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I’m sure the flagiest place I’ve been was Canada.
First week of July?
National flag, state flag, even some more local flags. Some of the states are more into this than others, particularly Newfoundland.
They do provinces and territories up there.
Ever been to the US? Specially the southern half, or Texas? Now they take their flagging seriously.
some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilizing force in the world. And that plenty of it is still thankful for that
Dear god, where to start!!
You could start by asking if attitudes have changed.
I'd argue that despite this being the 'modern' era, we are still all new to the game of industrialization.
It has been only a few hundred years, of a history spanning about 100,000 years. I say give it all another few hundred and we might all be a bit more cozy together.
Yes, every country has a flag of its own, to identify and stand behind, but is it anything other than that ?, sure it has been usurped by everyone who's bad, by the racists and the hate group, and yup... empire builders but I think too many are reading too much into having one.
You see the republican mob carrying the stars and stripes, and it's flying from the homes of ordinary people who dont stand for bigotry or racism. You see the bnp etc waving it about, and yet again its on mugs and cars and a pile of other things.
Might want to just say that the bad elements are the cause, not the flag they wave about.
If we’re still nailing modern-day Germans to the mast
Out of curiosity, and I’m in no way saying it doesn’t happen, but have you seen someone do this, in person not online, in the last 10 years?
My experience of the English interacting with Germans over an even longer timeframe than that involves (not all at the same time) mountain days, friendship, laughs, beer, shagging, marriage, raising children.
Might want to just say that the bad elements are the cause, not the flag they wave about
I agree, but in similar vein, I don't feel I can wear my favourite black and yellow Fred Perry twin tip currently. It's been ok for 15 years, now wearing it makes me look like a white supremacist.
I think what I was trying to say yesterday is simply that many other countries manage to have a sense of national pride that is not toxic but positive, and so could England.
A flag for them represents the present rather than the past.
Ingerland flag wavers are hardly celebrating slavery or national superiority anyway (when did England last win anything?).
I’ve lived in a few countries and I haven’t seen them put themselves down like the English do. But England really isn’t a bad place and neither are its people.
The countries I’ve lived in besides England include Switzerland, Germany and Sweden which are often held up as role models. But they’re also far from perfect. The way they get portrayed in the media here doesn’t tally with the reality I saw. Tbh my experience is that the four countries are more or less interchangeable.
So, people of England, celebrate the many good things about your country and push for change in the things that aren’t.
IMHO flags in engerland are like Christmas trees, good for Christmas but a bit odd outside of Chrissy 🙂
Although must admit thou,mrs DoD’s mini had a tasteful flag on its roof 🙂
The more you travel, the more you realise we’re all pretty much the same. And yet any perceived difference between one set of people seems to be enough to cause a problem, especially if it’s used as a lever by the unscrupulous.
+1
The more you travel, the more you realise we’re all pretty much the same. And yet any perceived difference between one set of people seems to be enough to cause a problem, especially if it’s used as a lever by the unscrupulous.
+2
I almost always agree with what Orwell has to say on something, and he's very clear that without Patriotism you cannot defeat Nationalism
These men & women don't seem to have an issue with their country's flag...Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their books.
I almost always agree with what Orwell has to say on something, and he’s very clear that without Patriotism you cannot defeat Nationalism
Either that piece has aged badly or George Orwell isn't that clever. From today's perspective, his views on nationalism are absurd, incoherent and untrue.
He seems to regard nationalism as being any belief in a group or idea. If you flip around his use of patriotism and nationalism it makes more sense in a modern context but it's still rubbish.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to s**** at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings."
Nice turn of phrase, our George.
(not all at the same time) mountain days, friendship, laughs, beer, shagging, marriage, raising children.
Reads as a sequence. Be warned...
Ever been to the US? Specially the southern half, or Texas? Now they take their flagging seriously.
Yeah, South Carolina. Out of the cities I'd say you have a point.
While it’s good to appreciate stuff like that it doesn’t make us particularly special, certainly in Europe we are probably behind several nations on most if not all of those measures.
Oh so we only get to dumb down and 'appreciate' the good stuff we've done but have to eternally beat ourselves up for the bad stuff which is no worse than other nations histories. This is the problem with this narrative. Summing up thousands of years of history by one or two periods in our long and illustrious history where, only in the context of modern times and modern values we have not behaved well (slavery was perfectly legal back in the day and many other nations indulged in it and Africa was the global centre for the slave trade and slave market ao it was they who industrialised it). Again, point me in the direction of any country who is totally innocent in this regard. Every nation has had their empire at some stage each as brutal as the other, every nation has been involved in slavery, every nation has had its period of war mongery.
Also It does set us out differently as through our empire we exported those values. and the whole constitution of the USA was copied from our values and structures, not the French, not the Spanish or Dutch. This is significant. You can't sweep stuff like this under the carpet and marginalise it because it is inconvenient to the divisive narrative you want to push. To say that we're fundamentally bad and there is nothing to celebrate or to be proud of about being British is just a nonsense not even worth bothering to counter. Just crack on in your own little world and leave the rest of us to it.
