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Rubbish. I'd be cross, and not be happy being told that I'd been a sweaty, filthy pig and to go home and wash my clothes.
Burton have got some strong points, but outerwear isn't one of them, in my experience.
They make stuff that's tuned to looking and feeling great when you're in the shop, but not delivering when you need it to.
I'd be cross, and not be happy being told that I'd been a sweaty, filthy pig and to go home and wash my clothes
Thing is the missus, who knows my smell better than most, agreed that wasn't dirty at all. Apparently the guy was pointing at a couple of grubby marks by the pockets and saying "See?" like that was causing the entire DWR to fail?!?
Burton have got some strong points, but outerwear isn't one of them, in my experience.
Is that a recent thing? They [i]used[/i] to be good. My old Burton Tempest jacket that this replaced was a bit tattered and dated, but still going pretty strong after nearly a decade of use on snow and as a wet weather jacket. And my Burton Cargo pants are great.
That's kinda why I'd stuck with them.
@ GrahamS - I'd be very dissapointed if I'd received that level of poor response from Snow & Rock - I'm kindof surprised as I'd always had good service from the Sheffield shop (before it burnt down).
But I gave up with most snowboard 'specific' clothing years ago. As I was buying a new jacket etc almost every year! 🙁
The majority of snowboard clothing is the epitome of 'style over substance' unfortunately with most items being too warm/padded/bulky but with insufficient weather proofing - leaving you damp & chilly, and some stuff just fell apart 🙁
Pretty happy with my Westbeach jacket. Has lasted a few trips now with no signs of wear and tear, and I've not re proofed it yet with no issues. They were as cheap as £70 from SP at one point (not where I got it from).
It's this one:
http://www.skatedeluxe.ch/en/westbeach-ridge-runner-snowboard-jacket-heli-red_p37303
Westbeach was one of the brands whose kit just fell apart for me - you were clearly luckier in your choice:
During a particular cold spell (-20 celsius) in BC I was acute aware of 'Stephen & the Twins' retreating inside my body every time I picked up a bit of speed on the board - felt like I'd left my flies wide open ... turned out the stitching in the trouser/crotch dept had ripped leaving a large hole in the 'tinter' vicinity. 😳 I would often spend the evenings sewing each new hole back up and covering with 'duct tape' ...!
I'd be funkin livid at both the quality and the service. £70/8k O'Neill from Tkmax is better than that.
Funnily enough my first proper snowboard jacket was a Westbeach, waaay back in the day. It was a fine jacket too.
I actually considered going back to Westbeach instead of getting the Stagger, but Westbeach had gone all fashionable multi-colour clown-outfit last year which really doesn't suit me. (That Heli Red above looks alright though)
As a jacket my Stagger seems really good in terms of features, comfort, weight and breathability etc. But if it gets soaked by snow then what is the point in it?
I'll be pushing for a refund, especially now the zip is broke too.
Poor service there Graham.
I still my Westbeach jacket which is now 10 years old. It's been washed and reproofed after every season and the colours are now back in fashion.
[i]Burton have got some strong points, but outerwear isn't one of them, in my experience.
[/i]
Oi! my Burton coat is fantastic! Was £80 i think and this week I've only needed a merino base layer under it. No sign of wear and I've worn it more than just on holidays too.
Aaaanyway.. after my quite negative post earlier this week, things have worked out brilliantly, thanks to a powder day with Rob (singletrackmind) and some chums from my chalet, its been utterly awesome 😀
Wooo! pow!
Burton - fine! did say "in my experience"
which was: a pair of gloves which didn't last anywhere near as long as Levels, an AK jacket which had a lovely feeling face fabric (and MAGNETS , but lasted hardly any time at all before wearing through, and a pair of boots which went 2 weeks of hard use before the liner packed out. Faff and discomfort for a further week and bit before I called it a day: Even with a pair of socks folded under the tongue, I still had to cinch the laces so ticht the outer started crushing my toes.
Malamutes, ME, Rab, Noronna, much happier.
And TREW gear. Great bibs.
