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Principled politics are useless if you aren't at the table.
You don't have to be in a formal coalition to bring your principles to the table.
So if the Lib Dems had refused, what were the options? Sometimes compromise is vital.
Arguably they could have achieved more by putting the Conservatives in as a minority government. OK they wouldn't have got a referendum on electoral reform, but that's already been watered down to AV and not PR. They also wouldn't have had to back pedal quite so hard on University.
TooTall
good links and interestin reading but one included this quote
Since then, what has fascinated me most is the constant shifts in America's dynastic politics, with new families emerging and older ones leaving the field of combat. For instance, I didn't include the Bush family in my first book because, well, there was no Bush dynasty in 1966 -- just one former backbench senator from Connecticut. But what happened to the Stocktons, Tuckers, Lees and Livingstons?
also the top 5 dont hold office at the moment either so it exists but it is far more fluid that an aristocracy as this requires marriage to join rather than talent.
I feel that the Lib Dems are still good folk but they've been put in a no-win situation by circumstances and the Tories, which is a shame.
Interesting never thought of it like that and you do have a point but you cannot really abandon principles/pledges and still think you will have electoral appeal. It is hard to respect someone who stands on a platform then [largely] ignores it whilst forming the govt whatever the hue of the people doing this.
A vote for the lib dems is like a roll of the roulette wheel IMHO
j_me - MemberLib Dems have sold out and swapped principled politics for a self indulgent moment in power.
Yup. Sold out for ministerial cars
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molgrips - MemberSo if the Lib Dems had refused, what were the options? Sometimes compromise is vital.
Posted 2 hours ago # Report-Post
As j_me says - agree a queens speech for a minority government to ensure we get a government in place but not enter a formal coalition. The bargaining chip would still be a referendum on AV and the lib dems then decide on a case by case basis on anything not in that original queens speech. This is what happened at Holyrood.
You don't get the ministerial cars and the empty titles ( can yo heare me Clegggy) but you do retain your integrity and you can still act as a moderating influence.
As it is Clegg has ended the Lib Dems - they are going to be virtually wiped out as s result as they have so clearly abandoned their principles. The vast majority of their voters are left leaning and especially in the last election a lot of people who could no longer "hold their nose and vote labour" voted for them only to see a tory governemnt.
Teh tories are now openly contemptuous of them. Their only hope for electoral survival is to bring own the government
Can they leave the coalition officially? They can can't they? It's not really official, so they can all decide to vote against the Govt if they want..?
EDIT: And, if Lib Dem loses support, where will that support end up? I seem to remember they got a lot of Labour defectors last time.
If they do they will be accused of being untrustworthy. Its their best chance tho - there will be some issue that thay cannot reconcile their position with the tory right nd once the referendum is lost they haeve no reason to stay
Teh support will end up with labour and the greens mainly - maybe nationalists in Scotland and wales
So it's game on the next election then? Or will the Tories be kicked out due to the 'blame everything on the incumbent' factor?
[i]You don't get the ministerial cars and the empty titles ( can yo heare me Clegggy) but you do retain your integrity and you can still act as a moderating influence.[/i]
Not really, it's just not as black and white as that. If a minority govt. had been formed then the lib dems could easily have been accused of using their position to obtain what they wanted. In effect, they could quite easily be seen to be blackmailing the govt. to pursue their own policies. And then they would have looked just as opportunistic, if not more and people would be decrying them for holding the country to ransom.
Because of the way the coalition has turned out people are now condemning the lib dems but it wasn't so clear cut at the time (hindsight is a wonderful thing).
Basically they were between a rock and hard place. I don't think they sold out at the beginning, at least not the majority of lib dems in the coalition. I think given the choice they would have gone for a lib/lab coalition but they felt the country would not accept that (+ Brown's intransigence).
So they did the next best thing. A minority govt. is prone to instability and i think that played a part in their reasoning as well. Just to be clear though, i don't think they are saints, i suspect the opportunity of govt. power helped [b]some of them[/b] make the choice. And at the time, i think a lot of people were prepared to give them a chance. And i think they honestly believed they could affect things a lot more than they actually have.