Other nations have followed our lead and though they might be 'ahead' of us (though in reality they are not another myth) the difference is they wouldn't be if it were not for us. We did lead the world regarding basic human rights, freedoms, the rule of law and democracy and basic civilisation setting global standards. We've enjoyed the longest uninterrupted run of democracy and freedoms in modern history which has been continually developed and improved for hundreds of years while Europe was tearing itself apart through revolution after revolution and eventually, many hundreds of years after us, sorted themselves out with setting up as stable democracies. But lets not be proud of that and just 'appreciate' it.
So, people of England, celebrate the many good things about your country and push for change in the things that aren’t.
Exactly this. It's what you want it to be and for the majority of us it would be a positive thing. those that are not obsessed with historical point scoring which is a zero sum game and utterly pointless can just not fly the flag. The question is what are our values TODAY? If you don't subscribe to our values today then you have to ask yourself the question what are you doing here? why do you tolerate living in such a despicable place with such an atrocious history? You can't really feel like that. If I felt like that I'd have up sticks and moved years ago.
So, let me get this right - by being considerate to the darker sides of our past, I'm spoiling it for all the patriots? I'm so sorry, how insensitive of me.
Brevity is the soul of wit, as a great British writer once said.
So full of straw men I don't even know where to start wobbliscott.
No one has ever said there is nothing good about Britain.
However, the legacy of colonialism is especially relevant when you have a prime minister who has said that the problem with Africa is that we aren't in charge any more, and a government who's foreign policy was described witheringly by civil servants as empire 2.0.
And if you want to bleat on about democracy and freedom then why is it people who criticise the UK should leave? Bit hypocritical no?
Ookay.
but have to eternally beat ourselves up for the bad stuff which is no worse than other nations histories.
No. You don't have to 'beat yourself up'. That's not what this is about. You didn't actually DO any of that bad stuff, did you? This is about recognising what was done, and dealing with the toxic legacy of those things. I'll continue this point after the next quote:
But lets not be proud of that and just ‘appreciate’ it.
This is sarcasm of course, so you're saying we should be proud of British achievements. But why? You didn't DO any of those good things either. How can you be proud of something you didn't do? You can however appreciate it, just as you can appreciate the good things that happened in the rest of the world.
You don't get to think of YOURSELF as great simply because you were randomly born in a country where some other great people were also born. Similarly, you don't have to think of yourself as evil because you were born in the same country as some other bad people. But recognising how you've benefitted and continue to benefit from arrangements the effects of which continue to cause problems is very important.
Let's not forget that the money that Brits made trafficking humans on a massive scale and plundering remote countries entered the British economy where it circulated and stayed. It paid for things like universities, which subsequent generations went to and helped them do whatever good things they might've done. The country you see now is stained with the blood of people from every ethnic group in the world. I don't want you to feel bad about this, but I want you to recognise it and behave appropriately. Which essentially means not thinking that you're great because you're British.
Essentially, national pride is bollocks. The difference between national humility and national pride is that the latter is toxic. It results in things like Brexit at one end of the spectrum and wars at the other end. There is no 'we' in the sense of the actions of national governments - 'we' only exist as shared humanity, and that does not stop at the white cliffs or anywhere else.
the whole constitution of the USA was copied from our values and structures, not the French, not the Spanish or Dutch.
No, not exactly. We were an active monarchy at the time, and the US was very specifically concerned with NOT being a monarchy. The founding fathers were strongly influenced by the Enlightenment which was a European thing and had a strong French contingent as well as others. They also drew a lot from Iriquios Confederacy founded by Hiawatha (I bet you've heard the name but probably a lot less than Washington and his mates). The fact you said what you said suggests that either you really want to feel good about having been born in Britain by riding the coat tails of other people who actually did good things; or your education has been biased to make you think there's something inherently good about being British by ignoring the contributions of the non-British.
Very well put molgrips.
Just reading a bit more after posting that and it seems the Iriquois confederacy is likely to have bene founded in the 12th century. Clearly miles ahead of the Brits in the democracy and progress stakes at that point.
But you don't have to feel bad about that - just acknowledge it. None of this is about competition, or who is better than whom.
Let's not forget that a country is nothing more than the limits of a past leader's military power.
While you're having this discussion the Tories can wander through the room and say
"If you're not sure about this flag, can we have it?" and before Dianne has got her shoes on you're watching the room empty as people follow the flag without needing to wonder where they're going...
And that's why education is important.
As for the flag itself, it's just a (rather fetching) design. It's what we attach to it that's important. So it's entirely valid in a sporting context, where competition between nations is a great thing. But not so great in other contexts. That's why we need to have these discussions. I'm sure people who want to use the flag for their own ends would rather we didn't have them.
While you’re having this discussion the Tories can wander through the room and say
“If you’re not sure about this flag, can we have it?” and before Dianne has got her shoes on you’re watching the room empty as people follow the flag without needing to wonder where they’re going…
Newsflash - they already have, hence this discussion.
