Tignes avalanche.
Appears to be confirmed with 4 casualties, 2 recovered alive and 3 missing
Off piste slope
😐
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38954628
If photo is of avalanche location it looks a relatively shallow slope
Sad news indeed from Tignes. Worrying that it seemed to be a guided group, not just a group of punters, although also worrying that they're not sure how many were in the group to start with, if they went out with a guide.
Also
means nothing. Avalanche risks vary hugely for each slope, depending on the angle, the compass facing of the slope, the snowpack's history, the recent winds, the temperatures and precipitation through the season... it's almost deliberately deceptive to describe the avalanche rish for a whole resort with just one very vague number. And can encourage people to underestimate the risks involved in going off-piste.The avalanche warning level at Tignes on Monday was three out of five
</rant>, sorry.
...and when was the last time that a christmas-voting-resort-turkey put a "5" up on the resort risk board?
It's the big off piste slope above the free beginners lift in Tignes. I've skied the part below the avalanche barriers but not the bit further left which went.
Temperatures are rising and some of the big accumulations high up are starting to avalanche as the snow softens. One of the problems with climatic change is that there are more heavy Spring type avalanches in the middle of the ski season when things used to be quite stable (report on French TV last week)
[url= http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/auvergne-rhone-alpes/savoie/au-moins-deux-morts-avalanche-tignes-savoie-1195879.html ]Before and after web cam pics[/url]
The avalanche warning level at Tignes on Monday was three out of five
Three = [b][i]significant[/i][/b] risk. not "oh *** it if we don't go now we'll not get first tracks."
🙁
Edit - isn;t that where a UCPA group got caught in an avalanche recently? More, a UCPA group without beeps and other avvy gear?
it if we don't go now we'll not get first tracks.
It was already well tracked out. Everything easily skiable in my local resort was heavily tracked by last Thursday night. By Saturday the only untracked stuff to play in was steep, crusted and not much fun to ski - but I skied it all the same.
"recently", nearly four years ago, nbt.
It sounds terrible. Lets not get into speculation just yet.
Three = significant risk
semantics perhaps, but a 3 = Considerable. i.e. the snowpack is unstable on *many* slopes over 30 degrees and should therefore influence your go/no go decision making process.
Worrying that it seemed to be a guided group
Indeed - although HAT have posted that the group was with an instructor rather than a guide.
Very sad indeed. 🙁
No-one is speculating, the circumstances are available in the article I linked with more detail elsewhere. You don't need 30° for a slope to avalanche. 25° is generally reckoned to be the lower limit and even a little lower on smooth surfaces such as flattened grass.
Instructors go through training programmes that include snow pack risk assessment just like guides. They all go through ENSA these days.
Even if guided this
The avalanche appeared to have been set off by a group of skiers higher up, the ski station said in a statement.
is now one of my biggest fears when in the backcountry.
Instructors go through training programmes that include snow pack risk assessment just like guides. They all go through ENSA these days
Indeed - I wasn't disputing that - [as I also mentioned on another thread], in France, the 'Carte Pro' allows you to instruct 'off piste'. I was just pointing out that HAT was reporting that the group were being 'instructed' off pistes rather than 'guided' ... which is an important distinction I think.
I don't know what HAT is and Google doesn't help. If it's on the Web link it.
HAT = Henry's Avalanche Talk [url= http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/ ]HAT[/url]
Sorry Edukator ... HAT = "Henry's Avalanche Talk"
[url= http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/fatal-avalanche-tignes-13-february-2017/ ]Clicky[/url]
The comments below the article on [url= http://www.skipass.com/news/145584-avalanche-a-tignes-neuf-personnes.html ]Skipass [/url] are as close as you'll get to the horses mouth. I still fail to see the difference between guided and instructed given that the avalanche was within an area where both professions are competent and it doesn't matter what the context was, they were just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. Blame if there is any to be attributed will come later as in the case referred to by nbt.
they were just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time
Completely agree.
My distinction regarding instructor/guide is more around perception and understanding rather than the specifics of this unfortunate incident. You may well be right and a UIAGM/IFMGA/IVBV guide etc could well have been caught in similar tragic circumstances.
