[Closed] The Way Police Get Treated

You're imagining it.

Sum balance here

Easy to do when the Police are unarmed..
(I'm not advocating for armed police, though I live in Canada now so it's irrelevant)

Idiots being idiots.

Sum balance here

That doesn't address what I am asking about. Individual bad acts by individual officers can and do happen everywhere.

I am asking about a cultural approach to police I perceive here in the UK that sees people treat police with more derision and less inherent social respect than they get in other countries.

EDIT:

Easy to do when the Police are unarmed

That's the sort of thing I'm wondering. Is it because they are unarmed, and therefore more like your mate down the pub, only wearing a prefect's badge?

Probably because we let them. Whether or not that’s a good thing is a different question.

Why? Or am I imagining things?

No. Some people seem to view the police as a general enemy rather than another party of society.  Quite what they imagine would happen without a police force I don't know.

The bad apples do the rest no favours and when the organisation closes ranks in some instances to protect the bad apples more reputational harm occurs. (See Tomlinson passim and the services of Cambridgeshire and Northamptonshire just recently). There are some convicted criminals within the police services and these should not be tolerated at all.

I can only really comment on The UK, the US and Australia.

In the U.K. we have a system of “Policing by Consent” the Police try to work with and within the Community. Few people in the U.K. fear the Police and they generally have a good relationship with the communities they serve. The downside of that is they’re open to abuse from people who don’t like them or what they represent.

In the US the Police seem to rely on TOTAL authority and TOTAL compliance from the people they supposedly serve, all that “Sir” bullshit. They seem to think it’s right to use force against someone just because they not doing what they’re told. Some police in some areas are virtually Paramilitary units.

The Australians seemed to be somewhere in between, some were cool, but you never really got the impression they be up for a quick chat. I remember not long after I arrived I was still had that Neighbours/Home and Away view of Australia, I walked passed a late night Drink Driving road block, I waived and said “good Evening lads?” and was told to “**** off out of my sight now or I’ll crack you one” maybe I caught them at a bad time, but it was a bit of a shock.

Some people seem to view the police as a general enemy rather than another party of society. Quite what they imagine would happen without a police force I don’t know.

I was struggling to find the words, but that is pretty close.

I guess every country has a section of society that doesn't like being told what to do, has no sense of social responsibility, will always look for a way round a restriction, like to think they are "sticking it to the man" or whatever. But here we have people who have made it their whole raison d'etre, but they are usually the first to be squealing about their rights if they finally push the Police too far.

I am asking about a cultural approach to police I perceive here in the UK that sees people treat police with more derision and less inherent social respect than they get in other countries.

Respect is earned.
Questioning the powers of the police is essential to ensure they are doing the job we expect, without exceeding their mandate.
Blind acceptance of authority is a dangerous path.

No. Some people seem to view the police as a general enemy rather than another party of society.  Quite what they imagine would happen without a police force I don’t know.

The police are people, just like the rest of us.
It's a hell of a job, I couldn't do it, the majority of people respect the honesty and hard work put in by the vast majority of coppers.
When they do good things, they are respected.
When they do bad things they should be held to account.
And when they are used by the state as a means of oppression, they are hated.

A sense of humour is essential, I would imagine. 🙂
He did get his bike back after all.....

“**** off out of my sight now or I’ll crack you one”

I really want to find myself in a situation where I can use that phrase.

(Without getting battered 6 seconds later)

The UK state, and by extension the police hasn't always covered itself in glory.

Battle of Orgreave, Hillsborough, general Ulster constabulary shenanigans, sectarianism, numerous met scandals, having kids with activists while under cover etc

There are quite good reasons why in certain parts of the uk the police are not seen as some sort of benign force.

At a local level organisational incompetence is an issue, through under resourcing or other reasons. Our local police are every which kind of useless (bottom of the pile nationally). Not the fault of individual officers but that also undermines the whole thing. We often have 1 or 2 officers covering a fairly vast mixed rural / urban area with some badtard rough towns. The scum know it.