@Graham that's very poor, I would push back along the lines of jacket not suitable for stated purchase, not of merchantable quality. I buy a lot from S&R and I'd be disappointed with that service. I don't know the Burton brand that well as we've only had some kids stuff from them which I have to say was ok as we got it cheap.
Anyway bottom line is you can reproof the jacket yourself with Nikwax products but only after you've given up ranting st shop.
This thread has largely passed me by again this year. The more I read, the more I want to do more skiing. Curse the expensive nature of the sport...
Am I allowed to be annoying and plug stuff briefly?
A good mate of mine is starting making some lovely handmade timber skis, and has applied for a grant - check out the short videos on here and consider voting for Lonely Mountain Skis if you think it sounds like a cool project.
Only takes a second, like.
http://www.shell-livewire.org/awards/grand-ideas-awards
Malamutes, ME, Rab, Noronna, much happier
Malamutes are great aren't they? (if you have the right/wrong shaped feet that is - although i did have to cut out the internal 'cinch' buckle/loop, as it caused foot pain when my bindings were cranked up tight)
Over the years my trials & errors in clothing & kit has resulted in:
Arc'teryx, Rab, Sweet Protection, TNF & Howies merinos (8 yrs old and still rockin') ... i.e. a GORETEX shell outershell with requisite layers.
Alpine/Mountaineering stuff seems to work well without the bulk of many 'snow sport' specific clothing - especially when hiking/touring. Watching ski sunday the other week, I couldn't help but notice that the lovely Jenny Jones had to strap her huge bulky snowboard jacket to the outside of her rucksack when spliting in NZ ...
Off to Tignes tomorrow for a week ..... (sorry Flashy), made worse by the 11 days in Flaine in March!
New skis and new boots, hope they're good otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed girly.
Anyone want some K2 crossfire skis?
Au revoir
Hi All - the avalanche risk reporting thing is frustrating for me as an avalanche/mountain professional (I'm an International Mountain Leader who trains people in avalanche safety) rather than anything much to do with the chalet business - although I'm getting slightly frustrated reassuring clients that they are going to be OK on their ski holiday despite what they've read in the Telegraph.
Avalanche risk changes rapidly. It would be entirely normal for the risk level to go from level 1 ("Low") to 4 ("High") and back to, say, 2 ("Moderate") within 3 or 4 days as new snow arrives and then settles. So a hysterical newspaper article (which is probably 2 or 3 days out of date by the time it's written) talking about "dangerous avalanche conditions" is almost entirely useless in deciding whether or not conditions are going to be safe for your ski holiday in 2 weeks time.
"Most Deadly Start to the Season in the Swiss Alps in a gazillion years" - well, maybe. But how do you define the start of the season? Why is the grouping of incidents to the "Swiss Alps" relevant? (The Swiss Alps is a huge area and avalanche conditions may well be wildly different from one area to another). If there were no avalanche deaths in Italy, France and Austria, then maybe for the Alps as a whole it's actually the safest start to the season in a gazillion years (not suggesting this is the case!) yet this headline makes people think it's a really bad situation. From memory (haven't fact-checked) the start of last season almost certainly saw more deaths in the French Alps than this year. The worst season for avalanche deaths in a long time was 2010-2011 (which was actually a very poor snow year).
The widely-reported "weak layer" in the snowpack is actually a pretty normal early-season phenomenon - it's caused by a thin snowpack and cold weather, which is pretty-much what you'd expect to find in December. The effect was, admittedly, quite pronounced this year because we had a lot of snow in November, then cold, dry weather in December. Nevertheless, it's pretty normal for the time of year. This type of weak layer (depth hoar) does normally remain in the snowpack for a long time and could therefore be expected to remain a worry throughout the season. In fact, though, some un-seasonably mild weather and a decent amount of snowfall finally arriving seem to have reduced the risk quicker than expected. The avalanche risk in my local area (Tarentaise Valley / Savoie) is currently level 2 - 3. The "3" at altitude is due to windslab created by strongish winds over the last day or so. The early-season depth-hoar layer is considered to have stabilised for the most part, although it's still worth taking account of when making decisions.
This, of course, is my opinion and is based on my interpretation of the local avalanche forecasting, plus my own observation of the snow and weather conditions when I'm out in the mountains every day.