Nice bit of random misogyny about the black politician, speaks volumes.
Nice bit of random misogyny about the black politician
Ahh, if in doubt shout sexist or racist or both...to an empty room.
Ahh, if in doubt shout sexist or racist or both…to an empty room.
From the person who *randomly* chose the black woman to mock.
Ok comrade, whatever.
*whinges about people being characterised as bigoted
*calls someone a communist
How many people here rigorously vet their groceries, cars, phones and clothing for slave content?
There will be some.
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Dunno about rigourously vet but I do try yeah. I reckon I do quite well in some areas (clothes, food) but bad in others (tech).
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Oh bless, petal - I don't think you need worry yourself.
Pondo, are you this aggressive and unpleasant in real life?
Also, it's possible to care about more than one thing simultaneously. And I guarantee you there's a correlation between people who aren't keen on nationalism and those who make more ethical purchasing decisions.
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Umm no, not really a lot of energy. Just posting about it on here instead of posting about chain wax or whatever.
I don't think anyone's saying 'well I have a great idea to promote racial harmony, but I haven't got time cos I'm so busy worrying about flags'. Sounds a bit like you're clutching at straws if I'm honest, because you are looking for ways to not feel bad.
Thing is though, you need to feel a bit bad, but in a measured way. It wasn't YOU that did the bad things, but you did benefit - and the negative effects are still here. So adjust your worldview to acknowledge this, and then move on. You probably aren't particularly racist, but protesting about these things encourages the people who actually are.
Pondo, are you this aggressive and unpleasant in real life?
Mmm, not really, I wouldn't think. I mean, I wouldn't particularly characterise myself as aggressive and unpleasant on here, but I don't respond well to sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don't agree with.
DO you worry that so much energy goes into symbolism rather than actually doing something? Do you really?
but I don’t respond well to sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don’t agree with.
But I mean...really...u ok? 😀
But yeah, +1
This is all really making me think about whether empire really was as good as I’d previously thought. Now, to start a campaign to rename the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin.
sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don’t agree with
You’re reading quite a lot into me just saying how I feel.
Yes I do worry about this. People paying lip service but not putting their money where their mouth is. Including me. That bothers me.
But I mean…really…u ok? 😀
But yeah, +1
This is all really making me think about whether empire really was as good as I’d previously thought. Now, to start a campaign to rename the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin.
I'm happy to discuss it with anyone, as I am anything, but I didn't need the condescension and I ain't gonna argue. 🙂
One of the aspects that constantly puzzles me on these discussions (as it has on this one) is the "we weren't the only ones to do it" - it's like, I know that, but we're not talking about, say, French colonialism in Africa, or the Spanish conquest of South America, or the Roman conquest of, well, everywhere, or the Mongul invasion of China, etc etc. We're talking about British history - that other states in history did similar bad things to us doesn't justify our dark past, and it doesn't mean, IMO, that we should overlook them because it's inconvenient or unpleasant or "unpatriotic".
It's the 'well the other boys were doing it too miss' excuse innit.
These men & women don’t seem to have an issue with their country’s flag…Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their books.
I actually find athletes/sports people draping themselves in the flag quite depressing. I'm a NUFC-supporting geordie so I get the tribalism thing, but played out at a national/international scale seems a bit silly. What would the olympics look like if you took the nationalism out of it and just had the sport? It would be a whole lot better I reckon. Same with international football. Actually there's no point whatsoever in international football so getting rid of it altogether would be no great loss. And don't get me started on how politicians and others with selfish or nefarious intentions then use the achievements of sports people for their own ends. It's all nonsense really.
Nah, it’s great to have a national team to cheer for in the olympics. I still get joy from watching the achievements and stories of athletes from other countries though. More of the later in coverage of the olympics would be great, but not at the total exclusion of the former.
I actually find athletes/sports people draping themselves in the flag quite depressing
obviously. 😀.
Personally I think if you want shot of Nationalism (and who doesn’t) you have to be a patriot.
The Olympics is all about which country can produce the best athletes with the least detectable doping regime. We wouldn't be able to compare if it was just individuals.
:sarcasticwinkyface:
Did some of you go to those schools where 'everyone' got a prize?
I still get joy from watching the achievements and stories of athletes from other countries though.
Many (probably most) don't though, for no other reason than their nationality, and that's what's depressing about it.
Did some of you go to those schools where ‘everyone’ got a prize?
Not me, no. Why do you ask?
Did some of you go to those schools where ‘everyone’ got a prize?
I was highly competitive, representing both school and county at national level, and was county champion while at school. Our school events were super competitive, and our rugby and hockey players in particular dominated county teams as a result. Sorry... what was you point? That a considered approach to history and identity, especially negative "othering" of people due to where they were born, is the preserve of people who don't like competitive sports, or were taught not to embrace them? That understanding the negative as well as the positive effects of sharing/embracing a flag is only of interest to those that shun sports?