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Garmin's Z2 pace is definitely "shuffling along like a granny". It's roughly 3min/km slower than my 10km pace and about as slow as I can possibly run.
I'll try using the MAFs method for a bit, and do a max HR or LTHR test when I'm not full of this winter cold.
You could also try intervals.icu it's free (with a request to subscribe) and gives lots of analysis - certainly more than I understand - but will also feedback LTHR results based on your ongoing performance. I just like it because it gives a fairly simple fitness/fatigue graph that I can understand! It feeds off your Garmin and/or Strava data.
3 mins slower than 10k pace sounds extremely slow to me. My steady runs are about 1 min/km or so slower than race pace on the flat, though this comes out more like 1:30 overall due to hills.
Using someone's algorithm for zones makes about as much sense as using 220-age for your max. It may be reasonably close for the majority and if you have literally nothing else to go on then it's a useful starting point, but it can easily be significantly wrong, so modify according to your own experience.
@davros it's always going to be tricky getting a diagnosis for anything over the internet so my advice would to see if you can see a local physiotherapist or sports therapist that are familiar with running injuries.
I'm still on the very slow path to mending from a knee injury, also pain on the outside, mine was diagnosed as iliotibial band friction, but that's not to say yours is, could be tendonitis, or something to do with your gait or your shoes plus many other things.
@davros - if you're in Sheff then try Charlie Stone at Fit4 physio at Hallamshire tennis club. She's a runner herself and husband is a Dark Peak runner and recently did a tidy Bob Graham round. She's been keeping me going for ages and has a pragmatic approach to running with injuries. ps. Outside knee pain - my money is on IT band...
ive just started trail running a couple of weeks ago. For two reasons - 1. The ground is depressingly wet, so biking is a bit shite. And 2. I’ve been watching Jeff Pelletier run ultras on YouTube and got inspired.
I tend to run about 4-5k, about 3 times a week. I’ve done max of 8k, and ran 6k today. Probably 200-300m of climbing each time. I go really, really slow. My aim is to try to figure out if I can run 10k and have enough left in the tank, so that perhaps I can figure out if a trail half-marathon would be realistically possible. In my heart, I’d love to complete an alpine marathon, like the Chamonix one (although I probably couldn’t gain an entry anyway). But I think that’s somewhere way in the distance for now. No idea if that would be realistic, or just a pipedream.
No idea if that would be realistic, or just a pipedream.
No reason not to believe you can do it. I only really started running a few years ago and, even then, just played at it a bit. It was only this year that I really took it seriously and that's because there was one event I wanted to do. In some ways I wish I'd started much earlier in life. Getting serious about it in your 60's means it's hard work developing. However, I guess I don't have decades of physical "punishment" behind me so maybe it's not all bad.
My other half has been running much more then me recently, my running has been cut back due to cycle commuting. She's been doing obstacle course running events like tough mudder and nuclear races. Today she did the grim challenge in Aldershot. 8 miles with lots of icey "puddles" that were close to her middle (half way up thighs to be exact). Think I'll just stick to my semi regular 3-4 mile tame cross country runs.
I’ve been watching Jeff Pelletier run ultras on YouTube and got inspired.
I met Jeff in 2011, before he had a YouTube channel and possibly before he ran his first marathon. He is a super cheerful and helpful bloke, and helped get me into running at the time. I did the Vancouver marathon in 2012 after training with him all winter. He’s a big deal on YouTube now (although it helps that video marketing is his day job!) and did a decent Bob Graham this summer as well.
On the subject of inspiration I watched the Spine documentary on Amazon prime the other week, which has made me think about how to get an 80+ miler done, which would allow me to enter….
FYI I had my first run in studded shoes this week - the Hoka Speedgoats with tungsten(?) studs. I don't know how fequently I'll need them but they made a massive difference to how I was able to run across icy puddles etc.
Im looking to replace my Hoka Rocket X road shoes. Whats an equivalent? I quite like the Rocket X but believe there is better out there. Thanks
Quick PSA before I do my returns. I've got some running kit from the Wiggle mega sale that I'll offer here for what I paid for it:
DHB Aeron FLT run short XL £5
DHB Run Tech Tights 2.0 XXL £10
DHB Aeron FLT Windproof Jacket XL £15
I've also got some bits from an Asics clearance sale:
Ventilate Sleeveless top - black Large £5
Vest - black Large £5 (no tags but is brand new)
Running tights - black Large £10
Drop me a message if any is of interest.
I watched the Jeff Pelletier when he was up in Keswick and tried fell racing and then BGR. Nice chap!
