[Closed] The Tube is planning for driverless trains

£52k ACTUALLY ELFIN! Ridonkulous!!

Do you have a link to an article other than in a right-wing rag? Y'know, just for balance, like...

And one which is more in line with the [i]average[/i] tube driver's salary, not some figure concocted from adding together all the possible additional pay that it is 'possible' for a driver to get. Got any figures of the number of drivers who are actually on that figure? No, thought not...

Also; have you considered the cost of living in London? [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region10.stm ]Average house price is around four hundred and nineteen [i]thousand[/i] pounds[/url]. The average London salary is only slightly less than the average tube drivers salary (or more, depending on what figures you use).

So, stop those knees jerking and try to put things into perspective.

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot; it's purpose is to provoke 'debates' online which ultimately lead to mention of that rag oh look it's happened! 😯

Amazing what they can do with technology these days. Automate people's minds so they don't have to think for themselves....

Unfortunately, when humans are involved, mistakes happen.

until automated systems start designing themselves, there's always going to be a human to blame at the end of the line

Ah the Daily Mail defence! 🙄

Same article on BBC, Guardian, Independent, Yahoo.......

There's a lefty poll here -
Best get clicking.
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/oct/25/tube-lines-transport [/url]

Why is it we don't have any sympathy for them?

Who's 'we'? You're not speaking for me mate, or loads of other people. So don't assume you are.

In fact I doubt you're ultimately even speaking for yourself. Judging by many of your posts, I'm not sure you're actually capable of [i]thinking[/i] for yourself to be perfectly honest. Mind you, that would be asking quite a bit for a bot...

[b]TFL: Let's see how cheaply we can run the Tube, and how we can maximise profits.[/b]

[b]RMY: Let's see how we can get the Tube to run for the maximum benefit of passengers and staff.[/b]

That's about the bottom line, profit v people. As it generally is in our society.

I'm with people, cos without them, you woon't have any profit...

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot

And the abuse starts.

Don't get me wrong, sparkeys magic string and flashy lights are the business, I've seen PLCs driving Plants that look like "WOPR" out of War Games.

But the more you automate control of any system, the more contingencies and Hazards you need to consider, and the more labourious and complex commisioning and maintenance become what degree of redundant safety systems do you need are all the sensors and switches used to the correct SIL rating there are a lot of "What Ifs" to consider, it becomes even more fraught when you have metal tubes full of humans traveling at 80mph, not changing a Proxy or a Pressure relief valve properly during maintenance could well make a "Lowly" worker responsible for 200 odd dead people not everyone wants to get on par with a war criminal just for trying to do their job.

There is no choice but to automate.

Levels of service and quality will be vastly improved and the grossly inflated wages for doing unskilled work can be put towards better trains, advanced infrastructure and facilities.

Ah yes the enevitable march to a brave new future, all well and good but when you posh bollocks train is stuck in the yard because the clever widget to fix it hasn't arrived from Japan it sort of knackers your point...

Mass transit systems need to be robust and maintainable both from a Safety perspective and to ensure best possible availability for service, Bells and whistles and replacing the Driver with Jonny 5 will not improve Service.

the trains in lyon work perfectly well without drivers, as do the dlr. It might cost a lot to implement (i've no idea on this kinda thing) but it seems that driverless trains should be pretty straightforwards compared to other technology. I was always told as a kid that a train can take a mile to stop. if that's true, then there really is no reason to have a driver (unless they've got *really good* eyesight)

There is no choice but to automate.

Got any figures of the number of drivers who are actually on that figure? No, thought not...

Got any of your own to suggest otherwise?

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

Ah so only the left is telling the truth. Thats very open-minded of you.

Dont get me wrong - I think a Tube drivers job cant be all that pleasant to put it mildly..but I do like to see a reasoned discussion of things rather than a rant..but hey this is the interweb & this is STW...

Come on elf if you want to change folks minds dont rant or stereotype. Be reasoned & smart otherwise your opinion looks like the work of ranting leftie..

it becomes even more fraught when you have metal tubes full of humans traveling at 80mph, not changing a Proxy or a Pressure relief valve properly during maintenance could well make a "Lowly" worker responsible for 200 odd dead people not everyone wants to get on par with a war criminal just for trying to do their job.

Works fine with metal tubes with 500 people on board flying at 500mph.

have you seen The terminator

Really? That's what you are worried about?

Really?

😯

thinking about it, would the best place to automate trains perhaps be on remote lines, with few passengers? that way, instead of having, say, 4 of 2 coach trains a day, you could run 8 1 coach trains, without any driver based costs?

[img] [/img]

Did you read the article?

No!! I was just stoking the coal fire! Now if the trains ran on coal I think £52k would be fair!

