle, trying to make sense of things that make almost no sense at all.
The Last Few Days
Last week, the nation marked the 75th anniversary of VE Day. Friday evening’s BBC broadcast included a beautiful musical tribute to key workers and members of the emergency services. Except that the police weren’t featured in it.
There were teachers and nurses, members of the armed forces and farmers, train drivers and shop workers, ambulance crews and firefighters, pharmacists and vets, doctors and bin men and posties. But no police officers.
And I can’t for the life of me understand why we wouldn’t want to acknowledge and appreciate members of the police service too – those remarkable women and men who go where most wouldn’t and do what most couldn’t.
A Copper’s Lot is to be taken entirely for granted, until the moment when we need their help.
The Last Few Weeks
The general media coverage of the policing response to the pandemic has fascinated me. And not in a good way.
From the start of the lockdown the focus has been, overwhelmingly, on the negative – on isolated instances of individual officers misinterpreting or over-reaching their new powers. The early headlines were all about Easter eggs and shopping bags and park patrols and drone flights. By comparison, far less attention was given to accounts of police officers being coughed on, bitten and spat at by suspects claiming to have the deadly virus. Or to tales of officers visiting the elderly, doing their shopping and filling their fridges. Or to stories of the thousands of their colleagues who were simply getting on with the day job – protecting the most vulnerable and pursuing the most dangerous in society.
When it comes to policing, bad news travels much further and faster than good news. And when it turns out that some of the negative stories aren’t even true, the damage has already been done.
I’m no blind apologist for the job I used to do. Sometimes police officers – both individually and collectively – get things terribly wrong. And the consequences when they do can be disproportionately damaging. We have every right right to expect higher standards of police officers than we do of anyone else in society.
But is it too much to ask for a bit of balance? Because, for every negative story told about policing, I could tell you a hundred extraordinary ones – involving the kind of humanity and heroism that would likely take your breath away.
A Copper’s Lot is to ignore the noise and get on with the precious business of saving lives and finding the lost and comforting the broken hearted and confronting the violent and defending the weak.
That remarkable, old fashioned thing called duty.
The Last Few Years
In truth, the media coverage of policing during the last few months has, for the most part, been consistent with coverage during the last few years. And with much of the political commentary too.
For the past decade, the story being told about policing by many politicians and newspapers has been an undeniably hostile one: the police are racist; the police are corrupt; the police are incompetent; the police are unwilling to change. Just as thousands were being cut from their ranks, and billions from their budgets. During this period, one journalist with a more open mind posed me a powerful question.
“Who is standing up for policing in this country?” he asked.
He didn’t think that anyone was.
A Copper’s Lot is to remain in the arena, face marred by dust and sweat and blood, absorbing the relentless criticism of those who don’t count.
It Was Ever Thus
Perhaps it’s always been this way. Perhaps we regard police officers in a fundamentally different way to almost everyone else in frontline public service – the emergency services in particular.
Nurses help people. And we love them for it.
Doctors help people. And we love them for it.
Firefighters help people. And we love them for it.
Paramedics help people. And we love them for it.
Police officers help people too. If you ask most of them why they joined in the first place, they will tell you that it was because they wanted to help people. But that’s not all they do. Sometimes they stop people. They pursue people. They challenge people. They search people. They arrest people. Sometimes they use force to do those things. And, as I have already acknowledged, they don’t always get it right.
Perhaps that’s why we find them a little harder to love.
Because there is a part of policing that is rough – involving the kind of violence and trauma and chaos and catastrophe that most of us would prefer not to think about. Until it visits us, that is.
A Copper’s Lot is to venture repeatedly into the hurting places – in amongst the broken lives and broken bones, the broken hearts and broken homes. And you won’t hear a word of complaint from any of them about those things. Because that’s the job. It’s what they joined to do.
I just think that the rest of us ought to show them a little more appreciation along the way. And not just on the desperate days when one of them has been murdered or in the immediate aftermath of the latest terrorist atrocity.
Policing is an entirely imperfect response to an entirely imperfect world but, for more than twenty-five years, I served alongside a bunch of absolute bloody heroes. The best of them are the best of us all.
https://policecommander.wordpress.com/2020/05/11/a-coppers-lot/
Don't you come on here with your inconvenient truths!
We want to show how edgy and intellectual we are by constantly referring to singular events from several decades ago. Orgreave? Hillsborough? Blair Peach? Stephen Lawrence?
That's the face of modern policing alright and I demand to be allowed to loathe and criticise based on those events and all the others I can think of.
I do apologise, I will go and sit in the nearest cell and await my kicking.
