Forum menu
They do need to be flat, just got hard at them and you'll get a similar effect.
One of my favourite Saturday runs is an easy 15 miles to Cannon Hill parkrun, 3 miles fast round the course and then 3 miles into the centre of Birmingham for breakfast and the train home. It breaks the long runs up and makes them a little less dull too.
Do need or don't?
Anyway, I'd definitely aim to get some hills in. Ideally you want to train on terrain similar to the race.
Do need or don’t?
Don't, missed the edit window by seconds!
But yeah, focus on hills.
Anybody use Hoka Rocket X shoes? Just ordered a pair for some road action.
Definitely do hilly runs if targeting a long hilly event! You might get away without on a short event but an ultra will hurt you badly, perhaps the descents more than the climbs. Do some running down as well as up.
Anybody use Hoka Rocket X shoes? Just ordered a pair for some road action.
As the resident shoe geek, the answer is “yes, of course”.
I quite liked them but I ordered a size to small so they gave me some toe issues. Good for fast stuff, a bit stiff if going slower.
Can you guys point me in the direction of some YouTube videos about how to run downhill off-road. I feel, like xc mtb, it's the secret weapon that not everyone practices.
Short and sweet
Damn, its been too long since ive done any glissading
That’s looks seriously unforgiving on the knees, mine give serious grief just walking down any steep hill.
Anecdotal but, I have a Pilates/Physio instructor who has been dealing with that very issue in me and it currently seems to be working.
Lots of core work, lots of work making sure the glutes are firing, managing hip alignment, and lots of balance work seem to have addressed issues related to long technical descents.
It actually felt quite unusual when things started working together rather than in isolation, e.g. descents feeling like its all about the knees changing to descents feeling like its in the back/core/glutes as well.
Trail ultra performance really benefits from bringing some thought into the training plan, developing proprioception, with balance board work, core strength and thereby allowing you to improve pace on tricky ground. Being able to run steadily, even slowly, on technical terrain without costing you too much of your effort or brain power will give you a significant advantage over many longer distance runners.
The place where so many of our folk come unstuck is tough, stony singletrack, so if you can run that, even quite steadily & securely, it'll give you a big advantage.
Plus, doing this without an expensive fall in terms of the energy & confidence expended through even a minor injury will keep your flow and pace better than many. At the Highland Fling in April, about 40% of the front 30 runners had taken a tumble on the trail at some point, several more than once.
If you're a mountain biker, would you go straight from a blue bike park route to an EWS stage..? Probably not. In your running plan, find a tricky trail and session it, gradually improving your ability to be nimble, for want of a better word.
Plus remember the ultra mantra: start off slowly, then slow down some more. Once you're past 50 miles, it'll repay you in spades....
In your running plan, find a tricky trail and session it, gradually improving your ability to be nimble, for want of a better word.
I'd add a caveat to that, and it's what I said earlier:
you want to train on terrain similar to the race.
Clearly any downhill training is better than nothing, but there's quite a big difference between, say, a fast, steep and relatively smooth singletrack, and a rocky scree slope.
Time for a shoe update?
I suspect this is of interest to very few, but some may be interested if only to take the pee out of me. Safe to say I have a problem and that I need more storage space!
Nike Vaporfly x 3 (300 miles and to be retired, 100 miles, brand new). Still the best racing shoe I’ve tried. 300 miles is about their limit though, they’re just started to feel a bit off.
Nike Invincible (250 miles). A wonderfully soft easy day shoe.
Nike Pegasus 36 x 2 (400 miles (to be retired), brand new). The best Pegasus model, just a great all rounder, but now almost impossible to find.
Nike Pegasus 36 Trail (150 miles). OK, maybe this is the best Pegasus model, a perfect all-rounder for light trails, well cushioned and so comfy. Also now impossible to find.
Nike Pegasus 36 Shield (50 miles). Only really worn in the snow or stood around at wet parkrun’s.
Nike Pegasus 37 (150 miles, relegated to the garden). Bang average, don’t buy these, poor upper and lockdown, and a lifeless mid-sole.
Nike Pegasus 38 x 1 (100 miles). Not bad, bit heavy and uninspiring, but not a bad shoe.
Nike Pegasus Trail 3 (150 miles). A perfectly functional easy trail shoe, bit too heavy and poor grip, but well cushioned and very comfy.
Nike Terra Kiger 6 (260 miles). More suited to looser trails, good in the mud, terrible on wet rocks.
