The weather has gone mild again. 🙁
The weather has gone mild again.
Yep, was sat out in a T-shirt in Villeneuve yesterday having lunch, a far cry from -20 five days ago. It did at least re-freeze overnight, was pretty treacherous walking on verglassed pavements at 5am to get to the coach for the trip back to the airport.
It's been absolutely puking in Whistler the last couple of days and it's set to continue tonight and I think, though tomorrow. Visibility was crap today but plenty of scope for fresh lines, even later on during the day.
Two young American ski team prospects have been killed at the team Austrian training camp, together with others they had been off-piste as they returned from training on the Glacier. Sad times, be careful.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/05/two-us-ski-team-prospects-killed-in-austrian-avalanche ]link[/url]
Visibility was crap today
You better get used to it there!! 😆 ... Yellow lenses are a must there imo.
Grim for the up and coming members of that ski team. I just got back from a week in Paradiski... report and some pictures to follow! 🙂
Completely clear lenses or nothing at all most of the time around the solstice. A couple of mates skied into a piste-basher cable on Saturday evening at dusk. Nothing broken but a rotor cuff tear for one. The snow is lousy off piste so most ski tourers are doing things that allow a return via the pistes which requires care when there are four machines and their cables up there.
Well I just got back from a week in Champagny. The snow was actually a lot better than I thought it would be. I had an off piste guide for two separate 3 and 4 hour sessions, which was well worth it imo (I wouldn't have done any of this without a guide). There was pretty much no base, but high up on north facing slopes the conditions were pretty good. Hit a few rocks here and there but nothing too bad so no core shots, and the snow was a lot softer and deeper than I expected, considering the state of the pistes in most places.
I was given a transceiver and probe and shovel for the day for my off piste guide, I was embarrassed to say I hadn't actually used them before. I think they'll be next on my list.
On my second off piste day in the cloudy pictures, a skier my guide got chatting to at the bottom who went down a similar route to us had to pull his avalanche airbag in a slide he got caught up in. Both days were really good, I found the traverse quite sketchy at times, (got a photo of the slightly easier part).
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Champagny Le Haut down the other side there, after going in from the mid station of Roche de Mio, Champagny.
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Some freshies were to be found. Skiid all the way down into Champagny Le Haut on this one.
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Into the abyss.
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Finished up down there in the valley.
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Now to face the depressing thought that I might not be skiing for another year 🙁 .
You better get used to it there!! ... Yellow lenses are a must there imo.
Currently my goggles have cat 2 'rose' lenses. Work well for a wide range of conditions, but fall down when it's super snowy/foggy. You can always see far enough ahead but there's no definition in the snow. Think you may be right - some cat 1 yellow lenses might be a good shout.
Oh and regarding back packs, I have an Ortovox which I really like.
I'd have skied at least another metre right of that cornice.
Michael - I'm heading to La Plagne in March. Which guide did you use, and what was the cost of you don't mind me asking?
I'd have skied at least another metre right of that cornice.
It did feel slightly sketchy but I had faith in my guide. He pointed out that we were following a group of people being led by the writer of the back country ski guide book for the Savoie region.
I was staying in Champagny and booked them through the ESF there. The two guides I had were Damien and Vincent. Vincent is also an instructor with the ESF where as Damien is a pure mountain guide only. Both were very good, and I was told there is only one guide called Damien! It was 189 euros for 4 hours and about 153 for 3 hours. Takes a while to get anywhere so they don't do any less than 3 hours.
Use your own brain Michael, your clearly have one as you saw danger where one local "expert" didn't and your own guide was happy to follow like a sheep. Guides die regularly and two local ones have "lost" clients but survived themselves.
Objectively those tracks are too close, I say that because we ski ridges like that every year and see them after the cornice has broken. Sometimes just the cornice drops off, sometimes the cornice and all the snow on that side of the ridge avalanches off.
You and your guide didn't make new tracks at a safer distance given you yourself judged the trail too close to the edge perhaps because you were too lazy and/or in too much of a hurry to make a new trail further from the cornice.