However, increasingly often I hear people use the term 'guided off-piste' when in fact they mean 'instructed'. There is a difference in my opinion - similar to the following distinctions
engineer/technician
consultant/registrar
etc
For sure there are overlaps but the two terms are not interchangeable.
Is it relevant in this sad incident? Maybe not, but I believe it's important to try and stick to the established facts.
Bonjour from Les Menuires. Obligatory drinky pic, stopped for a cheeky Vin Chaud for elevenses. 😀
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Spring skiing here, 11° and sunny at base, snow is in very good nick though.
[url= https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/carte?c=6.4874267578125,45.249754646487304&z=9&l0=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.MAPS.SCAN-EXPRESS.NIVEAUXGRIS::GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS(1)&l1=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.SLOPES.MOUNTAIN::GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS(0.6)&permalink=yes ]A useful map[/url]. A little caution is needed in the interpretation. Once started avalanches can travel a long way. You need to know not only which slopes are likely to avalanche but also the route they take and how far they are likely to go.
Surely the difference between guide and instructor is mainly about the punter and what you do.
Off piste, properly off piste, I'd need an instructor talking me through things, pointing things out, demonstrating things. A guide would surely be for people already competent off piste.
The differences would be in speed of travel, accuracy of execution etc.
I know for example in soft snow all too often I put too much pressure through the board. If I was with an instructor I'd expect to be somewhere where that leaves me sat on my behind (probably sinking) and being laughed at. If I was being guided and the guide assumed I knew what I was doing, there might be more consequences.
Surely the difference between guide and instructor is mainly about the punter and what you do.
To a certain extent, yes ...
However, all to often I hear it said "you should have a Guide to go off-piste" , which is incorrect and some people will see the cost of hiring a Guide for a day and they think 'sod that' and either miss out or take a risk, when in both cases an appropriately qualified and experienced Instructor may well be sufficient
And on the flip side some people think that an Instructor with a Carte Pro (or similar) is a cheap way to be 'guided' off piste ...
igm - I agree with you that an Instructor is probably the first port of call when taking your very first steps away from groomed runs, however a good Guide will also be able to give you hints, tips and guidance regarding technique (as well as other aspects of backcountry travel) as long as you've already got the fundamentals covered.
For example, you don't need to be anything more than a solid intermediate piste skier (i.e. European Red runs) to ski the likes of the Vallee Blanche, but you should probably do it with a Guide unless you're confident at traveling over glaciated terrain/crevasse rescue.
Accidents happen with Guides and Instructors too. It's about risk reduction not elimination.
I too have skied that off piste and it's pretty steep at the top. You can traverse / hike around the top a bit or cut in much lower down where it's less steep and certainly somewhere an instructor might take a group for a little off piste instruction.
Edukator it used to be possible to get the proper detailed IGN maps on geoportal but they seemed to have changed it ?
From the Guardian 🙁
The victims of the avalanche at Tignes were reported to be a 48-year-old French man, his 15-year-old son and the teenager’s 19-year-old half-brother, according to the emergency services. The fourth, an Ecole du Ski Français snowboard instructor was named as Laurent Ruiz, 59, an experienced mountain professional.
As we're talking about France I suggest the French legal framework. Assuming you actually feel the need to be "guided" as in shown the way down rather finding you own route down:
If you want to go ski-mountaineering (ski alpinisme) in high mountains outside a ski resort you need a mountain guide.
If you want to ski down from a lift off piste in a ski resort then you need a moniteur hors piste.
If yo u want to ski down from a lift that's considered haute montagne (Vallée Blanche) then you need a guide or a moniteur-guide.
The divisions between the different activities are flexible to some extent but jurisprudences are there to tell people when they are stepping out of their domaine de competence. If you want to ski down that face in Tignes then the obvious person to hire is a fully qualified moniteur de ski. It's very much a part of the ESF's regular business. If you want instruction during the descent then ask the moniteur for for it, if not you'll get a few tips along the way. It's a service, you make what you will of it.
The reasons for hiring a moniteur hors piste depend on the client but people I know who use them simply want to be shown around the best hors piste runs in an unfamiliar resort. Thus benefiting from the moniteur's local knowledge of runs, snow conditions, objective risks and difficulty. It's not a 100% guarantee of safety (as today's unfortunate accident shows) but it does mean you're less likely to:
-ski down the wrong couloir
-misread the snow conditions and avalanche risk
-attempt something beyond your ability (junior is really rigorous about assessing a client before doing anything difficult even on piste)
-get lost
-ski over a cliff
-etc.
