I mean, ignoring just for a second the actual incident, it really is a smashing example of how something that could be sorted with a simple, early statement of contrition and apology can instead, if you really put your mind to it, be turned into a weapons-grade clu$terf__k, isn't it?
I suspect he is/was a narcissist and entitled white patriarch of the highest order. Probably spent a lot of his life trampling over people whilst wearing a cheeky smile.
He royally ****ed himself.
Pretty much. I think a proper apology. " I got carried away with the emotion of the win and went beyond acceptable behaviour, I am sorry" and its all over.
Now - as you say its grown arms and legs.
Indeed. Perhaps it can be used as a lesson for anyone like him using the "sorry for those who were offended" apology he offered.
I think a proper apology. ” I got carried away with the emotion of the win and went beyond acceptable behaviour, I am sorry” and its all over.
Yup, that, with ideally the addition of "I've offered my apology to Ms Hermoso which she has graciously accepted". Done and done. But no, he was in a hole so he cracked out his JCB...
Loving the mother on hunger strike too WTAF 😳
does seem to have turned into a bit of a witch hunt, not sure the pitch forks are really needed
even if he had just made a simple apology I'm not sure it would have been sufficient to stop the press etc... making a massive deal out of it and escalating it
Seems to have turned into much more of an assessment on Spanish attitudes towards women than just a single example.
Based on the reactions it does seem that the public and general response to him has been justified
DT 78 - its sexual assault. It is a big deal.
There was an interview with a Spanish lady on the radio before the final, and she was saying how important a win for Spain would be in that it would put fully into the spotlight the levels of misogyny in Spanish football and society in general. I don't imagine she thought it would create a spotlight this bright.
I didn't say what he did was ok, I just think it is massively being blown out of proportion and doesnt need a witch hunt. Just my view, and I know it not a popularist one.
I don't think it's popularist to say that women should be treated equally and without prejudice.
I just think it is massively being blown out of proportion and doesnt need a witch hunt. Just my view, and I know it not a popularist one.
The act was bad, the follow-up made it much, much worse. A little humility, contrition and understanding from his side may well have seen this issue go away. By being so 'blokey' about it, he has just made it worse and shone a spotlight on wider issues of misogamy in the game.
Not saying it's right, however Spain is way behind the UK in terms of general social equality. Turn on the TV to a game show there and it's still someone in a bikini wandering around with the prizes. So if we say they're maybe 25 years "behind" us and imagine what an English manager would have said in a similar situation in 98, it maybe explains why things have turned out as they have
The fact he came out and said it was consensual as his defense, which she then refuted, is blatantly going to turn this into a witch-hunt. They then threatened to sue her FFS.
What he did was wrong and there's no excusing it. But, I think everyone and every crime should be treated equally and I'm not sure that's whats happening here. He does seem to have become the focal point for this type of behaviour in ALL of Spain - that's not really fair. What choice does he have now, but to try and fight it? If he doesn't his career, possibly his life is ruined - because of an inappropriate act in the heat of the moment. Would anyone else, under less public circumstances suffer the same fate? How about a comparable crime? What if he'd punched someone - common assault. A fine, possibly dismissal, but not infamy and ostricisation by society.
Saying all that, I don't really know what's been happening behind the scenes.
Somewhat overshadowed the good news of the women's world Cup and the wonderful football it played and celebrated. The harm its doing by destroying the promotion of women's football at this opportunity vs the good it is doing* to change attitudes of acceptable behaviour seems to have been forgotten.
*there are different views for some.
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but not infamy
Is that not guaranteed if you commit a crime on TV in front of the whole world?
Daffy - its his aggressive defense ie stating it was consensual when it was not, accusing her of lying. Using his power to force support, threatening to sue her. He has compounded the offense many times over
it has all the hallmarking of a witch hunt.
sure charge him with serial assault and let the courts decide.
no need for anything more
he did make it worse by his "apology" however I very much doubt any form of apology would placate the frothing mob that is being stoked by the press.
does seem to have turned into a bit of a witch hunt, not sure the pitch forks are really needed
even if he had just made a simple apology I’m not sure it would have been sufficient to stop the press etc… making a massive deal out of it and escalating it
He literally fabricated a statement by Jennifer Hermoso and sent it out to the press, telling them that it was her words.