I appreciate it was partly sponsored content but his approach to nutrition on the BGR was super impressive. And he did pretty well too considering he was on holiday (went sightseeing in London the next day IIRC)
@edward2000, there’s a Rocket X 2, but it’s a completely different shoe. Very much a racer where I found the first version to be best as a fast trainer.
If it’s a fast trainer you want then look at the Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 or Puma Deviate Nitro 2.
If it’s a race shoe, the Rocket X 2 gets great reviews, or look at the Nike Vaporfly 2 or adidas Adios Pro 3.
I've just started, never been a runner before, tried a few times in my teens and early 20s but hated it and it hurt. My aim is to do a 5k, then a 10k and eventually a half marathon. Looked at the numerous beginners options, couch to 5k, None2Run etc in the end I decided I don't really wanna be carrying anything other than my keys, watch and maybe some poobags when bringing the dog with me so opted for the Garmin Coach 5k.
Reason I've decided to get into it is it seems to be very easy to fit in and accessible especially during the winter, than it is getting out on the bike, the whole getting the bike out of the shed and unlocked, checking pressures, filling the bottle up, lubing the chain and getting all my clobber on just to get shy of an hour in during my lunch break, then having to hose the bike off and put it away and lock it up again has been a faff.
Plus, I want to ne be able to run! I see people doing the park runs, out on the hills or trails and everyone just seems super happy and buzzing to be out, a few experiences riding lately bumping into and chatting to others has made me feel like biking is becoming a bit cliquey near me, that and all the judgey teens have made be feel a bit uncomfortable riding when it's busy up my local, the vibe seems to be very judgey and competitive, very different lately to what it was and is the opposite of what I appear to see from the outside-in from the running community.
So 3 birds one stone, get a bit of winter excercise in during a lunch break, excercise the dog and give myself a goal to hit which will help me get fitter.
Had my first one today after a benchmark run at the weekend which I found tough but today was 15 minutes, 4 minutes walking 1 minute jogging x2 followed by a 5 min cooldown, was still halfway from home and had energy in the bank so decided to do 1 min jogging 2 mins walking on the way back home, surprised how much I enjoyed myself actually. Took a route that was mostly off road as well which felt easier on the joints. Looking forward to the next one already and already been researching the local park run and running groups hopefully it's something I can stick with long term and will help me shift weight and make biking more enjoyable/easier as a result of my legs having to haul less weight up the hills. Then when summer rolls around go back to my early morning or late evening rides up the local when all the youngsters haven't crawled out of bed yet or have already gone home for tea, which is when I bump into the familiar faces I know who are supportive and give advice even if you case a jump instead of laughing! Maybe I've just got a hurt ego lol!
Good on you. Agree with you about running v cycling in the winter, that’s pretty much why I switched too.
Keeping it enjoyable is key, you’ll probably not keep it up for long if it becomes a chore. A lot of people find a local parkrun to be a good part of the weekly routine.
Great Caey Neistat run vid
A bit like scotroutes above I've entered my first Ultra (Kintyre 50 k) at the fairly ridiculous age of 67. My longest run up to the beginning of this was a forestry track 21 km slow amble a couple of years ago. I'd never been a runner until recently but I can now do (for my age) reasonable 5 and 10k times.
I've been building mileage up slowly and my longest run is now up to 35 km (slowly) with 10 weeks to go.
The problem I'm hitting is that the long slow runs wipe me out and l struggle to recover to do more later in the week. I totalled 7 hours on feet and 58 km with 1000m of climbing last week. I think that was bit much at this stage and I've got an easier week planned for this week. Yesterday's hilly 17 km left me thinking that I was just not making much progress at all. I could really do with a week being two days longer 😉
I try to do some gentle biking between the runs partly as recovery and as a bit of cross training but my legs are too tired to do much.
I'm still playing with eating and drinking strategy which has always been a weak point with biking and now with running.
So, keep on pushing and just accept that between now and May I'm going to feel constantly knackered but hope I'm getting stronger, or do I ease off and give myself more recovery time and hope I can do the distance on the day? I have no aspirations on speed, just want to finish.
I'm out this season. Combination of colds, covid, niggly knee meant I've missed far too much training time to have a serious go at Mancs marathon and I can't be bothered jogging round at the back for the sake of a medal and t-shirt having raced it hard several 5 or 6 times already.
Knee is slightly unhappy even with easy 5k jogs so I'll be on the bike much more than usual this spring. May be no bad thing in the long run, I'm old enough that it's probably sensible to limit my mileage. Feels like a slight bruise on the joint, it's very minor really but been dragging on for around good 6-8 weeks now.
