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I think turboferrets version of a slow run is probably very different to the majority of the rest of us 😉
@jam-bo not necessarily, my slow pace is about 8-9 minute miles. I used to average about 7 minute miles for everything through a week, but it's now much slower and I've got quicker!
I think turboferrets version of a slow run is probably very different to the majority of the rest of us
my slow pace is about 8-9 minute miles.
Yep 🙂
Bear in mind that the majority of the terrain around my way is pretty flat and well-groomed, I would be running slower in the hills and on rugged surfaces
I work in Parkruns as I'm belligerently avoiding recording data on my training runs.
Using an online calculator I see that 8min miles = 25min Parkrun. That's definitely within my easy running zone and how I run pretty well all the time. After 15 years of bike racing I know the power of easy!
@pieface. I ran through the tail end of my covid but only when I was sure I felt absolutely fine and was feeling no effects of covid. Alone of course.
My slowish pace is similar to Turboferret even though I am much older (57) and my faster days were many years ago. I mention that as I obviously can't race as fast but I still find around 9 min pace quite slow (more accurately I seem to be around 8:45-9:15 when I don't pay attention and check my run later) I also used to run much quicker and in the 80s many of us ran much quicker on our steady/easy runs. On reflection it was much to quick for me but suited the much faster runners in the group who could knock out mile after mile at 6 min pace in between hard sessions.
I wouldn't worry about how fast you are running easy runs at. More important that they are easy for you and not matching someone else's easy pace. Having said all that I am a bit ambivalent about doing much slow running. All running is tiring and potentially injurious. If you are tired I would suggest not running at all or cross training. Not convinced very slow running contributes to faster running. I accept it is enjoyable..
Chatting with a few people, I don't think this group will work for me. It's not got the flow I'm looking for.
Did the local parkrun today. It's been a while. It's a good event as there are always around 500 runners with the front group around 17-17.30min.
I started slowly as it was my first proper effort since beginning of June (effing covid!) chatting as I ran, then gradually ramped it up to a faster pace. Love how these things make you run harder than you'd choose to normally, taking you out of your comfort zone.
Was very enjoyable passing lots of people and I snuck in just under 20mins.
Really loving the journey into becoming a proper runner. I've been bike focused for so long that this feels fresh and new.
Not convinced very slow running contributes to faster running. I accept it is enjoyable..
It's been well established for decades that slow running builds the aerobic systems that generate the vast majority of your power at all speeds below the shortest sprints.
Not convinced very slow running contributes to faster running. I accept it is enjoyable..
Loads of research suggests it is.
Ideally training is polarised. So your easy sessions are very slow and easy meaning you’re recovered to be able to do your hard sessions properly.
It’s really easy to do “grey miles” which are to fast for recovery but not fast enough to get real benefit.
My race pace is under 7 minute miles (how much under depends on the distance) but a lot of my training runs are at 9’s.
It’s been well established for decades that slow running builds the aerobic systems that generate the vast majority of your power at all speeds below the shortest sprints.
Happy to see that evidence specifically. Gathering evidence in this field is challenging. We all respond differently and at different timescales and running tests over long periods can become unrepeatable. There is also an opportunity cost to these tests. I think we have introduced methods of training that are actually sub optimal. Optimal would almost certainly be boring and likely similar to what Zatopek ran in the 40/50's the popularity of jogging/running has watered down what training should look like and the introduction of the concept of LSD has made running more popular which is a good thing but even Lydiard claimed that his use of longer "slower" distance training was taken out of context.
I think its is more complex than just saying "slow" The concept is different for every runner and changes for each runner as they get fitter/less fit. I dont think many runners analyse their "slow" pace and adapt. If their is evidence then I assume not just any old "slow" will do.
Runners need to train at different speeds/efforts no doubt about that (see Horwills 5 pace system used particularly by Coe to great affect) and its important that runners train slower than their desired race pace but I see a lot of runners running at a pace that is really unlikely to stimulate much positive benefit.
I admit that I am guilty of this and my point about enjoying slow running is important. Absolutely nothing wrong with simply going for a run and obsessing about it making you a faster runner is not for everybody.