And when she pointed out that it was fake, he threatened to sue her!!!
This is absolutely pitch fork stuff IMO. As pointed out, the original kiss was a ****up but could have been sorted with a sensible apology, with no 'witch hunt'. But by attempting to destroy a player's reputation with lies and legal threats, he marched straight past the 'Streisand Effect' signpost, and kept going all the way to the '4 Seasons Total Landscaping' podium. He brought it on himself.
The Spanish FA has quite a few characters at the top aligned with far-right political parties, including this bean head. This latest incident is part of a bigger picture of ongoing issues the women's team have had with an entrenched organizational patriarchy where football is seen as a "men only" space.
Public opinion is generally on her side but there are still quite a few Spanish with a deeply conservative / Catholic worldview - 15% of the public voted for an anti-abortion party which wants to repeal gender violence laws and close the ministry of equality, so there is still some way to go.
If he doesn’t his career, possibly his life is ruined – because of an inappropriate act in the heat of the moment.
AND a subsequent libel and defamation!
It wasn't just a kiss, it was followed up with a falsified, defamatory statement, and threats of legal action that could have ruined her financially. That's why everyone's losing the plot over it.
It wasn't in the heat of the moment. It was spread over a whole week.
What he did was wrong and there’s no excusing it. But, I think everyone and every crime should be treated equally and I’m not sure that’s whats happening here.
According to a Spanish journalist interviewed on radio 4 this morning he's got loads of form for this kind of thing and this is just the latest in a long list of transgressions
I don’t really know what’s been happening behind the scenes.
quite a lot- plenty of their best players refused to play unless the manager was dismissed. He wasn’t, so they’re still out in the cold. Looks quite systemic.
Well done to the Spanish for managing to make the FA look comparatively progressive and competent though. 😳
This was hung up in downtown Madrid a couple of months ago. Feminism and LGBTQ being "thrown in the trash." It's not just the UK with issues.
I didn’t say what he did was ok, I just think it is massively being blown out of proportion and doesnt need a witch hunt. Just my view, and I know it not a popularist one.
I'm not sure it is a witch hunt (probably a poor choice of words given we are talking about women being abused!). His inability to resolve the situation (with a suitable and genuine apology or resignation) is why this has become a big deal. He made a speech from the stage about why he should stay because he's so great and achieved a win for the women etc. He believes he is bigger than the scandal - that's Boris, Trump, Andrew Tait, style gaslighting and is exactly why he needs to go.
Personally, the kiss on its own I would just have assumed was a Spanish cultural thing, and I wouldn't actually have been that surprised if he kissed the men's team in the same way - they do things differently out there and it all gets a bit emotional. BUT the crotch grabbing in the stands was just weird - and probably merits him going just for that.
the kiss on its own I would just have assumed was a Spanish cultural thing, and I wouldn’t actually have been that surprised if he kissed the men’s team in the same way
When I first saw the headline, it didn't even occur to me that it was a women (I don't follow sport at all so the use of the woman's surname didn't inform me). Having seen Spanish and Italian men kiss each other - on the lips - in a non-sexual way, I did initially wonder what the fuss was about.
He does seem to have become the focal point for this type of behaviour in ALL of Spain – that’s not really fair
Unfortunately (or not, given his previous reputation) for him, societal change requires big moments, and thst means big casualties. You can't make an example of all misogynistic men in Spain, but you can do so with a high profile individual.
Given Spains recent history and the whole "wolf pack" issues, it needs to be done.
When I first saw the headline, it didn’t even occur to me that it was a women (I don’t follow sport at all so the use of the woman’s surname didn’t inform me). Having seen Spanish and Italian men kiss each other – on the lips – in a non-sexual way, I did initially wonder what the fuss was about.
Yeah, i just thought it was the press making something out of nothing, as you say, it's felt like a normal thing to do, male or female, but more is coming to light now, unfortunately it's now grown into a battleground, which will never end well for either side involved, as it's now being discussed in government, foreign countries, etc, you can almost see them circling the wagons for this one.
