Lets have a dialogue by all means but dont take the p1ss. That just doesnt help.
no one is really taking the p1ss though are they. merely pointing out that dissenting views aren't allowed to be heard for fear of aggression.
which is a point that really needs to be made.
see this is the other thing that is wrong about remembrance sunday. the assumption that every british casualty in war has died defending our right to liberty. they haven't. in fact a good many british soldiers have died in wars in an attempt to limit the liberty of others.
Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?
No country has a perfect record if you go back far enough.
The people who were conscripted/volunteered to fight against fascism were involved in a different conflict than those career soldiers who go on jobs arranged by their masters(uk/us govts )
Quite. But they clearly identify with and respect serving soldiers. The difference between them is minimal.
remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling which has appropriated the day in such a way that some people now feel that there should be only one meaning attached to it and any kind of subaltern or dissenting view is seen as unpatriotic or cowardly or disrespectful.
I had always thought it was about remembering the ordinary men and women who died, not the politicians who sent them.And that is how it normally goes up here.
Can you give me direct examples of it being hijacked as you have asserted it is.
Remembering those who have died in previous conflicts (all those who died, on all sides, everywhere in the world) is massively important. If we collectively stop remembering those who died in conflict, we stop thinking about why we should work hard to prevent war and the further suffering and death.
There will always be those who take events, symbols etc for their own (sometimes distasteful) causes, but that is not enough reason to stop doing something. As long as enough people know why we come together to remember and understand why those deaths are a terrible thing, then the message will drown out the vocal minorities. It is not about glorifying the dead or their deaths or even being grateful, but remembering them with due regard.
+several for jamj
The thing is, it is a militaristic ceremony, yet the vast majority killed in these conflicts have and will be civilians.
But I DO believe that making negative comments about an Iranian man's anger on a remembrance day thread is dimwitted patriotism..
Would you like to show us those comments? Oh, there weren't any.
I mentioned that an Iranian man (he self-identified as such) had approached my father and accused him of being 'a murderer', it was anecdotal in that it was the only negative reaction he has ever experienced in five years of poppy selling. So, once again as you are obviously exceedingly hard of thinking, there were no 'negative' comments so what on earth are you on about?
The clue is in the title assigned to the day, it's for remembering those who lost their lives in various wars the UK's been involved in.
I really don't see where political bias fits into this?....every conflict has its objectors, some wars are offensive instead of defensive and some soldiers volunteer as opposed to conscription....it's simply a day to pay respects to those who die in those crappy situations....some people over analyse things far too much.
Only a moron thinks it is a celebration of war and of course there is an element of patriotism, nationalism, jingoism etc etc as the day marks the loss of British and Commonwealth servicemen....it's not a difficult concept is it?
Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.
Well put deviant.
Unbelievable. Some people on here should be ashamed of themselves. Let those who want to remember do so, if you don't agree with it or want to remember in a different way that's OK too. However don't mock those that have fought for this country or their families and their loss.
Can you give me direct examples of it being hijacked as you have asserted it is.
sure, from this thread
aggression
I'd happily put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude.
I reckon you can expect a punch in the face
nationalisism
Like or not they are there "serving their Country"
Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers
jingoism
those at the bottom who died in two world wars to allow us the freedom
no one died in wwi to guarantee [i]our[/i] freedom. it saddens me that nearly 100 years later the same jingoism that encouraged all those to enlist still persists.
and while we're at it, who or what is this mysterious [i]us, we, our[/i] taht we're all supposed to identify with
remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling
Alternatively, it could be argued that this is a knee jerk reaction to remembrance day being hijacked by a jingoistic aggressive political wave of feeling [b]against[/b] certain wars!
Its also worth remembering that the poppy, remembrance day and the two minute silence, initially an occasion when 'the thoughts of everyone may be concentrated on reverent remembrance of the glorious dead' has been kicked about as a political football and political statement since at least 1933.
I do question if any politician should be at the cenotaph because they will always have baggage, no more so than Blair. Yes i know they are there as PM, etc. but nothing in life is that simple.
But it is not as though anything in the UK compares to the Soviet era May 9th parades.
Isn't this the problem, that somehow some lives are more worthy than others ?
Servicemen (and women?)- are indeed 'honoured'- but i recall that merchant seamen had to campaign for many years to get recognition of their part in the conflicts.
despite suffering proportionately greater loss...
Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?
wrecker, if you read my very first post then you'll see that i do in fact remeber those that fought in wwii.
i see absolutely no reason to feel [i]grateful[/i] for those who fought and died in wwi. it was not a war about securing freedom. i do feel sorrow about the enormous tragedy of it but that's a completely different emotion to gratitude.
Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials
on reflection, do you think that [i]hijack the day[/i] might be over egging the pudding a bit ? i don't think a single ceremony has been affected by those who happen to have a different world view.
Alternatively, it could be argued that this is a knee jerk reaction to remembrance day being hijacked by a jingoistic aggressive political wave of feeling against certain wars!
care to point out the knee jerk reactionism in any of my posts ? i'd say that i'd substantiated every point that i've made.