No advice on ultras, sorry. Marathon has always been my limit, plenty far enough for me! I've always kept my long runs under 3h (if only just) which still takes some recovery but it doesn't destroy me.
I'm no expert, but a 35km training run seems very long, especially 10 weeks out. Based on what I've read, I'd suggest concentrating on more consistent mileage with a few shorter easy runs through the week and the long run being around the 20km mark.
I've based my training plan on those on the inov8 blog, tailored to fit my requirements.
I too am out for the season - currently considering whether its even worth renewing my running club subs or just switch to a 'social member' only.
I have a knee injury that I'm fairly certain is a re-emergence of a torn meniscus from an MTB crash about 12 years ago. It was lying dormant since then but an epic fell route in the lakes has reawoken it. Just waiting for an MRI scan
sigh
I'm similar to thecaptain - don't want to merely enter a races for the 'day out' or to make up the numbers. I need to feel competitive (even if its just in my own head) which means a hard bloc of training etc
I quite frequently do 35+km training runs, you certainly can do them regularly if you've trained up to it. That said, I don't think that's the case here. So I'd probably throttle back, and keep them under 30k. And if you can do that, you can certainly make it round the ultra in 10 weeks time.
The problem I’m hitting is that the long slow runs wipe me out and l struggle to recover to do more later in the week.
Make sure you're getting enough to eat both during and after the run. Don't make the typical mistake of trying to combine training and weightloss - you need enough fuel to build the muscles and recover after.
Thanks, sounds like good advice. Not trying to lose weight, I’ve not got that much to spare, but probably not eating enough during runs. I have added a bit of extra protein to my diet before and after runs though.
I’ll knock back the long runs a bit at least for now and I’ll have a peek at the inov8 blog.
I’ve just signed up for a local road 10k in June and the Oxford Half in October.
The aim is a 45 minute 10k and a 1:45 Half. The 10k time is somewhat optimistic given my current PB is 51 something.
These are both on the road but I normally do nearly all my running on trails so I need some road shoes.
Looking ahead towards the races, are things like the Vapourfly or Alphafly worth the money? I figure that if they are I’ll keep an eye out and pick some up in the run up to the races and use for a few training sessions to get used to them.
I tend to run on my forefoot if that makes any difference.
Wonder if anyone can help. I've been suffering with some kind of knee problem since Christmas. Before this I was a regular 5/10k every few days without problem. I started to get some knee pain around the outside of my knee and what felt like deep in knee at the bottom front. Initially I didn't pay it much attention as the pain was just an initial ache.
Then during one run the pain got so bad I couldn't finish and had to hobble home. For several days I was struggling with stairs and weight bearing. Then eventually it eased. I gave it a couple of weeks. Tried to go out for a short 2-3k very slow pace run, and the pain came back after around 1k. Hobbled home again.
I've been having physio the past couple of weeks, but it doesn't really seem to be going anywhere. The physio says it's something to do with tight quads and weak glutes. Which is fine, but the pain came on quite quickly even after a couple of years of running.
I just managed a 1k walk/run - I could feel the pain starting to creep in, and resorted to walking. But as soon as I start to jog it starts to build back up. Oddly cycling has no impact - did 15 miles round trip to the physio on the bike yesterday and it was absolutely fine.
Anyone else experienced anything similar or has any additional advice?
@prezet, has your physio given you any exercises. I had a similar problem and found lots of slow knee drops on the stairs helped. So stand on your bad leg side-on on the stairs with the good leg hanging over the edge. Slowly drop down until the good leg touches the step below. Repeat. Start holding weight if it feels OK after 15 or so reps.
Turned into a bit of an occasional runner as done more riding over the winter than usual. Went for a plod this evening and shoes are feeling pretty worn - Saucony Endorphin speed 3. Can’t see any on sale in my size (46) and can’t stomach £180 for the 4’s. Any similar alternatives?
@dander, Endo Speed's are a relatively light fast trainer, so similar would be:
Puma Deviate Nitro 2 - Lovely shoes but the fit is on the snug side. Very similar in use case to the Speed 3's though.
adidas Boston 12 - Similar cushion to the Speed 3 and a much better outsole.
ASICS Novablast - I think version 3 is closer to the Endo Speed as it's a bit more lively, you can find it on the ASICS outlet site. Version 4 is cracking shoe as well but lacks a bit of the excitement that V3 has.