As also stated, Spain isn't the most progressive country when it comes to this stuff, or racism as we've seen countless times over the years, or corruption, or religion, and on and on.
What he did was wrong and there’s no excusing it. But, I think everyone and every crime should be treated equally and I’m not sure that’s whats happening here. He does seem to have become the focal point for this type of behaviour in ALL of Spain – that’s not really fair.
If you are a high profile person, act badly in public and then try to defend yourself then I think it is entirely fair if you become the poster guy for all people who act badly and show no remorse.
What choice does he have now, but to try and fight it?
If he doesn’t his career, possibly his life is ruined – because of an inappropriate act in the heat of the moment.
Does your moral compass apply to all professions. A doctor making an inappropriate comment to a patient in a state of undress - what choice does he have but to fight it? A teacher who buys alcohol for pupils on a school trip - no real harm done - what choice but to fight it? a police officer found in possession of drugs - what choice but to fight it? An accountant who screws up his taxes - what choice but to fight it? Surely what we want is people to admit their mistakes even if it ends their career. The damage will be much larger if they fight genuine claims, and whilst many admit a mistake and "learn" from it they take a backward step but long term isn't world-ending. When you won't admit your error the consequences really should be much greater than those who do.
Would anyone else, under less public circumstances suffer the same fate?
I'm pretty certain if one of my female staff came back with a contract win we had spent 4 years working on and I grabbed her and kissed her like that I'd have some difficult explaining to do. If I denied it and made up excuses and the CCTV showed I was bullshitting I'd expect to be thrown under the bus. I don't work in a high profile role in an organisation that should have been showing how equality works for the better.
How about a comparable crime? What if he’d punched someone – common assault. A fine, possibly dismissal, but not infamy and ostricisation by society.
If they had lost and he'd punched the captain of the opposition team, I'd expect he was out of a job? if he stood on a platform a few days later and said "you can't sack me I am too great, the other guy expected this to happen, its a demonstration of the passion in our sport" I'd expect he never worked in football again!
Frankly, if you think that assaulting people and denying it, is not so bad and kissing women without their agreement and making up stuff to cover your tracks should have minimal consequences then you probably want to look in the mirror. Is this how you behave?
It's perfectly normal to kiss on both cheeks as a greeting in Spain. But that's more a social thing, you wouldn't go to work and kiss you boss on the cheek...
Well, maybe if you work for the mafia!
I'm not for a second saying it was appropriate to plant one on her lips but I agree with some of the above comments that an apology such as I'm very sorry I got caught up in the moment... Would have been the end of it.
As often it's the attitude and the doubling down after the event that's a lot more concerning /telling and damaging.
Pretty much. I think a proper apology. ” I got carried away with the emotion of the win and went beyond acceptable behaviour, I am sorry” and its all over.
Now – as you say its grown arms and legs
pretty much this. Unacceptable behavior, made multiple times worse by subsequent actions. Let’s face it, it’s only going to end one way now, he’s living in cloud cookoo land if he thinks he’s keeping his job after this.
He'll lose his job, then he'll be the victim for the right wingers who will use this in underhanded arguments against everything they don't like, same as over here with the likes of Farage.
Women's football is at a real decision point just now, and this whole issue is just going to cause more bitterness and arguments.
Does your moral compass apply to all professions.
Ah - so I lack morals? None of those things are happening in the public spotlight. I was considering more along the lines of where a manager/player lashes out in football - thus heat of the moment assault, but they're not vilified forever for it. Heck, Zidane went on to win the Golden Boot, be a national hero of France and be a football manager after publicly headbutting someone in the chest - it wasn't his first time either.
I’m pretty certain if one of my female staff came back with a contract win we had spent 4 years working on and I grabbed her and kissed her like that I’d have some difficult explaining to do.
Whilst equally inappropriate, it's hardly the same circumstances, is it?
My point was more about trying people in the court of public opinion rather than on the specifics of their case and in particular about the stigma that can be associated with high profile cases involving high profile people who have not been proven to have done anything wrong, but which are damaged by it regardless of any outcome. I'm thinking Cliff Richard / Yewtree.