Hmmm - Rudebwoy, the merchant navy memorial has been at the top of tower hill since about 1928, which seems like a significant effort at recognising their part in war - though I recall there were calls for many years over recognition of individual campaigns through the award of medals.
Is that the best you can do? The replies to you trolling an internet chat room proves every point you have. Case in point;somebody mentions serving "their country" is your example of nationalistic hijacking of remembrance day?
Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.
That's you.
Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.
Today more than any other is a day where due reverence is shown to those that have been involved in military actions..
We are encouraged to remember
It's bound to raise discussion, or is the tradition now that we should remember (but keep our thoughts to ourselves)..?
Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?
No country has a perfect record if you go back far enough.
See it depends
WW1 expansionist bollocks where folk [generally poor] on all sides were slaughtered for no actual reason beyond greed for colonies and to see who was the hardest
I have seen the graveyards there dont tell me that was not a monumumental and colossal waste of human life b- if so many had not been so willing to sacrifice it could never have occurred so it is a double edged sword as on on side they will die to defend "freedom" and on the other they will inavde countries and kill for no good reason because they were ordered to and they did so-
WW2 was one for freedom v a nazi
I cannot support a person in uniform just because they wear a uniform
Like the police do is support them - what are they doing killing protestors, beating up miners, covering up Hillsborough or they 99.9% of good they actually do
The nationalism is that we remember our fallen and not all the fallen - we are not weeping for the innocent Afghanis killed in our " war" we are weeping only for our brave forces killed
there does seem a level of intolerance towards any view that is not 'fitting'
Case in point;somebody mentions serving "their country" is your example of nationalistic
yup, they're not remembering [i]the[/i] dead. they're remembering '[i]our[/i]' dead.
i haven't trolled at all. you just don't like what i'm saying
since we've got to the moment where those arguing against the point are making the point. i'm out.
remember, how you see fit.
yup, they're not remembering the dead. they're remembering 'our' dead.
Some do, some don't. There are rememberance events all over the world. D you think that they spare a thought for blitz victims during Giorno dell'Unità Nazionale Giornata delle Forze Armate?
Each country is entitled to remember their dead any way they should choose and rightly so. If rememberance day causes you to remember the victims of war, military and civilian, British and foreign then I think that's a good thing.
If rememberance day serves only to remind some of how horrible war is, and how we should avoid it in future then it's a good thing. If, for others it serves as an opportunity to remember family and friends lost, then that's good too. Whatever anyone takes from it, I just hope it serves as a positive.
RE; the justification of war thing; is it ever justified? Should we not all know better by now? It seems not.
nationalisism
Compete & utter cr@p.
Why?
Because your taking my comments out of context.
Go back & read my posts again.
Ive nothing against you having a different POV.
Id just be much happier if was presented it in a respectful fashion.
One-liners about trained killers being sensitive isnt respectful.
may I suggest stop being oh so brave behind your keyboard & toddle off down your local cenotaph & air your views there.
Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.
I dare you to say that to a vet whose been in combat, go on...theres plenty around today - it shouldnt be too hard to find one..
I'd [i][b]happily[/b][/i] put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude..
(intentional emphasis on "happily" there for anyone's benefit.)
Title of this thread: "the thread for negative views about remembrance"
About the most negative comments here are from you. In what context exactly, should one take these other than reading like threats by proxy? (I'm not upset btw, I wouldn't come on stw for a discussion if I got all uppity with a bit of dissin')
Oh and I just found another:
If you tried that on with some of my friends (whove recently lost a colleqgue) you had better stand by. Thats all Im saying.
Classy...
I have posted inthe other thread too. I am visitng a friend here and I was honoured that we have the chance to remember our heroes who died for our country in WWII my great-grandfather died on a destroyer in the pacific. I choose this day to remember him and i am gald that you would all join me in remembering and being grateful for what he did for his country.
Only a moron thinks it is a celebration of war and of course there is an element of patriotism, nationalism, jingoism etc etc as the day marks the loss of British and Commonwealth servicemen...
Why are the lives of those people considered more important than the lives of the millions of other people who die in conflicts worldwide? Only remembering our military war dead and no-one else is inherently jingoistic IMO and the occasion gets used to stir up support for 'our brave boys' in current and future conflicts.
I'd fully support Remembrance Day if it was about remembering those who have lost their lives in conflict worldwide, regardless of nationality or their job.
As long as war is a profitable business, wars will continue to happen. Should we remember fellow humans beings who have been unfortunate enough to be caught up in wars and lost their chance at life?
That is up to each of us to decide as individuals and should be respected.
Conflict is what happens when you fail to grasp that each of us has a right to our opinions and to choose our own actions, as long as our actions do no harm to others or do not have a detrimental effect on their quality of life. Then we should all respect that.
Conflict is always born of oppression or resistance to the will of others. Rather than demonstrating an inability to be reasonable and excepting the view points of others differ from our own, modern humans are condition to go into conflict mode.