Guides in a hurry because they have another client in a few hours really irritate me, they are a real pain/danger on the mountain. We got overtaken by a guide and his client when we were moving together down the icy, rock-strewn descent from the Goûter. The guide was fretting about missing the tramway and urging the client to go faster - on a section where there are regular injuries and deaths (a guide recently) due to falls and people knocking stones down onto others.
Seconded Edukator, you can see someone's taken a safer line further to skiiers rights.
Got to say, I agree with Edukator* there too. The tracks in that first photo look like they go surprisingly close to that cornice.
They break further back than you think and can pull snow with them:
[img] http://static.squarespace.com/static/53fbfe1ce4b04ce86372f366/t/5442d1f8e4b0ea3fd728f072/1413665274758/?format=750w [/img]
And you don't get a lot of warning when they go:
😯
* (Disclaimer: I am NOT experienced or knowledgeable about mountain safety - just stating my opinion)
Lucky escape for that bloke. Scary vid.
I was about to say that whoever set that line on the cornice was tired of living but you all beat me to it ! As per the picture above, they go quite a bit before the crest, i once snapped one off on Glas Maol (patrolling) and wet my pants a bit as i was quite far behind it.
@michael nice photos. @Edukator makes a fair point, on the second section of the ridge all the tracks seem quite close to the edge whereas on the first part there are two distinct lines. I've done a few traverses / ridge lines in my time where the guide has described them as no fall zones, I think I am now retired from those sort of runs.
Michael - I'm heading to La Plagne in March. Which guide did you use, and what was the cost of you don't mind me asking?
I can recommend [url= http://www.reflex-skischool.com/en/ ]Reflex[/url] in la Plagne, great bunch of local guys.
Poor Michael just wanted to show his holiday pics and is getting rinsed!
Better than buried alive though I guess
Yeah sorry Michael.
FWIW I enjoyed the pics.
A bit harsh but fair I hope. Please leave the pics up, they're good pics and an insight into what to be aware of for STWers about to head out into the hills. I showed them to Madame with no prompting before posting a comment, she immediately pointed out the cornice risk.
Second day back in work after getting back from PDS at the weekend, and it sucks. Think we got very lucky - flew out on the 27th amidst the chaos on the roads in France. Couple of hours delay but otherwise no problems, but did hear some horror stories. Hardest part of the journey was dragging the bags through the deep snow up the driveway to the house we were staying 😆 Plenty of fresh snow around through the start of the week, but offpiste needed care and the pistes got worn quickly.
Off to Austria in a fortnight, so now watching this weekend's forthcoming dump with interest 🙂
Oh, and interesting photos on previous page - no way you'd have got me that near that cornice, but can certainly see how the follow-the-guide thinking happens. Friend of a friend was caught in an avalanche a few years ago when with a guide. He had a bad feeling about it, but trusted the guide and dropped in. Subsequent avalanche took him over a cliff and he's paralysed from the waist down. Easy to think the guide always knows best, but those photos are a timely reminder that you always need to be aware of surroundings in the mountains and not just follow the sheep.
Just booked to go 17th January. Staying in Tignes Le Lac. Been a few times before , its just the snow ( so far ) has been patchy with only 1 storm and nothing in the immediate future.
This is why we are going for altitude and a hight resort. The freeze line climbs right up over the weekend . Really hope we get some new snow around 20th Jan to top up whats left.
Personally I wouldnt have gone and put off going for a week , but my skiing buddy has to organise cover , childcare , wife all around us going away.
No really great deals , although we paid approx half price , with a BOGOHP lift pass deal as well. Wont be doing 3 trips this year.
Use your own brain Michael, your clearly have one as you saw danger where one local "expert" didn't and your own guide was happy to follow like a sheep. Guides die regularly and two local ones have "lost" clients but survived themselves.
Seconded Edukator, you can see someone's taken a safer line further to skiiers rights.
Well I'm tempted to say thats the last time I post any photos up on here, cheers boys 😛 .
But I don't think you can say an awful lot about that particular cornice from a photo?? With only one big dump of snow this winter so far, it can't have been that big. And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge, and it doesn't look like it has much overhang at all. Maybe you overlooked the sentence where I said we were behind a group being led by the writer of the touring guide book for the area.