In general in the US black people are treated very badly by the police, it's no different here* but they are much less likely to be killed by the police. In consequence many black people in the US really hate the police, much the same as here, but black people here are less likely to shoot police officers. A reprter friend accompanied the police in a helicopter trip over South Central LA, he asked what the banging on the helipocter floor was, and was told it's bullets, people wre just randomly shooting at the helicopter because it has police markings, that's quite scary.

* I'm not saying all UK police are racist but there are enough to be a problem.

I agree with the points about policing by consent and being unarmed. In the Slough case quoted, an additional point is that it was PCSO not a Constable, so with very limited powers. The kind of people who disrespect the police will respect a PCSO even less.

IME German police are more relaxed than their UK counterparts, I find that UK cops often feel the need to dominate situations being vocally aggressive, whether that dealing with a drunken lout, having a word with a bicycle courier for cycling across an empty pedestrianized zone or explaining to 80 year old doris why she can't drive to her sisters in the current lockdown. I have theorised that the UK cops it is being unarmed that might be the cause.

It is actually against the law to argue with the German police, I can't quite remember the specifics, but you have to tread very lightly if they decide to be arsey, ie You can protest your innocence, but you can't tell them their wrong (or you can and get fined forit)and iirc the penalties escalate quite rapidly for what we might consider quite trivial language/statements.

I blame P G Wodehouse

In the US the Police seem to rely on TOTAL authority and TOTAL compliance from the people they supposedly serve, all that “Sir” bullshit. They seem to think it’s right to use force against someone just because they not doing what they’re told.

This is far deeper than just police/civillian relations. The power heirarchy runs through the whole of society. People say stuff like 'oh, you'd better not say that to the boss, he won't like it' even if it's true, as if he is likely to summarily dismiss you because he's the boss and has ultimate power over his employers. Or, if someone's being a dick you can't say anything to them cos don't you know his dad's the boss of XYZ and will make your life hard etc etc.

It's referred to in their cultural output constantly and seems consistent with my direct experiences.

SaxonRider

You explained the behaviour of the violent officer by saying "Individual bad acts by individual officers can and do happen everywhere". Fair enough.

The same can be said of the public. 99% of the interactions between officers and the public will be friendly - we only get to hear about the times the public take the piss, as in the example you gave, or the police beat someone.

I think generally people in the uk are pretty respectful of the police. I am, despite having a fair few run-ins in my younger days.

My respect for the police evaporated when they waited until I was unconscious before stepping in and stopping an assault which resulted in me being taken in for scans etc. Lost teeth and a broken jaw isn't fun. I could see them sitting in the car watching me taking a steel toe cap to the face.
I have friends who are Police, and older family friends who are ex police. The majority are ok, but there are some absolute bell ends. Just like a cross section of society.

I remember when me and Mrs Inkster went to Paris a few years ago on Eurostar. We came out of the Gare du Nord and went to cross the road only to have our path blocked by 4 Policemen and Women styled like Serbian paramilitaries walking 4 abreast. The public had to scatter out of their way.

We both looked at each other and simultaneously said, 'you wouldn't ask them for the time of day would you?'

Seen some dodgy things from police here so not naive but good and bad just like in society. Policing by Consent and no guns probably makes the job a little bit less attractive to psychopaths too. In the UK, being a PC is just too PC for a lot of little Hitlers. The imagw is a bit more Keith Lard than Robocop.

From the U.S., 1971:

Avoid fighting in close quarters. You run less risk by throwing an object than by personally delivering the blow with a weapon you hold in your hand. We suppose this is what pigs refer to as "duty fighting." All revolutionaries fight dirt in the eyes of the oppressors. The British accused the Minutemen of Lexington and Concord of fighting dirty by hiding behind trees. The U.S. Army accuses the Viet Cong of fighting dirty when they rub a pointed bamboo shoot in infected shit and use it as a land mine. Mayor Daley says the Yippies squirted hair spray and used golf balls with spikes in them against his innocent blue boys. No one ever accused the U.S. of being sneaky for using an airforce in Southeast Asia or the Illinois State Attorney's office of fighting dirty when it murdered Fred Hampton and Mark Clark while they lay in bed. We say: all power to the dirty fighters!

Generally positive experiences with the cops in the UK.

I'll never quite forget seeing them on TV as a kid though, being used by Thatcher to break the miners strike.