Edit. for the IGN maps you have to go into the normal Geoportal site rather than the risks one, Jamba.
see below
Nasty place for a slide, know it well and that bund at the bottom would have made a firkin big hole full of concrete snow. Ugly.
I had a slide myself quite near there in 1998 on my lunch hour 😯 Naughty and I got spooked by it as I knew better (was doing Mtn Guide training at that point!)
Thoughts with all concerned, there but for the grace of god etc etc
The guide I used to use in Chamonix was a ski instructor during his military service so covered both bases well. Also understood the importance of a good lunch.
Bonjour from Les Menuires
#strangest
I used to link pics from Google + but it doesn't seem to work any more. Have they stopped direct linking or something?
Last Friday on the local nordic circuit.
Your hair has grown a bit 😉
id say madame could do with a hat and gloves for her birthday this year Edukator!
> Bonjour from Les Menuires#strangest
Apologies, that wasn't really fitting for the tone of the thread at that point. 😳 On my mobile and hadn't caught up with the other posts.
Au contraire, I'd say it brought a welcome light relief
Agreed
Yep, I think we'd all prefer to see a dishy dreamboat 😉
(The "strangest" was a reference to Dai Darcy of this parish, who would on occasion display the "strangest boner" when aroused!)
Who's been editing 😉
I wonder if nbt will post a photo of his dreamboat 🙂
Ah gotcha Flashy. I'll post some more Blue Steel later then if it helps nurse that semi a bit longer 😉
Another sunny blue sky day here in 3 Valleys. Snow holding up very well.
Good to hear Gee. Where you been?
that wasn't really fitting for the tone of the thread at that point.
au contraire ... it was indeed light relief - the STWS&ST equivalent of a seal 'photobomb' 😆 😆
Good to hear Gee. Where you been?
All round Les Menuires and Val Thorens for the first 2 days. This morning we did the run off Mont Vallon peak (absolutely stunning view). Just had a cracking Bouef Tartare in Le Plan des Mains and feeling very full. Quick espresso then we might hit the park.
Hotel Mont Vallon has a great terrace / restuarant (although tbh not been there/Meribel for many years now) - great place on a sunny day. The runnoff the top is indeed excellent.
Brucie Bonus at the top on Mont Vallon, especially for Flashy:
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GrahamS you're beautifully colour coordinated.
Piste sartorial elegance 🙂
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm spent!
Piste sartorial elegance
I figure if I can't do it I should at least look good trying. 😉
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm spent!
You're welcome! Happy Valentines. x
A shortish report following our 4 day trip to Morzine.
We totally lucked out with the weather and had 3 blue sky days of faultless skiing. Plenty of snow though it was quite warm so the slopes by the end of this week will be worn as no new snow is forecast. Managed the Swiss Wall no better or worse than the majority.
Since we only wanted 3 nights B&B, our options for staying was limited. I booked l'Aubergade without knowing anything/reading any review about the hotel or its location in Morzine.
When we pulled up I couldn't believe our luck, the hotel is Ski in ski out very near the Pleney lift. The bar/lounge has been cleverly designed and reminded us of some bars in Berlin. Very cool. Rooms were basic but clean with a power shower.
Had I done a ounce of research I would've known that they can also sort out child care and had an in-house nursery. Next year we'll take the kids as we will definitely return.
Finally, I think the prices in Morzine have actually fallen since we were last here. We could eat/drink out well for around £50. 2 large glasses of Vin Chaud on the slopes was about £7, cheaper than Cardiff at Christmas! A glass of house wine in the bars was about £3, again cheap. Since we had some cash leftover we bought ourselves 2 new ski jackets and trousers, soft shell French company for around £300.
All in we had an excellent time and only had 30min delay in GVA on the way home!
Wall to wall sunshine here in Schladming too. A couple of school boy errors. Left my sunglasses at home, skimped on the factor 50 and my face is now a tad red.
Excellent conditions for us piste bashers though.
Nice one, Dan - sounds awesome. Morzine can be lots of fun.
Whistler about to get hit by a large pineapple express. Rising temperature, sun and a public holiday meant packed slopes and a high avy risk, with some inbounds bowls being closed.