I am relatively new to backcountry stuff in the alps, I've realised the whole approach and attitude towards it is entirely different to Canada which I'm still getting to grips with. As in, everything in France is considered closed or out of bounds once you go off piste. So I'm new to this kind of approach where all of your safety is pretty much down to you. But in that situation, I think it was fair to follow my guide with 25 years experience, so I don't appreciate people saying I was just following like a sheep.
Not trying to seem nonchalant about the whole thing, just not sure you are all being fair. In all seriousness though, should I send the pic to the ESF to see what they have to say about it?
Just booked to go 17th January. Staying in Tignes Le Lac. Been a few times before , its just the snow ( so far ) has been patchy with only 1 storm and nothing in the immediate future.
High and north you should be fine!! 🙂
Friend of a friend was caught in an avalanche a few years ago when with a guide. He had a bad feeling about it, but trusted the guide and dropped in. Subsequent avalanche took him over a cliff and he's paralysed from the waist down.
Scary enough. I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide. In a way you'd have to wonder why he chose a line above a cliff though.
We were touring with a guide last year when the whole slope went. Having a guide doesn't make you immune to the usual objective dangers and you still need to exercise your own discretion.
For me guiding is more about geography and where the best conditions are rather than mountain sense. I've been mountaineering long enough to trust my own judgement (not wishing to sound cocky just been at it for over 30 years).
With only one big dump of snow this winter so far, it can't have been that big. And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge, and it doesn't look like it has much overhang at all.
You're joking, right?? Cornices are formed by snow carried by wind. You need very little snow to fall to cause a significant cornice if there's a decent wind. And 15 foot is nowt!
only one big dump of snow this winter so far
All valid points above, but this is the big one for most! Resorts are looking pretty bare in places!
Cornices are formed by snow carried by wind.
And how is this said wind going to carry the snow if it hasn't fallen out of the sky at all 🙄 .
You and your guide were there Michael and I assume made your judgements based on the full picture not a few snaps. Nobody else on this forum was there with you and photos can be very misleading so whatever their level of experience and knowledge they are armchair critics in this.
michaelmcc - MemberAnd how is this said wind going to carry the snow if it hasn't fallen out of the sky at all
michaelmcc - MemberWith only one big dump of snow this winter so far
Point was that very little snow needs to fall [b]out of the sky[/b] to form a cornice. It can be transported in large quantities over large distances by wind long after it's fallen, forming cornices on leeward sides of ridges. In other words, only one big dump this winter doesn't equate to small or safe cornices. They are often formed over time, long after the snow has actually fallen. Didn't the cornice at the top of Number 4 gully on the Ben go last week and take a few people with it? It's not exactly been that snowy in Scotland yet this year...
As pointed out above, the guide [i]probably[/i] knew exactly what he was doing but, based on the photos, I'd have questioned his line choice and asked we ski the safer line further back from the edge. You only get one chance at getting it wrong in circumstances like that and not worth the risk.
I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide.
I'm not sure what/if any conclusions you'd be able to derive whatever the stats ... traveling in the backcountry is inherently dangerous.
Since a significant percentage of the people in the backcountry will be guides then sadly they will figure in the stats - for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time rather than any poor decision making on their part
The review of last seasons French Avalanches makes for sober reading ...
[url= http://pistehors.com/review-of-avalanche-incidents-for-the-winter-2013-14-23635655.htm ]Review of French Avalanches[/url]
On a poignant but lighter note the Guide Seb Montaz (who's currently working & filming with Kilian Jornet) once told me the joke:
Q. "What's the difference between God and a High Mountain Guide?
A. "God doesn't think he's a High Mountain Guide"
Like the God / Mountain Guide quote! 🙂
I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide.
Don't know about stats but there was a very recent example - New Year's Eve, Serre Chevalier:
On New Years Eve a group of ski tourers were caught by an avalanche near the Col du Galibier above Serre Chevalier. A 40 year old man, resisdent of Marseille, was buried under 150 cm of snow just after midday. Recovered in a state of severe hypothermia by the rescue services he was heliported to Grenoble hospital where he died of his injuries.The man was part of a group of four ski tourers including a high mountain guide. According to the prefecture the route didn't present any technical difficulty. The slide measured 100x140 meters. The avalanche risk was Considerable (3/5) in the range at the time. The guide was interviewed by the police as part of an initial manslaughter inquiry into the incident.