But it hasn't worked out that way. Their influence is minimal and if they remain in this coalition until the end they will be all but indistinguishable from the Conservatives. And although Clegg and a few others seem to be able to accept this i'm not sure the majority will. IMO i don't think this coalition will last it's full term because either -
1) the economy will recover and the Conservatives will take the credit, force the coalition to splinter and then go to the country to try and gain a majority govt.
2) the lib dems will no longer be able to participate in what is proving to be an increasingly right wing agenda
Either way i think Clegg is finished.
Personally i hope 2) happens above and we end up with Labour or a coalition including Labour. I suspect that the majority of lib dems would be much happier with that.
manc john - I was shouting for minority government from the beginning - it works in Scotland with the SNP minority government. Bills are passed on their merits not because of being whipped thru.
I think Clegg was dazzled by the chance of power and showed his naivety.
Its allwater under the bridge but has damaged the country and ended the Lib Dems as a party. It will be very interesting to see the backlash after Thursday - they are going to end up loosing massive numbers of seats - maybe ending up in 5th place in Scotland
TJ
I agree, I think naivety is the right word and i also think Clegg is the main culprit here. I suspect the only way the lib dems could come back from this is to get rid of Clegg and leave the coalition but even this would not save them in the short term.
They are in for a mauling which for a lot of dedicated lib democrats at the local level as well as a fair few at the national level is actually quite sad.
But it hasn't worked out that way. Their influence is minimal and if they remain in this coalition until the end they will be all but indistinguishable from the Conservatives. And although Clegg and a few others seem to be able to accept this I'm not sure the majority will. IMO I don't think this coalition will last its full term because either -
1) the economy will recover and the Conservatives will take the credit, force the coalition to splinter and then go to the country to try and gain a majority govt.
2) the lib dems will no longer be able to participate in what is proving to be an increasingly right wing agenda
Either way I think Clegg is finished.
I suspect the AV vote will be rejected – people generally are just not interested, and in the absence of any real advantages AV offers (being ‘a bit less rubbish’ than FPTP doesn’t really cut it), people won’t go for it. At which point the LibDems have to really ask themselves what they want out of this ‘coalition’…..if they carry on in it they stand a very good chance of being wiped out at the next election, returning to the kind of core vote of 15% or so they used to get in the 70s and 80s.
After all, why would you vote LibDem if you’re really going to get Conservative?
Basically they were between a rock and hard place.
Agreed, as I said at the time. I think a lot of Lib Debs are very annoyed with the way things are turning out...
lib dems are down to 6 or 7% in the hollyrood elections - 8 years ago they were in third place with 18 seats (ish) looks like they will be down to 6 or less now. And that is under a system that is proportional (if not perfect)
Trouble is, even now they are stuck. If they pulled out of the coalition that would be because they no longer supported the govt agenda. And to distinguish themselves from what has gone before they would be less likely to support the govt.
This is quite a different position from the one they would have been in if they had never joined the coalition in the first place. So there would be a good chance of a vote of no confidence at some stage which could lead to another general election and then they truly would suffer considering the feelings towards them at the moment.
They really are in a no win situation. I can feel a Lib/SDP type split coming on 🙂
Agreed, as I said at the time. I think a lot of Lib Debs are very annoyed with the way things are turning out...
And Milliband is rubbing his hands with glee....he'll pick up all the wavering voters if they realise that a LibDem vote is essentially wasted. And that'll be the end of Cameron.
Only problem with the above scenario is that Milliband is the dullest and least charismatic politician I've ever seen. I'd vote for him on the basis that he's not Cameron but that's not really enough for the general electorate.
nickf
Good point but who would you have chosen from Labour. There does seem to be a dearth of good candidates to choose from. I preferred Ed over his brother, (although i'm seriously thinking i might well have got that wrong) but i can't say i really thought any of the main candidates were that appealing.