Got any of your own to suggest otherwise?

yes:

[url= http://www.****/news/article-138486/Tube-drivers-vote-strike.html ]Mr Mason said the three per cent would take the average Tube driver's salary to more than £31,000 a year.
[/url]

[url= http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Tube_Driver_3207 ]The average salary for a Tube Driver in the UK is: £35,856[/url]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/09/tube-strike-london-underground-faq ]a tube driver's starting salary is just over £40,000, according to TfL[/url]

[url= http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/103142/london_underground/ ]Current Pay:£42,424.00[/url]

From a range of sources, left and right wing, and quite confuddling.

I don't see any mention of figures of £52k for ALL tube drivers though, do you?

IE, media sensationalism to make headlines once more.

Hence, get some perspective, think things through a bit first, don't make yer mind up at the first opportunity.

Ah so only the left is telling the truth. Thats very open-minded of you.

Please find where I've categorically stated this.

I'm going out now to meet Bully. Have fun while I'm gone! 😀

I don't see any mention of figures of £52k for ALL tube drivers though, do you?

Rant rant rant rant rant. Here we go again, if you don't agree with me you are stupid or a Daily Mail stooge. Shut up you idiot.

Anyway your house calculator thingy, there were a lot of cheaper houses than £419k and as I imagine the tube drivers get cheaper travel?? they can easily not live in kensington.

Does anyone know the actual wage for a tube driver doing an 8 hour day?

DLR accident

"On 10 March 1987, before the railway opened, a test train crashed through station buffer stops at the original high-level terminus Island Gardens station and was left hanging from the end of the elevated track. The accident was caused by unauthorised tests being run before accident-preventing modifications had been installed. [b]The train was being driven manually at the time[/b]"

Oops!

Please find where I've categorically stated this.

This just about covers it..

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

Hence, get some perspective, think things through a bit first, don't make yer mind up at the first opportunity.

Not made up in the slightest. I just cant stand biased rants. Your post was in danger of becoming one..

Now that your posting some facts they become worth reading..just.. 😉

 

Works fine with metal tubes with 500 people on board flying at 500mph.

When that PRV goes on a modern passenger plane under Autopilot though the Pilot is informed and knows what to do (You'd hope), when there are 3 or 4 Concurrent failures to go with it Flight crews are well enough trained to deal with these things with or without the supposedly infalable computer, aviation control systems are there to Present information and accomodate the crews decisions not overide them or cut them out of the loop.

There's every possibility that the fault scenarios considered in the design of this Hypothetical Train of the Future are not the only one that will occur in service, that is when you need a trained Human!
Both means of controling a vehicle are imperfect, humans have the imagination and experience to make better decisions than a bit of software which only has it's latest patch to "Learn" from, Computers don't panic but they also only operate within their programming...

I can't actually see service being improved but even if it were I also can't see that as a sufficient justification for retiring the meat sack behind the control desk - Safety has to be the overiding consideration.
You don't hear people after rail crashes saying
[I]"It was a horrific accident, 100s of people are dead. But on the Plus side the train did arrive 2 minutes ahead of schedule"[/I]
do you?

Anyway before they sort out the people to computer ratio, surely they should make it possible for a person in a wheelchair to be able to use the tube!

I don't have the time or energy to read all of that but I can say that the metro in Copenhagen is driverless and seems to work fine 🙂

The £52k isnt a statement of current salaries, its a projected salary after the 5% increases are applied in the next five years.

There are many modern driverless train systems that operate perfectly well in many parts of the world, but in the UK I dont have the confidence that we could implement one effectively and safely.

With the unions wanting their members looked after and the management wanting to maximise profit, I dont see safety being the primary concern in both parties, despite their rhetoric.
As they dont seem to be working together how can they implement a safe system for anything.

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot

And the abuse starts.

That's not abuse, that's just a vaguely humorous opinion.

Shut up you idiot.

Now that was the point at which the abuse started.

Oh the ironing.

There's every possibility that the fault scenarios considered in the design of this Hypothetical Train of the Future are not the only one that will occur in service, that is when you need a trained Human!
Both means of controling a vehicle are imperfect, humans have the imagination and experience to make better decisions than a bit of software which only has it's latest patch to "Learn" from, Computers don't panic but they also only operate within their programming...

You mean like lifts?

Sancho - Member
The £52k isnt a statement of current salaries, its a projected salary after the 5% increases are applied in the next five years.

There are many modern driverless train systems that operate perfectly well in many parts of the world, but in the UK I dont have the confidence that we could implement one effectively and safely.

With the unions wanting their members looked after and the management wanting to maximise profit, I dont see safety being the primary concern in both parties, despite their rhetoric.
As they dont seem to be working together how can they implement a safe system for anything.