Google Stephen Seiler and fill your boots. He didn't invent the ideas (which I first learnt about some time prior to his work) but has done a lot to popularise and promote them.
And Dr Phill Maffetone surely? I was using his training principles whilst still riding, long before I started running.
They don't say the things that many people think they say. They make reference to "low intensity" etc which then is translated to "slow" researchers are far more specific than this and what they mean is that you do sometimes large volumes of mileage at a pace that is relative to your anaerobic threshold. This range is individual and pretty specific, also much more challenging than many runners think. I read of Ovett (who often ran around 100mpw) doing twice daily 10 mile runs some at around 50 mins. These are "low intensity" runs for him, a multiple WR holder but not possible for almost anyone else. Even he would not call those runs easy but they made up a large volume of his mileage.
Running at very low speeds in relation to your own anaerobic threshold is not adding much to your fitness (which is absolutely fine) but we shouldn't extrapolate from very structured research and claim this is what the data points to.
@lunge I agree with you and so does Matt Fitzgerald however even he uses the term "low intensity" the speed of the 80% is relative and the speeds you train at "sound" right to me but would you do your "easy" runs at 11 min miling? I wouldn't.
Anyway all just my thoughts.
surfer, if you want to pick at details then please be more specific. What pace is too slow (for, say, a 20 min parkrunner, or 25 min if you prefer) and what evidence do you have for this? I mean, I'm sure there's a point at which it's getting close to worthless but wonder if (and why) we differ substantively over where that is. I wouldn't deliberately force my pace down below where I can run with decent form and do agree that "steady" is a better term than "slow" but I just don't know where you see all these runners who you think are training too slowly....
I dont know what you mean "pick at details"?
In answer to your question I dont know. It depends on a lot of factors and I am not a coach but most people would benefit from a number of different sessions before they really need to worry about steady running. If you are able and only running 2 sessions a week (and assuming you want to get the most out of those 2 sessions) then probably both should be interval sessions in my opinion. I agree with the concept of 80/20 but its irrelevant if you are only training say 90 minutes a week. Those 2 sessions can be very hard and there is plenty of time to fully recover between each.
A keen athlete would want to do more so a 3rd session may be a more challenging road run at near threshold pace. A 4th session may be a longer lower intensity run, only then think about more steady runs after all there is no need to run steady recovery runs if there is nothing to recover from.
When packing more quality sessions in it makes more sense to do them over a 10 day cycle. The 7 day cycle is just convenient because people can meet for long Sunday runs etc. It makes more sense to spread over 10 to get the sessions in and adequate recovery. You may be doing many of your sessions alone though which is not very helpful.
Has anyone used SportsShoes? Just looking at buying some new trainers. Thanks
I've ordered stuff from SportsShoes in the past, never any issues, plenty of decent deals generally
Has anyone used SportsShoes?
Yes, all the time, they are great to deal with IME.
Has anyone used SportsShoes?
Yep, had a package arrive from them today (Hoka Rocket X as you asked). No issues at all.
Thanks all. I'll probably buy a new pair of Scott ultra RC unless someone can convince me I need to scratch a long term hoka/Altra/la sprtiva shaped itch.
It'd be for longish home to peak District terrain ie hardback, stony, grass and mud with tarmac either end.
Gone and entered my first ultra of 35 miles, The Round Ripon Ultra. 10 weeks time, been a bit lazy of late, hence the entry to get some focus, out the door shortly so it's worked!
Also in the “entered 1st ultra” club- lakes in a day for me. Anyone done it before?
I’m intending to recce at least the first 2/3rds of the route over August/ September, but any other tips would be welcome!
Always lots of SportsShoes discount codes around if you're a member of a club
Scott ultra RC
I know a lot of folk really like them, but I found the stack height too high and the grip level, for the aggressive looking sole, woeful. And they're lethal on wet rock. Terrifyingly so.
An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman..
Ran out 162 miles, 158 and 150 miles respectively to take 1st, 2nd & 3rd places at the final leg of the Home Nations Backyard Ultra at Blair Atholl castle this past weekend. 139 runners began the 'Highlander' event at 1200 on Saturday; the DNFs trickled through hour after hour, lap after lap until late on Sunday evening, when there were only these three left.