Thanks lunge, will look them up. I like the snappier feel of a quick trainer, the Endorphins were a bit of a revelation to be honest, although I think I preferred the 2s to the 3s.
@dander, go for one of the top 2 in that case.
I love my Puma's for that bit of speed and bounce, the only negative is they are a snug fit.
Your other option is to see if you can find a 2nd hand pair on Vinted or eBay.
Just wanted to throw a quick thank you to @lunge who very kindly sorted me a pair of his old trainers for a fiver last year when I started dabbling in parkruns and some running. Since then I've done numerous parkruns, a 10k, a half marathon, and as of yesterday my first marathon in Manchester. Managed it in 4:04, really wanted to go sub 4, but had a rotten cold all week and heart rate flew up to 175 right out the gate and I couldn't hold my desired pace after mile 20.
Slept terribly and really struggling to walk, but already looking for another marathon to get sub 4!
Thanks again Lunge, you've caused no end of pain for me by sorting me those Nikes!
@chunkleton, that's bloody brilliant, love how a spare pair of Nikes has lead you on that path. 4:04 on a debut marathon is a great efforts, you should be really pleased with that.
Just be careful of this marathon running nonsense, it gets slightly addictive...
On the very other end of the scale from Chunkleton (well done) – after 2 years out with an injury, I managed a 1.5 mile run on Saturday with no ill-effects (other than muscle pain). When the thighs have settled a bit I am back out again, with the plan to increase up to my pre-injury distances/times over the next few months.
My knee is still just very slightly niggly, nothing remotely serious in everyday life but when I go for a gentle run I can feel a slight ache at the side of the joint. Been going on for a full 3 months so far, hopefully it will ease over the summer, but I'm wondering about cutting out the serious stuff for a year or two. I know a few ex-marathon runners who piled on the miles and eventually wore themselves out in various ways. 11 marathons in the last 11 years is a lot more than I ever set out to do at the start!
I can feel a slight ache at the side of the joint
Inner or outer? if outer and it has been around for a while it could be ITBS. It effectively ended my running "career" in that I was competitive (early 40's) then sidelined for 11 months and never really got back to fitness. That was just me though and I know lots of people who have it and it clears up quite quickly the point being it may be worth investigating and if so there are exercises and treatments that will hopefully help.
it gets slightly addictive
🙂 not for me. 1 was enough....
Saucony Endorphin speed 3. Can’t see any on sale in my size (46) and can’t stomach £180 for the 4’s. Any similar alternatives?
I really like these as well. The triumph are a good alternative but they are at full price at the moment from what I can see. The Endorphin trail are a good shout, so much so I bought a pair at the reduced price them immediately bought another. Similar in style but obvs a trail shoes as oppose to road. I do a lot of paths/fields/mud so love them but not really a full on road shoe.
Well done lunge!
I watched the marathon, a bit of it while doing a gentle jog on the treadmill. Might have to give it a go some time, unless I get too old and knackered first. Maybe a 60th birthday present to myself?
Well done @lunge and @mogrim - great running.
I managed to drop on @turboferret at the finish line yesterday after another of his stunning runs, and still looked fresh!
London really is a pleasure to participate in, although like @lunge, I know about it today!
Great work all round.
Well done all. @lunge did you beat Giles Brandreth's time - he has the record for the fastest sitting or retired MP, and it was a lot faster than one would have guessed! I don't run anywhere, although Sister2 did the South Devon challenge from Brixham to Shaldon this weekend (she's mad though, five marathon plus runs already this year on no training!).
Matthew Parris 2:32 ish?
You'd think seb coe would have had a good chance of beating that if he'd wanted.
You’d think seb coe would have had a good chance of beating that if he’d wanted.
Not a sitting MP I think the time needs to be done when you are sitting. 2:30 is pretty good and takes some serious training.
Well done everyone that did Manchester and London. Some impressive times being mentioned!
Back to what this thread is really about.... trainers.
I did a gait analysis years ago and got recommended Saucony Jazz. These have since been discontinued.
I bought Hoka Cliftons on the recommendation of them being highly rated for heavier runners (I'm 105kg). They're a bit narrow in the mid foot (suffered blisters on inside of arch for first 100km or so). The shop I got them from don't stock the wide version so I didn't know they were an option at the time.
I'm happy to go to a shop and try some but knowing they're only likely to recommend what they stock, it would be good to have an idea of some options to try and find somewhere I can compare.
Current goal is to beat some old PBs - aiminng for sub 21 min 5km and sub 44 min 10km, so ideally a fast everyday trainer rather than needing an out and out race shoe at this time.