I'd have to agree with that, I was recently working with a contractor Who had some wonderful stories some of which concerned design work he'd been involved in for control panel equipment for London Underground, He reckoned absolutely everything in the trains control area had to be fitted with anti tamper fixings because the drivers simpley couldn't be trusted not to sabotage their own train if they wanted a day off...

How true that anecdote is I don't know but it doesn't appear to be a healthy working relationship between management and workers...

aviation control systems are there to Present information and accomodate the crews decisions not overide them or cut them out of the loop

Not 100% true, modern aviation control systems are taking decisions away from the Pilot to stop him making a decision or manouvere which would put the plane in jeopardy.

I think the Channel Tunnel is the best we should hope for, its centrally controlled but has drivers to manage any issues that may arise.

scu98rkr - what you're struggling there with is called Net Present Value - just need to know your Internal Rate of Return. Trouble is as you don't understand that it's probably best not to set yourself up as an amateur economist. 😉

So youre on your tube train, being driven by a computer, with no intelligence, or sight, and it catches fire, crashes, comes off the track, etc etc, who is going to tell the passengers what to do and protect the other lines for other trains.

Trains do crash and are sometimes allowed to crash due to negligence or malicious persons, how can a computer be made to deal with that.

This won't be happening for quite some time due to extensive remodelling of the network being required on both the track and signalling side of things.

Don't expect to see much happening before mid 2013 and thats just the remodelling works

I'm still trying to work out how there would leaves on the track of an underground railway?...

The leaves stick to the bogie wheels, and as most trains are disc braked, theres no brake block to clear them off, so the train skids or slides when stopping or starting off, this can cause the train to pass a signal at danger eg on RED.It also stops the train being detected by the track circuiting devices.

Yeah, bit how did the leaves get to the underground trains? Which live underground?

Crazy!

Zedsdead - Not all the underground system is underground! Large parts of the Picadilly, District and Central lines are above ground.

I know. I just thought it was funny.

But still...

Its OK with Dockland Trains everything was designed for this purpose
Where as the Underground is fall of patched up net works, and up dated systems
mixed with the old.
Thats why so many things go wrong including the signalling !

But something has to be done as there pay is getting way-out of control.

The average London salary is only slightly less than the average tube drivers salary (or more, depending on what figures you use)

The average salary is almost certainly a misleading figure though. Plenty of super-rich to skew the mean. What's the modal salary bracket?

Zedsdead - Member

I'm still trying to work out how there would leaves on the track of an underground railway?...

Bob Crowe puts them there

Elf in 'being spot on' shocker 😉

Best

Tag

Ever.

Bob Crowe puts them there

I lolled!

Thats why so many things go wrong including the signalling

Now you see, its better for people to keep patching things up and charging/keeping staff in jobs than it is to fix it entirely.

Mild graphic content.

I wonder how an automated system would have dealt with the train I was driving one night earlier this year, which was crush loaded with a few hundred boisterous drunk M*n Un***d fans, people slightly inebriated going to Manchester for a night out and families who'd been to the seaside for the day going home.

About two thirds into the journey a bloke jumped in front of us committing suicide. There was about two seconds between him jumping out from behind a bridge and the impact noise, during which time I applied the emergency brakes and hit the emergency button on the cab radio. A train was coming towards us from a station about a mile away where it had just departed. I had to stop that train using emergency handsignals (no time to put detonators on the line).

In between stopping that train and arranging the emergency services giving directions to the nearest access point, the location of the incident, what they could expect to find, the location of my train etc, there were drunk idiots banging on the cab door moaning and being general d*cos. I had to tell them what had happened, that we wouldn't be moving for a while and try to reason with them not to leave the train whilst I went back to see if I could offer any first aid. Unfortunately the bloke was scattered over the entire 600 yards or so it had taken us to stop.

By the time the paramedic arrived the football lot had forced the train doors open and about two dozen were roaming on the track. Good job it wasn't an electrified area perhaps. If it had been, I'd have been the one who would have had to arrange for the traction current to be switched off in that area. The football lot had no idea where they were (only me and the guard would have known), where they were going or what risks there might be, nor that technically they were trespassing in what was at that point still technically a major crime scene.

Shortly after, about 50 coppers turned up. They helped with evacuating the passengers under my direction until railway incident officials and other on-call staff turned up. There were quite a lot of formalities to do as obviously I was the only person to have seen this bloke's last moments. A few months later I had to meet the guy's family at the inquest where I had to explain their son/brother/dad's last actions.

This is the sort of thing we are trained for and expected to deal with, don't even get me started on the shifts, the abuse we get, the bricks chucked at us at 100mph+. My basic pay isn't even 40k, the only reason tube drivers will potentially be earning more than some main line drivers in a few years time is because of the ridiculous prices in That London, that and the Tories don't want the boat rocking during the limpics.

Maybe some perspective.