I think that left a bad taste in people's mouths for at least one generation.

PCSO's just aren't taken seriously by kids though. Used to see one getting harassed outside the school gates of my son's old school.

Many kids are now of the opinion that they are "untouchable" and to a large degree they are. See the lack of respect down to teachers etc etc.

I guess every country has a section of society that doesn’t like being told what to do, has no sense of social responsibility,

I had a conversation once with a friend of a friend of mine, a black guy raised in Dulwich waaay back. He used the Richard Pryor joke to good effect. "My life was sweet, right up until I was 12, when I became a black man". There are parts of society that have a completely different view of the cops to (dare I say it) than the vast majority of folk who inhabit this forum. He'd been stopped by cops as a kid so many times he genuinely couldn't put a number on it. It was routine to the point of part of his daily life, like going to the Co-Op, or having a kick about. He said that one cop had said to him "You are the sort of people that we are protecting society from" ie young black men, It's not a massive surprise then, that parts of our society feel alienated from it.

Click bait. He is not a policeman. He is a PCSO, a cheap way for the Tories to get "bobbies on the beat".

He is instructed not to confront anyone. So if someone confronts him, like in the video, he can do nothing.

Waste of time and money, should be got rid of and the Police force invested in properly.

they arent so tough in interviews, no comment no comment no comment ;0(

Dicks will be dicks

Wether in uniform of Chav/ Ned ( Enter whatever stereotype here ) or police.... it doesn’t matter

There was a video on the suns website of a young PC approaching a bunch of lads in the park encouraging them to split up and leave. Didn't look like they took him seriously and one of them grabbed his bike that he left on the ground and ran off pushing it.no doubt they gave it back but they showed no respect.

I grew up in Southport (coastal town at the nicer end of merseyside) in the 80s. Almost every time i had an encounter with the police they were utter dicks. Not just one officer and no, i wasn't up to no good. Couple that with the stories of how the police tended to behave in 70s and 80s (beating people up, deaths in custody and our old friend racism) then I can fully understand why some people have a deep mistrust of them.

The police now don't seem to be anywhere near as bad as they used to be but you reap what you sow and all that.

but they showed no respect.

Yeah, but most of the folks on this forum (middle aged employed white guys) can "afford" some respect. It's no bother and we can give respect, as we know we'll get protection and respect back as an exchange.

These kids "don't get no respect" They are (in many cops eyes) the folk that they're protecting the likes of you and I from...There's no exchange for them, it's all one way. Those kids know that cop won't come to their aid if they need him to, so their respect has to come from each other.

You and I are being policed by consent, those kids are being policed by enforcement, the cops in this scenario are more like the prison guards than the upholders of civil society

Dicks being dicks is what it comes down to mainly, on both fronts. I’ve always been polite and civil with any officers I’ve dealt with, just as I am with anybody else. They don’t get any kind of special treatment though and if they act like dicks they’ll get called out on it. On balance I’d rather have what we gave than something like the US.

I’ve lived in Spain for the last few years, they’ve got local police, national police and the Guardia Civil. Yes on some occasions they might not be treated with ‘respect’, and inevitable not all of them are model members of the force, but in the majority of cases they certainly are respected. It may help that Spain is somewhat a pre-facist state and has many remnants of bureaucracy (it may help they have guns too) but the examples I’ve seen recently (including the above) deeply saddens me due the the mindless ambivalence to humans endeavouring to carry out their respective roles in globally challenging circumstances.

He is not a policeman. He is a PCSO, a cheap way for the Tories to get “bobbies on the beat”.

Introduced in 2002 following the Police Reform Act, so the brainchild of Jack Straw (1997-2001) and/or David Blunkett (2001-2004)

Part 1 Community Support Officers
1.Powers to issue fixed penalty notices

1ZA.(1) This paragraph applies if a designation applies it to...

1ZB.Power to issue community protection notices

1A.Power to require name and address

2.Power to detain etc.

2A.Powers to search individuals and to seize and retain items

2B.General power of seizure

3.Power to require name and address of person acting in an anti-social manner

3A.Power to require name and address: road traffic offences

3B.Power to require name and address etc: charity collectors

4.Power to use reasonable force to detain person

4ZA.Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that...