Ok then.
As an alternative to pointing out what should have been done after the event, can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
Don't really know enough to enter into the cornice debate. 🙂
Did a couple of days in Kitzbuhel and Steinplatte over the holidays. Snow was great though we were lucky as webcams on xmas eve showed bare runs and green resorts. It started snowing as we approached Munich and didn't stop until New Years Eve. Off piste still a bit sketchy as there was no real base, but still lots of powdery fun to be had.
That god/mountain guide joke is a take-off of an old joke about Buddy Rich I think.
@torso - if you book an off piste guide in a French resort from an established company they'll have the qualifications and experience. I did a day with a guide in Val d'Isere 30 years ago (first Brit/Scot - to have the French high mountain qualification I recall) and what he said was something like;
[i]I am here to keep you as safe as possible, I can reduce the risks but I cannot eliminate them[/i]
useful guide here on general avalanche safety advice from Mountaineering Council of Scotland - there's a bit on cornices further down:
[url= http://www.mcofs.org.uk/avalanche-safety-advice.asp ]MCOFS[/url]
And a nice example of one giving way 😯 :
That god/mountain guide joke is a take-off of an old joke about Buddy Rich I think
Yeah - there's a version of it in the film Airheads with Steve Buscemi regarding Lemmy! 8)
can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
To list a few:
Check the BMC website for Winter Mountaineering books, DVDs & courses
Have a look at 'Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain' by Bruce Tremper
Also don't discount your instincts - I did a guided trip a few years ago where conditions were mixed and one of the clients got spooked and said 'I've got a bad feeling about this' ... so we turned back no argument.
As an alternative to pointing out what should have been done after the event, can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
I wouldn't say i had a depth of experience but a few years ago, whilst doing a season in Red Mountain BC, I did a 2-day avalanche course with the Canadian Avalanche Association. Really useful, spent some time on theory on snow layering, risks but also managing a rescue scene. Spent a lot of time on digging out snow columns to assess the snow pack and a lot of time practicing with beacons. It culminated with a full on rescue scenario in the back country. Really useful experience. Here in Morzine a few places offer really quite short avalanche courses - 2 hours is typical, which are better than nothing I guess (unless they give a false confidence) but for my liking are not long enough to get real practice in.
If you have a beacon, get out and practice with it including looking for multiple burials. Last season I took my neighbours, with whom I had been off-piste quite a bit, out for a practice search and it was a real eye-opener - took them half an hour to find the second of two beacons!
A lot of the north american resorts have practice beacon fields where a random buried beacon gets turned on and you go look for it. I've not noticed any of these in Europe. Practice, practice, practice. The beacon is not just for you to be found but for you to find your mates!
Anyway, the CAA has some useful learning info for a starting point:
[url= http://www.avalanche.ca/training#ast1 ]Canadian avalanche association learning page[/url]
Now just hoping for some new snow!
And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge,
He is and the traces nearer to camera are much closer to the edge and beyond the break line IMO.
Send the pictures to the ESF and see what they say.
You can go pretty much wherever you want In France BTW. The only areas in which someone might stop you are the areas around "zones sécurisées" in ski resorts where they fear you might bring stuff down on other skiers. Suicide is legal but putting others in danger is not.
There was a beacon practice field in Les Arcs IIRC. Think I've seen one elsewhere in Europe too.
A lot of the north american resorts have practice beacon fields where a random buried beacon gets turned on and you go look for it. I've not noticed any of these in Europe.
Italy has quite a few practice fields - very useful for doing multiple burial searches.
And another vote for the Canadian Avalanche Association course. Despite already having done a few backcountry/avalanche awareness courses I found it very thorough, indepth and useful. Problem is that in Europe, a two day course is a big chunk of a weeks holiday for many people.
OK, looks like there are practice fields over here. Anyone know of any in the Portes du Soleil?