Make your own decisions - don't base your judgement on some weeks-old article you read in a newspaper or on a website. Don't base it on what I'm telling you either, I could well be wrong!
The best source of information is the local avalanche forecast, usually updated every 24 hours at least (anything older than that is pretty-much useless). You can find avalanche forecasts (and other info) for most places in Europe at www.avalanches.org
EDIT: Interestingly, having just checked some statistics at www.anena.org (French avalanche reporting/training body), 2010-2011 actually came out as quite a "safe" year in terms of number of deaths in the end. I remember it as being really bad because of a number of widely-reported accidents in my local area where several people were killed in single avalanche incidents. So I guess I'm as vulnerable to over-blown reporting as anyone!
And just to lighten the tone - taken on Wednesday. It was pretty good. We're not dead.
[img] 
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Well said, Stevo.
Years back when I was a seasonner, I knew from local conditions and from reading the weather report for the valley where would be the safest places to go on different days and if I was in any doubt, I'd go and pay a visit to the pisteur's huts. Still, I was far from an expert, but being in the same valley for several years gives you an insight that you just cannot get on a week or two each year.
As a punter, I am not in touch with the specific local conditions, so if going properly off-piste, I'd be going with a guide.
Edit: You might not be dead, but I'd kill to get freshies like that again 😉
Morzine tomorrow. Thankfully the conditions look better than they were last week!
Nice 'rooster' stevomcd! 😉
Has anyone been to Levi, Finland?
We fancy going as a bit of a break to ski, rather than a skiing holiday. Hoping to experience somewhere new and different, maybe to catch sight of the Northern lights.
However the very cold temperatures are quite off putting. Having experienced very low temps in Canada on a couple of occasions it was an unpleasant experience trying to ski, when bits of you are either frozen up or not working.
Couple of pics from Lech last week. Missing it already!
[img] 
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Rob & Richard
[img] 
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The selfie. Dunno how that snow had got on me 🙂
[img] 
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We dun some tracks
We dun some tracks
OMG! OMG! THEY WENT OFF PISTE! OMG! OMG!
😉
Crazy guys huh! 😛
Shame the snow wasn't better lower down - trees were no go.
2010-2011 actually came out as quite a "safe" year in terms of number of deaths in the end. I remember it as being really bad because of a number of widely-reported accidents in my local area where several people were killed in single avalanche incidents
Great post & very interesting stevomcd ... is it possible that 2010/12 season is subject to the same phenomenon as the Everest Disaster in 1996? i.e. although the loss of life in particular incidents was disturbingly high, the overall (possibly subjectively calculated) fatality rate percentage was low making it a relatively 'safe' year ...
I've just been asked if I know anything about these guys.
http://www.offpisteskiing.com/
I don't. Any experience here?
Thanks!
Any rec's for a resort for a family at the end of Feb please?
Taking into account avalanche risk naturally 🙂
Kids have skiied once, missus is hesitant and since I buggered my knee Im looking to ski more red than black
Location utterly flexible but have noticed our week is Paris half term so thinking not France
Missus fancies Austria - no idea why
Main 'want' is lots of greens and blues for the kids, decent instruction and not too busy
When we decide on resort I'll look at accommodation
Thanks all 🙂
We went to Geilo in Norway when my kid was first learning. Perfect for beginners. Runs aren't that long so good for your knee 🙂 Just don't expect to get drunk out there.
[quote=nedrapier ]I've just been asked if I know anything about these guys.
> http://www.offpisteskiing.com/ br />
I don't. Any experience here?
Thanks!
Not used them myself. the owner / main guy is a poster over on snowheads. good reputation and good feedback in the main.
A little info on jacket tech
Gortex is patented and is expensive $10 per metre, most of rest is $4-6 per metre and works up to about 80% of Gortex.
There is only one breathability/permeability testing machine in Europe, so probably most manufactures claims are probably suspect!!
Add in a back pack with constricting straps and contact, and all bets are off.
Add in a couple of weeks, wear and tear and high UV and they prob only last 3-4 seasons!!