4ZB.Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that...

4A.Power to disperse groups and remove young persons to their place of residence

4AB.(1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to a person,...

4B.Power to disperse groups and remove young persons to their place of residence

4C.Power to remove truants and excluded pupils to designated premises etc.

5.Alcohol consumption in restricted areas

5A.Power to serve closure notice for licensed premises persistently selling to children

6.Confiscation of alcohol

7.Confiscation of tobacco etc.

7A.Search and seizure powers: alcohol and tobacco

7B.Powers to seize and detain: controlled drugs

7C.Powers to seize and detain: controlled drugs

7D.Park Trading offences

7E.Powers to seize and detain: psychoactive substances

7F.(1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies where a designation applies this paragraph...

8.Entry to save life or limb or prevent serious damage to property

8A.Entry to investigate licensing offences

9.Seizure of vehicles used to cause alarm etc.

10.Abandoned vehicles

11.Power to stop vehicle for testing

11A.Power to stop cycles

11B.Power to control traffic for purposes other than escorting a load of exceptional dimensions

12.Power to control traffic for purposes of escorting a load of exceptional dimensions

13.Carrying out of road checks

13A.Power to place traffic signs

14.Cordoned areas

15.Power to stop and search vehicles etc. in authorised areas

15ZA.Photographing of persons arrested, detained or given fixed penalty notices

easily
Member
SaxonRider

You explained the behaviour of the violent officer by saying “Individual bad acts by individual officers can and do happen everywhere”. Fair enough.

That's the inequity here. Bobby does wrong, the 'bad apple/individual action' defence is trotted out. Public do wrong and it's seen as some sort of systemic/societal breakdown.

I think generally the scummers find each other be it those wearing blue uniforms or the others wearing shirts the colour of the teams of their choice. I'd like to think things improve as you get beyond the infantry but as the higher ups are drawn from the infantry, it may not necessarily be so...

Introduced in 2002 following the Police Reform Act……….

Your point is?

They have no power of arrest, apart from citizens arrest.

They have 6 weeks training.

They are paid less than a Police Officer.

They carry less equipment.

They are told to avoid confrontation.

They are a cheap way to get "Bobbies on the beat".

If you were getting attacked on the street would you prefer to a see a PC or PCSO come to your aid?

The police are there to maintain the established order of things. In a society divided by class that's what the police are there to defend. So if your striking or demonstrating or street life is perceived as a threat by the establishment then the police are used in an oppressive role, and special units train police in techniques learnt in places like Ireland.

the real problem is the police round here dont think the law applies to them and so loose the respect of the community. I know several people who now carry a PDF on their phone of the current lockdown guidance as the police dont seem to have read or understood it and are enforcing made up rules rather than the guidance. Even in normal circumstances solving crimes seems to be way down their list of priorities.

Your point is?

Straw and Blunkett weren't Tories.

Scapegoat
Subscriber
Your point is?

Straw and Blunkett weren’t

Yeah I didn't make that point to try and avoid being argumentative. Someone was so busy trying to make political capital from their post, they forgot which Govt actually introduced PCSO's... 😉

they forgot whuch Govt actually introduced PCSO’s

I did forget.

However, they were introduced to enhance and support the actual Police force, not replace them. Which is basically what the tories have have done. The current Police numbers are way down what they were in 2002.

You could not be arrested here by a nicer bunch of people. Look at other countries. Disrespect or mouth off the police you get shot with iive rounds and if it is a nicer cop possibly 12 guage bean bag and lastly a taser.

Yeah, I'd much rather be beaten to a pulp, tazed and then pepper sprayed by muscled up, tattooed thug in high viz masquerading as 'the law'.

something especially cynical and nasty about British behaviour toward the police.

Treat as you find.

I've lived in four countries for long enough to have had dealings with the police, the prize for "cynical and nasty" goes to the UK cops. I've have had a gun pulled on me by Spanish guardia (but never for an instant felt threatened), had heavy identity checks with German and French ones (and some highly amusing interviews) but I've never experienced the "cynical and nasty" contempt I've had from British ones (Edit - English ones in fact, the Welsh ones were fine, friendly even) when just minding my own business.