I'm not sure I understand your point Scapegoat. I'm generally supportive of the police, I've never met a copper I didn't get on with, and I've worked with a couple of ex officers - indeed, I work with one at the moment, he's great.
Does that mean we are supposed to forget about "Orgreave? Hillsborough? Blair Peach? Stephen Lawrence?", in case someone thinks we're trying to be edgy? How about Ian Tomlinson? That was only a decade ago, are we allowed to mention that?
I'm the least 'edgy' person you'll ever come across, but I understand why some parts of our society have a different relationship with the police than I do.
I think Thegreatape says everything from our point of view. Bravo!
Not much more to add except...
A large percentage of the UK Population have no contact with the Police.
When they do its usually because something bad has happened. You don't call us when everything is hunky dory.
Everything we do nowadays is recorded. Either by ourselves on bodycams or by members of the public.
The media love to hate the Police. It generates headlines.
The small things that help society are very rarely recorded or publicised. But we can live with that.
just something for you all to think about.
I remember as a young PC having many dealings with a family with issues. They created probably 60% of my workload over a number of years. Mostly minor stuff, petty theft, public order etc. I knew most of them by name and they knew me by mine.
Then one night the eldest was killed in in an RTC.
I had to deliver the news.
Despite everything that had happened between us the father took me to one side and thanked me for everything.
We are all human. Behind each uniform is a mum, dad, sister brother, whatever.
There are over 120,000 Police in the UK. Not all of them are saints.
Does that mean we are supposed to forget about “Orgreave? Hillsborough? Blair Peach? Stephen Lawrence?”
No, of course we mustn't forget. The police certainly haven't. When I did event commander training at any level Hillsborough was used as an exemplar for how things can go very wrong. What happened that day very much informs how large events are planned and policed. The service learnt (and is still learning) an enormous amount from that one day. Decades later, the police have moved to a much better way of doing things, yet no one ever seems to mention that. Hillsborough was cited on page one of this thread as a reason not to trust the police.
Similarly Lawrence. The McPherson report was published in 1999. In the 21 years since then the service has moved heaven and earth to move away from the label of "institutional racism." I can only speak from personal experience, but I can state that the officers on my teams were genuinely shocked by any behaviour or language that even hinted at any forms of racism or bigotry. And yet still folk insist that coppers are all racists etc etc.
I can honestly say that (in my experience) the service I retired from a couple of years ago was very different from the one I joined. Transparency, diversity, not just accepted but very much part of the fabric of the service.
I know that the lessons of the past have been learnt, and will continue to be learnt. The officers and staff deserve credit for that, and yet still we see the same tropes trotted out, as I said, decades later, to describe an organisation that is barely recognisable from those descriptions.
As you said @scapegoat most of us won't ever meet Police officers. That is why we make judgements based on the wider picture of the information provided to us by the media and social media.
The problem with Hillsborough was not the mistakes made in policing the event - the huge issue that still burns brightly for many, many people is the cover up. If you don't get that you haven't learnt a thing. Changing statements, paying bribes, lying and buddying up to the highest level of Government and giving fake accounts to the media - within hours of the tragedy - to ensure the S*n etc paint the picture of blame on civilians. Same as Orgreave, when the Police broke the law, use the media, Government and friends in power to direct the blame to the civilians.
I absolutely understand that the Police forces are a group of many individuals, some absolute saints, but you have to accept that there are some scoundrels too. I genuinely feel that the Police force have come a long way since the dark days of the 80's but there are two outstanding problems, one being that in any organisation you will have people who don't behave as they should and the other is institutionalised discrimination. The whole phrase "institutionalised racism" is about the institution, it's not about individual behaviours. And it is absolutely not about pointing a finger of blame. It is about acknowledging that systems and ways of working lead to inadvertent racism. And it is about the perception within the community, not your perception! And this is of particular concern with the role-out of automated facial recognition and tracing. I am sure great improvements have been made in individual behaviours and language. The problem now is things like stop and search and policing of regions with deprivation without the community feeling like they are being singled out. Their lived experiences still seem to be very different to a nice middle class suburb.
The problem with Hillsborough was not the mistakes made in policing the event – the huge issue that still burns brightly for many, many people is the cover up. If you don’t get that you haven’t learnt a thing. Changing statements, paying bribes, lying and buddying up to the highest level of Government and giving fake accounts to the media – within hours of the tragedy – to ensure the S*n etc paint the picture of blame on civilians. Same as Orgreave, when the Police broke the law, use the media, Government and friends in power to direct the blame to the civilians.
You've answered your own question in the same context that I have been trying to argue. The cover-up is as old as the tragedy itself. If you think the cover-up is indicative of current behaviour then you have, I'm afraid, proved my point.