FL keeps fluctuating up and down, so I have no idea if I'll wake up to 25cm of fresh (but heavy) snow or if half the mountain will be underwater and goretex socks and facemask will be required :s]
Graham - *sploosh*
Speaking of the House Wine, I can't help thinking that the early mornings with kids would be a little easier without the generous "Help Yourself" policy in the evenings.
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Rude not to though. 😀
I can feel the hangover from here
3 sleeps
send it first look later
needs sound
Interesting article from HAT regarding last weeks tragic event in Tignes:
[url= http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/lessons-from-tignes-avalanche-accident/ ]http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/lessons-from-tignes-avalanche-accident/[/url]
Interesting to note that the earlier reports that the slide was triggered by another group on the slope above the victims is no longer considered.
A good article I think, that raises some important but also reassuring points about 'off piste' terrain.
interesting reading thanks
Excellent and informative. The boarder vs skier risks I had't thought of before. Certainly been taught to traverse one by one, keeping a reasonable speed and an eye upwards. I didn't know the "release at skier causes further release above" situation but it makes sense if slab is big and slope is steeper.
Good article. I can recommend Henry's Avalanche Talks if you get the chance to go.
I'm beginning to think Henry is lazy and would do better to do a little research before posting. Lots of speculation and littel real content.
We do not have the exact slope angles in this case. But from the photos it looks like 35 to 40 degrees.
Well look at the Geoportal site or an IGN map and work it out then. The avalanche debris was 12m deep according to the vid he links but perhaps didn't watch
However the topography means must have been lower down the slope than where the crown actually broke.
There's access to the slope from just below the cliff all the way down - that is to say everywhere snow accumulates. It's all skiable, they could have been anywhere but the witnesses will no doubt tell the investigators if they really were seen. the usual route in is right at the top but we don't know where they were when it triggered. Edit why he assumes they were walking in I have no idea - there' no need.
The snowboarders were on crossing the slope on a similar or less steep pitch some distance further down
Again we don't know yet - the slope gets steeper at two points rather than just being concave.
Some of his advice is good but clearly unrealistic in this case.
One by one between safe places - good advice. So the guide should have left the group behind the last avalanche barrier then boarded down to the bar and waved at the other three to come down from there - there is no safe place once you break out past the avalanche barriers on that face
I'm beginning to find Henry very irritating.
Me too.... will drop you a txt and maybe see you on the slopes or in a bar. Boys are excited here 🙂igm - Member
3 sleeps
On a lighter note again: two proud dad moments today:
1) spending the afternoon skiing/boarding with my six year daughter who can now ride chairlifts and happily plough down any blue we throw at her.
2) having to tell said six year old, and her three year old sister, that skiing all day then dancing till 11pm with the cast from Moulin Rouge doesn't mean they get to miss the last day of ski school 😀
To make up for the previous "having a wonderful time in Canada" posts just drove through a torrential rain storm 30mm+ in Fernie while on the way to Kimberly. I'm sure the upper mountain is fantastic but it will be cement lower down.
To make up for the previous "having a wonderful time in Canada" posts just drove through a torrential rain storm 30mm+ in Fernie while on the way to Kimberly. I'm sure the upper mountain is fantastic but it will be cement lower down.
Sounds about right. We got an awful lot of rain. Snowing (just) in the alpine but really wet heavy snow and high winds. So no alpine for the last couple of days. Freezing level is due to drop back down from 2000m to a more respectable 1100 but everything will be pretty rock solid after the amount of rain we got.
Freezing level is due to drop back down from 2000m to a more respectable 1100
still snowing, or dry since the rain?
I spent Tuesday night in the garage, degluing and regluing skins, filling gouges with ptex and edging and waxing 2 splitboards and a solid board. Felt absolutely awful the next day. splitting headache and out of it, like I was in the next room. Got lost in Manchester more than once on a 10 min walk from the station to our office.
It's all about ventilation, kids. Ventilation, Ventilation, Ventilation.
I spent Tuesday night in the garage, degluing and regluing skins
What removal method did you go for nedrapier?
I did the repeated sheets of brown paper to remove (took forever) and a glue sheet and hot iron to replace.