Regardless of the above - I wasn't aware of his fabricated statement, just his assertions which state she picked him up (which she did - the photo's show this) and that he then kissed her - or did he kiss her first? - I knew nothing about a supposed conversation. I also didn't know he had past form for this type of behaviour. But why, then would the RSFA go to bat for him if it was so patently false and he has history?
pretty much this. Unacceptable behavior, made multiple times worse by subsequent actions. Let’s face it, it’s only going to end one way now, he’s living in cloud cookoo land if he thinks he’s keeping his job after this.
but wont someone think of his poor Mum!!
why, then would the RSFA go to bat for him if it was so patently false?
Indeed. Why DID the Spanish FA risk everything to back him up? Why did they gloss over not just the incident itself, but also the video where he said everyone who was offended 'was an idiot'? Why DID they release a fabricated statement, supposedly from the player, which was in fact a bunch of lies? Even the Spanish prime minister called for him to go, but they are backing him to the hilt.
And why did they then go nuclear and ask to be removed from the Champions League etc?? They really have risked everything here. It's spectacular.
Surely it would have been much more sensible to suspend or fire him, or at least announce some investigation and say you can't possibly comment while there's an investigation, and then quietly let him back in once it blows over.
What's he got on them? It all smells really really fishy.
Which is why it has become much more of a story than just 'the heat of the moment'.
plenty of their best players refused to play unless the manager was dismissed. He wasn’t, so they’re still out in the cold.
Probably worth pointing out, Those 15 players have stated categorically that the identical emails they sent last year to the Spanish FA did not contain any call for the dismissal of Vilda, it was the Spanish FA that claimed they were demanding it. A good example tho of how their FA have continuously twisted words to suite them, most recently Hermoso's. The players also sent the emails privately, but their FA chose to make it public, presumably to try and discredit them and basically saying they weren't welcome back until they saw the error of their ways and begged for forgiveness. contrast the French FA who immediately instigated change, when the core players went on strike a few months ago.
On the subject of Vilda, I listened to a podcast a few weeks ago where a Spanish Journo explained what had gone on in camp during the Euros last year and it was gobsmacking, basically they were treated like children on a school trip (Jenni Hermoso is 33).
theres a very fine line between a heat of the moment over reaction, and an opportunistic perv taking advantage of the situation.
The difference is now that the line is recognised as fine, people known that its not appropriate, and therefore stay well behind the line as to avoid any confusion.
ie: Im so happy i could kiss you, but im not going to because it might be misconstrued.
Leaving the opportunistic pervs toeing the line seeing what they can get away with and pass off as heat of the moment passions.
Women’s football is at a real decision point just now, and this whole issue is just going to cause more bitterness and arguments.
Or a murky pit of sexism and mysogeny is going to be cleaned up. a huge boost for womens football if parents think their kids will be safer now
I think you need to watch some long versions of the vid and read around the topic before futher winding people up and making more of a fool of yourself, Daffy.
Heck, Zidane went on to win the Golden Boot, be a national hero of France and be a football manager after publicly headbutting someone in the chest – it wasn’t his first time either.
Not even a little bit comparable, two males, no sexual assault element. A better comparison would be Chirac kissing Barthes on the head, but again two males and not on the lips.
I'm really enjoying the scandal, revelling in the males showing what complete machist, manipulating arses they are and being told NO, STOP. I was delighted when Spain won and the level of outrage is great for Spanish women. I've worked in Spain and I'm a regular visitor, the attitudes to women made me uncomfortable and I'm male.
I watched the news whenever we were in a hotel on a recent trip to Spain and aware that domestic violence and the killing of women is a major issue that the country is dealing with. In that context this sexual assault in front of millions around the world was a provocation too far. The arse deserves all he gets and more, and the more macho, misogynist, sexists that go down with him the better.
The whole governing body appears to be unhinged and have no grasp on reality. When all the women players said they would be unavailable for the national team until this was resolved correctly, it claimed that they had an 'obligation' to play, as if they were some kind of indentured slaves!
Hopefully the players will be able to look back on this episode one day with some satisfaction, because it played a part in helping bring Spanish football out of its sexist stone age.
Has anyone from the men's team piped up yet?