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[url= http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-the-dodgy-dossier-of-independence-1-3954521 ]http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-the-dodgy-dossier-of-independence-1-3954521[/url]
It was a fairly busy news week last week so the above may have been missed. Should be of interest to some on here. There are some interesting quotes there, as well as the title there's this:
“The idea that you could have a Scotland with high public spending, low taxes, a stable economy and a reasonable government debt was wishful a year ago – now it is deluded.”
and this:
“the SNP’s (economic) case – UK levels of spending, no tax increases, relatively high government borrowing but a stable economy – was more possible within the Union than without. With declining oil revenues and a long period of low growth, that is more true now than in the last couple of decades”
I'll go for - 35 pages, an unrelated argument somewhere around page 12, and graphs from about page 4.
#itwasafix
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CFH - With you on that, and at least 2 banhammers
...and at least 2 banhammers
Ban-Malleus Scotorum?
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Where is the like button?
it was heavily flawed when proposed - its only gotten exponentially worse....
Has anyone compared the SNP to IS? Because they're exactly the same, you know
Not really news
oh yes, Brian Wilson - ex West Highland Free Press, now consultant to the big corporations, that B W?
Brian Wilson and the truth. Very rarely seen in the same place, weird, eh?.
Good grief!
The real story is that there is actually someone in Scotland who reads The Scotsman. The paper that committed suicide by BS.
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or
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What's interesting is the way the opinion of one person - not even an economist - is leaped on so enthusiastically by unionists.
Doesn't bother me. Saying that the SNP's finances don't add up so an independent Scotland is a bad idea is like saying since Osborne's sums don't add up* then an independent UK is a bad idea.
If Scotland becomes independent, and the SNP do a bad job of managing the economy, we'll elect someone who can do it better. Just like they do in other countries.
The only way this kind of argument works against an independent Scotland is if you think Scotland is "too wee, too poor, too stupid" to manage whoever is in charge.
*And they don't, he's an economic moron.
Scotland could be an independent country, there is no outcome to that situation where we end up with the same amount of services that we have now however.
The argument for independence is based around an obsession with an arbitrary line on a map and a misguided assumption that all change is good change.
I hate Nats. They're either thick, romantics, racists or all three.
I hate Nats. They're either thick, romantics, racists or all three.
I like you. You're funny.
[quote=bencooper ]Saying that the SNP's finances don't add up so an independent Scotland is a bad idea is like saying since Osborne's sums don't add up* then an independent UK is a bad idea.
If Scotland becomes independent, and the SNP do a bad job of managing the economy, we'll elect someone who can do it better. Just like they do in other countries.
I'm not going to comment on whether the argument is right or wrong - I have no idea - but that response to it is fallacious. The UK is already independent, has been for a long time, and there is no prospect of a vote for it to stop being independent*. Scottish independence was/is** being sold to people with the economy featured quite prominently. If the figures being suggested for post-independence regarding taxation, public spending, deficit and the economy in general are a fairy tale, then people were/are voting on the basis of a lie. It's not a question of whether some other party can do better it's a question of whether it's economically possible.
Note I'm still not commenting on whether it is economically possible or not, simply pointing out that you can't dismiss such objections so lightly because "we'll fix it later".
* well I suppose we're due a vote on whether to be more independent
** I'm not expecting another vote any time soon, but some people are clearly pushing for twice in a generation
[quote=bencooper ]I like you. You're funny.
Which one are you, ben 😉
The question we all need to be asking here is what [i]is[/i] Scotland?
Might be worth reading the Quintilian Dalrymple series by Paul Johnston for the likely outcome....
No, really 😀
I voted yes for independence, but looking at things now I'd do things differently...
The entire basis of the SNP economic argument revolved around North Sea oil revenue. That was at a time when the oil price was still high. The unionists arguments claimed that "yes, oil revenue is good, but you'll run out of it in medium term future".
Now the oil price has slumped, and many believe it will continue to do so for many years to come. On top of this, reserves are dwindling, so even if prices rebound, it'll only be a temporary fix. So oil pretty much needs to be removed completely from any economic case.
And on that basis, high public spending, low taxes, and a stable economy are a pipe-dream. Throw in the collapse of ship-building due to reduced UK orders...
bencooper - MemberWhat's interesting is the way the opinion of one person - not even an economist - is leaped on so enthusiastically by unionists.
Yes, enthusiastically leaped on.
And than sat on I'm sure just as enthusiastically for three days before one person posts a link to it on here.
Fortunately, you always use the word "interesting" before posting something either totally delusional or something that you obviously don't believe yourself, but will repeat if you think it will help your cause.
The vote was to remain united.
Dry yer eyes!
😀
@obelix many of us argued that the Independence campaigns projections where highly flawed not least as oil was at an historical high and it was in fact quite likely the price would fall
I see the SNP are embroiled in a financial scandal as one their MPs has been reported to the police for allegedly misappropriating donations. Very "establishment" eh ?
We want a chart before page 4
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I voted for independence, not 'cos we might be better off, but to be independent.