Would be interested in your experience ... once you've recovered from 'sniffin' glue' that is! 😯
I didn't know the "release at skier causes further release above" situation
Aye ... 'Remote Trigger' as it's known can occur when a person (or persons) cause a fracture that propagates in unstable snowpack.
Hot air gun and paint scraper, or proper glue removal tool definitely easier than brown paper and iron - iron just doesn't seem to get hot enough... decathlon do the proper heated scrapers - worth £18! https://www.decathlon.co.uk/heated-scraper-for-skins-id_4016175.html
decathlon do the proper heated scrapers - worth £18!
Spooky... I've just ordered one of those heated scrapers from Decathlon.
Don't need it yet, but nice to have just in case!
Cheers Dashed! 😉
Edit why he assumes they were walking in I have no idea - there' no need.
"Cyril Anceau of the Mountain Rescue Services has said that the group were on foot and possibly triggered the avalanche themselves by punching down to a weak layer."
The epitome of "styling it out"
He meant to do that. Surely!
steezy! reminds me a couple others. I'm thinking of Terje casing on the coping on a 10m Quarterpipe at The Arctic Challenge, tucking into a front flip and landing perfectly near the bottom of the transition.
And David Benedek tumbling off a wall ride/rail in some fillum or other and landing on his board, almost stationary. He stands there for a beautiful moment of frozen disbelief that he's upright before he and everyone else crack up laughing.
Can't find either Yootoob, so you'll just have to imagine/remember them!
Digby - I did most of it with an iron on medium, siliconised baking paper and a scraper - iron a bit, scrape a bit. Bit of a faff, but you get better/quicker as you go. Then I remembered about the heat gun in the drawer. you can get more done quicker with that, but I did get a bit concerned about damaging the skins.
Ideally you'd have one person applying the heat with whatever method, and the other scraping and wiping the scraper. That would be very efficient. Or get that heated scraper jobby!
I used the brown paper as a final pass, and to clean the skin sock things. bit on top, bit underneath, and a piece cut to size on the inside of the sock.
Thanks nedrapier! I was thinking about a heatgun when I spotted the COLL TEX Heated Scraper for Skins @ Decathlon pop up in a google search at the same time dashed mentioned it.
I too was a little worried about the heat gun damaging the skins - I have memories of 'scorching' wood years ago when strpping layers of paint of wooden doors ...
Did you use glue from a pot/tube or the glue sheets?
Ooh, dunno if this has been done, Burton's Step On bindings positively reviewed: https://whitelines.com/snowboard-gear/news-previews/burton-step-on-bindings-first-review-2017-2018.html
Could improve my skiier friend relationship. Strongly considering... 😀
I used the sheets - colltex from facewest, they're a little narrow - 130mm I think, but you can split them down the middle and leave an unglued strip in the middle of the skin.
Narrow and out of stock at facewest - maybe Decathlon have them? BD more expensive but in stock at FW, and wider.
Easy enough to do, but the one you do second will probably be better!
Watch the vid on the facewest site. (they've got a fancy heated scraper - makes anything you've done previously look like a massive, faffy waste of time!) Give it plenty with the iron, let it cool, pull the paper off, look for lighter patches where it's not soaked into the cloth, heat with the heatgun and/or put a sheet of siliconised baking paper (£not much for 60m on amazon - also handy for baking) over the top and iron.
Keep going until it's all uniform and dark and shiny. Always let it cool for a minute or few before taking the paper off to check, or some of it will come off with the paper.
Liking the cheeky footplant attempt in the linked video, Dez!
cheers nedrapier.
yeah - I've used the BD sheets before. My Dakine wax iron wasn't anywhere near hot enough to make it 'dark & shiny' so I had to requisition the 'household' iron on a temporary basis ... 😉
Was quite surprised just how hot I had to get it ...
Yeah I've got to say I'm impressed with those step on bindings. I could well be tempted but will give them a year and see how they stand up to other people abusing them first. I can see the new skeleton key/ deep thinker in those videos too, one of which is my next board. Yum yum
I'm impressed with all this re gluing chat. I tried once and sweamrs decreed that buying new skins was a better option once clean up time and aroma was considered.
I'm impressed with all this re gluing chat. I tried once and sweamrs decreed that buying new skins was a better option once clean up time and aroma was considered.