Take a step back mentally and look at the situation, people have the right to remember, people have the right to say that it is being used as a way of distracting us from all the shit that's going on! If you can accept that without becoming emotional, then the issues that have formed on these threads can be resolved, if not then you will simply be trapped in a vicious cycle of escalating conflict and animosity.
All the stuff about threatening/castigating those who fail to have the 'correct' view (as approved by the establishment and tabloid media) is pretty sickening too tbh, and massively ironic.
And with the addition of post 72, I'm (most probably) oot.
I find its a time to remember all those who have died in conflicts on all sides as if others dont see it this way thats for them to decide.
Im not any more touchy at this time of year either.
However don't mock those that have fought for this country or their families and their loss.
I'm not sure anyone on this thread has Pingu?
Personally, I grew up in a heavily influenced military town, I have had, and continue to have, many friends who are in the forces and I now live in another military town. I'm a huge supporter of our troops and the job they do in often horrific circumstances.
I'm also a huge supporter of drawing everyone's attention to these troops, the many before them and all those families of troops and victims of conflict who have been affected, however, there is something, and I'm not able to actually place my finger on what it is, about Rememberance Day that makes me slightly uncomfortable.
That isn't to say I don't recognise it and I certainly wouldn't ever dis-courage anyone else to support it but it does mean I'm open to listening to others opinions regarding it, something I personally feel this thread has done quite respectfully.
Nice to be able to express your views pro or against. Maybe just be grateful you can .easy to mock those who gave their lives so you can sit there and belittle them
I think WW1 and 2 were pretty clear cut and that we were protecting the Uk from invasion - probably. Iraq and Afghanistan - IMO were/are illegal wars where we were/are poking our noses in without justification (other than brown-nosing America).
I'm sorry for EVERYONE who has died in wars (brown/white/yellow/christian/muslim/american indian/yeah you get the idea). War is horrible. You know what? It's 2012 and we think we're civilised. Well, can we please act in a 'civilised' manner and stop ****ing killing each other?
Didn't see any belittling andyruss, I read some discussion about what Remembrance Day seems to have become* and some talk about how the scope of 11/11 could do with widening.
And a whole load of negativity and some not at all veiled quasi-threats from the "pro" remembrance group
*ie some think its been hijacked for political jingoistic reasons
Donk referring to servicemen/women as trained killers on today of all days is not belittling them then
I agree, a good thread to have, thanks Yunki, and on the whole a reasoned one, apart from the irony of the threats from the 'chest beaters'-- and DONK is right to identify the need for widening and making the whole thing inclusive rather than exclusive .
Andyruss at first I too thought that comment was a bit inappropriate but as several subsequent posters proved it to be accurate, I guess it's pertinent.
Nice to see the Irish Taoiseach in Enniskillen today paying his respects, very poignant.
Rudebwoy it was others who identified the widening scope stuff, I was just summarising the thread as I read it. I as ever am not sure 100% exactly how I feel on the subject, observed the silence when it was pointed out what time it was (over the PA at swimming pool) but forgot to get a poppy again.
Was enjoying the discussion tho.
Just a thought:
I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?
ok --good summary !
like most on here, am not comfortable with the present scenario,which increasingly seems to be about those who serve in the forces, and not the wider perspective of human empathy
I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?
As I said, to me the fact that Remembrance Day is officially just about commemorating the military dead, on our side only, is inherently valuing the lives of some people more than others. It's difficult to see that as anything other than nationalistic, IMO.
The atmosphere of enforced patriotism is pretty worrying. Seems like these attitudes are more likely to encourage future conflict than guard against it.
Rudeboy.... I'm entirely comfortable with the present scenario and you are in the minority I reckon IMO
seem to be getting in a discussion with donk. Anyway why l observe the silence. I served on the front line in the first gulf war .l did not wish to be there but it was my job. 3 members of my unit lost their lives along with thousands of others. I went through every emotion you could think of but the over ridding one's were fear ,pity and joy you will never understand when it was over. I never talk about it to my family and my son never ask's me questions about it. When we were dealing with enemy pow's we showed compassion and respect giving them our own rations of food and water. Actions of a trained killer ? My opinion of war is that it is wrong at every level and l never again wish to see,smell relive that part of my life. However the people l served with will always be dear to my heart. When you have been through that then you can question why l chose to honour them in my own little way . No songs no flag waving just one minute out of my year mindless killing machine or no. Today it was a minutes reflection prior to our group ride
Just a thought:I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?
This. Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil should not let that detract from the fact that remembrance day is about remembering those who, past and present, sacrifice their safety to protect us.
There is a feeling in the internet world we live in of cuddly safety, we're detached from lots of real issues these days and it's easy for those of you who do, to sit at home in your chair, in the warm to say that all wars are bad. But there are millions upon millions of people out there who would scream to you that it is often a necessary cost to do right. The pen is mightier than the sword until the swordsman pulls his sword on the writer. Those of you who attack the army and everything they stand for, are hypocrites of the highest order because you will hate them until YOU need them.
Patriotism is something we should value, and we should respect our troops in any way possible.