So now we have the odd situation that an Englishman is also a Highlander: There can be only one.
Andrew Jackson, Patrick Staunton & Richie Cunningham
The conditions were classic Highland; it poured with rain, almost all weekend. At least it wasn't cold. The team event went to Scotland, with home advantage in the conditions on the day. Ireland took the overall team crown and Wales the wooden spoon; or was that a spurtle..?.
Despite conditions, the atmosphere was superb all weekend, loads of support and on Sunday morning having the 26 remaiming runners at that stage cheered home at the end of their 100 mile lap by 1500 scouts, their pipe band & jamboree event support was a grand wee highlight. Happy days...
@alwillis I'm doing Lakes In A day this year. Did it last year, was an amazing day out. Although it rained for most of the day, the atmosphere was great. Friendliest event I've done.
Definitely worth some time recceing the first two legs. Cloud was really low and there were people all over the place after Clough Head, heading along to the Dodds.
Navigation was quite tricky in the later stages, once it was dark. Tiredness and looking for small yellow arrows. There was 20ish people all running around a field trying to find the gate to get out!
@mrsheen my default shoe for 90% of Lakes running (pretty similar to Peak District) is Inov-8 Trailfly 270. Fast, lightish, grippy and the only shoes that seem to last. I see them as the Maxxis Minion of trail shoes...
Sportshoes have the old model Terraultra 270 (only difference is name/colour) on Sale.
@mrsheen, for that kind of usage have a look at the Nike Pegasus Trail 4 (make sure it's V4 and not 2 or 3). They're a great allrounder and the outsole is much improved over last years model.
Heading out to Chamonix on the motorbike mid September. Looking at some running, shuffling, crawling for a few days:) Advice on how to find routes other than just following signs? Use other peoples Strava routes, guess I'd have to upgrade to a paid subscription, could I then uplaod to my Garmin? Help appreciated.
@cat69uk, you can indeed get suggested routes from Strava as a premium feature, but I believe you can do the same through Garmin Connect as well without paying.
Loads of routes, just click add to device. Sorted!!
Just got Saucony Xodus Ultra delivered, comfy round the house. Can't wait to test them out, Chamonix September and then Round Ripon Ultra start of October.
Snap! Ordered the Xodus Ultra yesterday, arriving tomorrow. Love new shoe day.
Replaced my Suunto Ambit with a Garmin 245 Music recently as I wanted some of the newer features my old Suunto didnt have. I have a pair of Sony over ear Walkman MP3 headphones which were fine and as nothing ever stays in my ear I have to have something that loops over. I bought a pair of cheap (£20) over ear ones from Amazon to pair with the watch and started using them to listen to Podcasts etc when training. Ignoring the initial fault (WIFI) that meant the watch had to be returned for a week to Garmin, It all now works really well. The most useful feature for me is the audible instructions for intervals and recovery (I often do my intervals in time not distance, say 2 min, 3 min 4min etc with a recovery period) so I find this feature a huge help when I do my sessions. Having information every mile also helps slow me down on easy runs as well. All in all a really useful training aid.
I have used Garmin since they brought out the first Forerunner in around 2006 and changed to Suunto a few years ago as the software was often buggy but really pleased with this model.
How does it compare convenience-wise to using a phone for podcasts? I've always done this, the phone updates the podcasts automatically and assembles into a playlist so I usually just switch on as I head out the door, though I can pick something specific if I feel like it.
Wouldn't want another monkey to feed with synching etc, also wonder about affecting battery life when using it for music on long runs.
has anyone here done the Bob Graham round? I've become a bit obsessed by it and see it as the ultimate challenge - but resigned to never having the fitness or wherewithal, particularly with my niggly injuries. But I'd love to give it a go, probably do each leg separately beforehand and then stitch it all together
The Rigby Round (Cairngorms) looks amazing too but even longer
if you've done either then max respect
I presume you're read Feet in the Clouds?
I'm sure at least one STWer has done it but can't recall who now.