Info from someone who manufactures ski jackets and sells 1.7m per annum!!
nedrapier - pretty active over on Snowheads, lots of trip reports, etc. on there.
Digby - definitely possible. There were at least 3 incidents in Val d'Isere that year where big groups (skiing with guides) were caught in huge avalanches, resulting in multiple fatalities (at least 20 killed in Val d'Isere alone). For that reason, it sticks-out in my mind.
The stats definitely don't back that up though. Stats from the last 40 years for France available here (helps if you speak French...): http://www.anena.org/5041-bilan-des-accidents.htm#par36720
Similarly, 1998-99 (the year of the Montroc avalanche) looks only slightly above average.
Cheers [b]catvet[/b] - but presumably you'd expect a (branded) Gore-tex jacket, worn without a pack, to have a decent DWR coating that would still bead water during its very first week of use?
Missus fancies Austria - no idea whyMain 'want' is lots of greens and blues for the kids, decent instruction and not too busy
Austria is great - I've banged on about this many a time but in for a penny etc....
Austrian resorts tend to be in proper towns/villages rather than purpose built resorts. They tend to be a lot lower than French resorts, but still often have great snow. Year before last I went to St Johann in Tirol where the top of the highest lift is only 1700m and it was great - powder on several of the days we were there.
In Austria you get a wonderful traditional Alpine mountain experience, and food and hospitality is generally of a very high standard (and not at all expensive). All the resorts I've been to have been really child-friendly too.
Also, and this massively depends on your outlook - go to France and mostly the mountain huts will play music you'd hear anywhere, or bland French pop. Go to Austria and the mountain huts mostly play either traditional Austrian folk music, or ridiculous 'turbo-folk' - for me it all adds to the experience!
^ What grum said. Austria is good.
Graham
Yep I would contact Burton directly.
The guy that manufactures the ski jackets lives in the Alps for the season and has done for a few years now (an extremely wealthy man) would never buy a ski jacket for more than £200 !!
Graham, I would expect beading for a week, yes. Not sure why S&R have been a bit rubbish for you, as they're usually a whole heap better than that.
Nearly bought a Burton jacket myself once, but just couldn't get on with the fixed hood (As a helmet wearer)
would never buy a ski jacket for more than £200 !!
Most I've spent on a jacket - it was meant to be a bit of a treat for myself. 🙁 Given that I only get away a couple of weeks a year, a jacket usually lasts me a good while. Think my last one did a decade at least and is still wearable.
couldn't get on with the fixed hood (As a helmet wearer)
Yeah there is a hood on this one. Not sure why. Useful for going to the pub afterwards I suppose.
Not sure why. Useful for going to the pub afterwards I suppose.
From my time in the ski/bike industry, I have a whole bag full of free beanies. These are worn for post-ski-walks to the pub* for a few beers when it's a little nippy outside.
*Sorry, I meant, I wear them for apres, dahhhhling. I do so love some apres. They're my apres hats. I wear them with my apres boots and apres gloves when I'm having some apres. Dahhhhling.
Hood is a big plus for me. Must be helmet-compatible of course.
Days when it's puking and windy, but the snow in the trees is amazing - pull the hood up over helmet, goggles, facemask, the lot. Ahhhh, bliss....
Must be helmet-compatible of course.
Doesn't that leave you with [url=
Yup! +1 for a helmet compatible jacket with hood.
I've not needed it that often, but when I have I've really appreciated it (including being stuck on a chilly chairlift in strong winds for >45 mins ... I did get a voucher though from RCR, which covered beer & nachos! 8-))
Doesn't that leave you with batman-neck?
lol GrahamS - very good! 🙂
Depends really on the relative size of your hood and your helmet and how tight you like to cinch it up 😉 ... make of that what you will!
I've decided I don't need a jacket for this season. I'm just going to grow out my back hair instead.
[img] http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63553%3Enu%3D3363%3E2%3C6%3E%3A6%3B%3EWSNRCG%3D379998%3C857336nu0mrj [/img]
I saw a man skiing in a kilt, earlier today. His balls must have been like frozen peas.
Gotta get the fit just right, so the hood turns with your head. Nothing worse than your head turning inside the hood! Especially when snowboarding...