We want a chart before page 4
Totally inaccurate. A tissue of lies, fabrication and spin.
Ideal. Well done.
quick someone google some made up plentiful oil resource story links before page 2
Which one are you, ben
Definitely romantic. There's no-one more romantic than a Glaswegian male. We're famous for it 😀
but to be independent.
Of what? Westminster? EU? NATO? GCHQ? USA?FIFA?
Reality is Scotland is such a small player that independence is nothing of the sorts really, just a slightly change in the relationships.
An independent Scotland wouldn't be all that small, really - average-sized as countries go.
b r - Member
I voted for independence, not 'cos we might be better off, but to be independent.
Independent of what or whom? Financial independence is easy to explain, hence why it was used so much during the referendum, what does national/political independence Give YOU or any Scotsman? The ability to make your own laws? But Scotland are committed to staying in the Euro, so that'll be governed by Brussels. Genuine question.
Independent of Westminster. If Westminster could be totally reformed - a federal system of government with PR voting - I'd lose all interest in Scottish independence. But I don't believe that can possibly happen, and I think Westminster is so totally broken that the only option is for Scotland to go it alone, despite the risks.
Financial independence is easy to explain
Not really.
I accept that there were and are flaws in the economic argument for independence particularly the currency.I would have preferred to go for a completely separate currency. I notice however that there seems to be a discrepancy between the economic security bettertogether promised last year and what is happening now. How secure are those shipyard jobs looking now that there will be 8frigates not 13.
Genuine question.
And one that [i]may[/i] have been asked before, possibly.
Just stop it.
Now.
Please.
So does it now look like the SNP's economic policy wasn't that viable afterall? Well I never...
How secure are those shipyard jobs looking now that there will be 8frigates not 13.
More secure than than the SNP plans for the Scottish navy would have made them
More secure than than the SNP plans for the Scottish navy would have made them
That's not really the point, though, is it? The point is we were told the shipyard jobs were safe with a No vote. We were told the steel jobs were safe with a No vote. The HMRC jobs were safe with a No vote.
The things we were told would go wrong with a Yes vote are going wrong anyway, the difference is we can't do anything about it.
Independent of Westminster. If Westminster could be totally reformed - a federal system of government with PR voting - I'd lose all interest in Scottish independence. But I don't believe that can possibly happen, and I think Westminster is so totally broken that the only option is for Scotland to go it alone, despite the risks.
PR wouldn't help the SNP...at all. Perhaps if the Scots stopped being so bloody provincial and tried to affect change ALL over the UK, say by forming a party which helps promote the values that seem to be cherished by them, something might get done. Tearing something apart in a desperate attempt keep small parts of it alive has never, ever worked.
Egypt, Rome, China, Palestine, Korea, Vietnam; In the immortal words of George Santayana.
PR wouldn't help the SNP...at all.
Fine with me, I'm not a SNP member.
Perhaps if the Scots stopped being so bloody provincial and tried to affect change ALL over the UK, say by forming a party which helps promote the values that seem to be cherished by them, something might get done.
Like, um, the SNP? How's our efforts to effect change across the UK going so far? Not all that well, as we're outnumbered by the Tories and a Labour party who can't decide if they're tearing themselves apart or abstaining on everything.
@big n daft And the jobs lost in the renewable energy industry? HMRC? The round of cuts approaching in council services, and social care looks pretty grim too? (and I mean the cuts already in the pipeline not ones to come in the autumn statement)
As for the question what is Scotland? I've been asking myself that for some time now
That's not really the point, though, is it? The point is we were told the shipyard jobs were safe with a No vote. We were told the steel jobs were safe with a No
But Trade union GMB Scotland welcomed the prime minister's announcement, stating that it would secure employment.
Jim Moohan, the union's senior organiser and chair of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions said: "Once again this is great news for Clydeside, which has been rewarded for its continuing quality of work produced by the skills and experience heavily invested in by BAE Systems.
"Instead of the peaks and troughs which caused redundancies in the past, we now have continuity.
"This should be welcomed and not used for political mischief by those who have no knowledge in this area of industry and whose vision going forward was a dated Type 42 Destroyer to be the sole protection for Scottish waters in the event that the referendum question had answered Yes."
bencooper - Member
Like, um, the SNP? How's our efforts to effect change across the UK going so far?
Who have campaigned solely on the idea of an Independent Scotland, they have absolutely NO intention of attempting change in the UK, just division of it. What is needed is a UK party, not a Scottish National Party, which will take those ideals (which no one seems to be able to define) and offer them to a wider audience. Have the SNP done ANY of that? Anything at all?
Did Nicola Sturgeon help the hundreds of Scottish Steelworkers? She has the power, she has the budgetary controls...nothing, not even a measure to help local business.
RE Steelworkers and job losses, remember that THOUSANDS of english steelworkers also lost their jobs when hundreds of Scots did. Why did this happen? A Chinese economy that's shrinking, a European law which prevents the government from acting (this wouldn't change if Scotland were independent, as the SNP have vehemently stated that they'd be staying in the Euro) and high UK wages driven by a growing economy...