We had a crack at it over 3 days a couple of years ago. Day 1 was ok - legs 1 & 2. 50k ish, plenty of climbing / descending. Day 2 was hideous so we bailed on Leg 3 and got to Wasdale over Styhead instead. Day 3 was even worse but we needed to get back from Wasdale so we did Leg 4. Nav was painfully slow with 20m visibility and brutal winds. Needless to say, we didn't do Leg 5 either!!
My big takeaway was that you simply need to spend a LOT of time in the fells. Long days hill walking better than short fast fell races. It's all about time on your feet and ability to keep moving at a steady (not fast) pace.
Still part of me thinks I'd love to do it but I doubt I ever will! I'm quickly approaching the age to qualify for the Joss Naylor Lakeland Challenge - shorter than the BG but sounds harder to me!!
Less convenient but I plug most things into my Mac in the Kitchen so I download automatically then drag them across manually using the Garmin Express app. Needs plugging in every few days anyway to recharge so not too much of a hardship. Music syncs with Spotify which I dont really use for podcasts anyway.
Important thing for me is that there is a bit of faff before the run but its pretty intuitive when out. Starting music and run etc and switching between them if needed is pretty easy.
Nothing as good as a phone but I never carry one unless I am out for hours in the hills etc.
@thecaptain, I use a Garmin watch (645 Music) for music and podcasts and in truth, certainly compared to a phone, it's a bit clunky to download and update. But, it means I don't need to carry a phone and that more than outweighs the faff of downloading things to the watch.
Battery life is lessened but I've ran for 4 hours with GPS and Bluetooth running and the battery wasn't empty by the end, I don't think my watch model is renowned for it's battery life either.
On the odd occasions I do run with my phone I tend to use that instead of the watch.
I have considered it many times over the years but each time I get fit enough I revert back to road/Xc which is what I prefer to run. @mrsparkle has done the JN challenge and is very experienced.
As @dashed says you need to do a lot of ascents and descents its not the speed or even the distance that takes so much out of you. If you hop over to the FRA forum you will get all the information you need and if you volunteer to help others in their training and attempts then you will have no shortage of volunteers to help you.
I have considered it many times over the years but each time I get fit enough I revert back to road/Xc which is what I prefer to run. @mrsparkle has done the JN challenge and is very experienced.
The Joss is the old man's Bob Graham. I should have done the BG when I was a young whipper snapper of 40, twenty years ago! I've always regretted it. I've supported on quite a few over the years. As @surfer says - the FRA forum/FB page is a good place to go for help and advice. One of my mates from our club is going next year and I'm hoping to pace him on Leg 5 (aka the Glory leg!).
@dashed - the time cuts at age 50 make it harder than the BG apparently. I waited until I was in the V55 range. And only just made it!
PODCASTS.APPLE.COM Thanks both re:garmin music, it sounds like (as I'd suspected) it's not really worth it for me. I always take my phone anyway, which is pretty small and light.
A rather different running experience for me at the weekend. Having run 2 of the Centurion 100 mile races, Thames Path and South Downs Way, I have my eye on the North Downs Way for next year. I thought that a recce of the 2nd half could be beneficial, so volunteered to pace a friend for the 2nd half. Normally I'm home and in the bath by the time it gets dark, but knew that this wouldn't be the case! I met him 55 miles in at about 4:30pm, he was in 21st place having run fairly briskly for the 1st half, but this was showing quickly, and by the next aid station at 60 miles he needed a significant sit-down. He was telling me to find someone else to pace and continue on with them, as he was very doubtful that he would be finishing, and would most likely drop out shortly. Fortunately no-one else wanted my company, and a coffee perked him up, so we carried on trotting, albeit at slightly reduced pace. Head-torches went on a bit after 9pm as the sun set, and then went off again at about 4:30am as the sun rose, and we trundled into Ashford to finish on the track at 5:39, comfortably inside the 24 hour mark. 6:32am train, back home to Wimbledon about 8:15, probably feeling as rough from sleep depravation as I would have been physically from running double the distance!
Sunset just after crossing the Medway near Rochester
That's the moon, head torches about to go on
Dawn a few miles from the finish
A good bit of salt on my mate's face!
I shot quite a bit of GoPro footage too which I'll edit down into something hopefully reasonably watchable