Nike Terra Kiger 7 (20 miles). As above but with a slightly better fitting upper.
Nike Streak 7 (200 miles). Super light, old skool racing flat. Great fun to run in but they do beat you up.
Adidas SL20 x 3 (400 miles (to be retired), 200 miles, brand new). Simple, light tempo shoe. Very basic design, not well cushioned and work best at pace, my fast club run shoe. Great traction too, I’ve used these in a couple of trail 10k’s.
Adidas Adios 5 (50 miles). Lightweight and minimal tempo shoe, good for short blasts and the odd 5k race too. Good for track work too.
Incoming/under debate:
Adidas Takumi Sen 8. Quite fancy a pair of fast 5/10k shoes and didn’t like the Nike Streakfly.
Nike Invincible. Love these as an everyday shoe and will be getting a backup pair, hopefully on the cheap as a new version is due out soon.
A cushioned trail shoe. For long days on the trails. The Peg 36 trail did this well but they’re no longer available, Peg Trail 3 was close but not right. Hoka Speedgoat perhaps? One of the Adidas Terrex models? Saucony Peregrine? New Peg Trail 4?
A TBC daily shoe. I'm down to my last pair of Peg 36’s so need a replacement. Peg 39’s maybe? NB 880 maybe? Brooks Ghost?
Been and gone:
Hoka Carbon X. Nice shoe, but I bought the wrong size so they never quite worked for me. Felt good going fast, less good at easy pace.
Reebok Floatride Energy 4, I know this could be a great daily trainer and it’s ridiculous value but it just doesn’t fit my feet.
Saucony Endorphin Speed, great on paper but quite a high volume toe box that didn’t work for me.
Nike Alphafly, I just found these dull and badly fitting with a really high arch. Clearly they’re fast but they didn’t work for me at all.
Nike Tempo Next, loud, heavy and just a bit weird. Just didn’t gel with these at all.
ASICS Novablast 2, well liked shoe by many but I found them neither one or the other. Not as cushioned as I hoped, and not as “poppy” either.
Brooks Launch, no, just no. Badly fitted, dull to run in, little or no cushion, little or no pop, just no.
@lunge - I can confirm the Takumi Sen 8 are a rapid shoe. As a wearer of mostly Adidas shoes these fit in a similar way to their other offerings (Adios Pro, Adios, Adizero Pro etc) but feel supple and sharp straight out of the box. I don't think you will be disappointed with these.
@lunge various of my mates swear by New Balance Hierro v6's as a "cushioned trail shoe" - useless in mud, and highly amusing to watch them run in snow, but great in drier conditions.
@lunge, have you used the Next% race shoe? I got surprisingly good results with a pair.
have you used the Next% race shoe? I got surprisingly good results with a pair.
@thecaptain, Vaporfly Next%? Yes, on my third pair, a magnificent shoe which is super fast and great fun to run in. Love them.
@lunge, just got a pair of Hoka Speedgoat 5s myself. Only a couple of runs in so far, but seem to grip nicely on loose, damp, gravelly, stony surfaces. Also seem quite grippy on grass and compacted mud (not tried on loose sloppy mud yet).
Seem a slightly narrower fit than my other Hoka shoes (Clifton 8, Rincon 3) but still plenty comfy for me.
Plus, doing this without an expensive fall in terms of the energy & confidence expended through even a minor injury will keep your flow and pace better than many. At the Highland Fling in April, about 40% of the front 30 runners had taken a tumble on the trail at some point, several more than once.
I'd echo what highland man says - thankfully I was one of the 60% top 30 that managed not to tumble this year by I did make up alot of ground on the rough stuff just by running it before and being confident on it. Specificity is key!
Thanks @lunge when I saw vaporfly in your list I just imagined the original 4%, perhaps because I'm still using some of those (bought just before start of covid lockdown). I have two 4%s (one pair is well used), a next% in the cow-slurry "gyakusou" style which is ugly as hell but was being sold cheap, and also alphafly. Fortunately they are all quick 🙂
I had a "Big Race!" with my little boy across the recreation ground today finishing by the pole and bench. Could I just run up to the bench and stop? No! Of course not. I had to run between it and the pole where unfortunately for me a hidden hole awaited which my left foot half planted itself into. Literally the in the last few steps.
It didn't feel too bad at first so I chased the children around a bit more. We had another race but foot was starting to feel painful. Had a lay down when I got home.
Foot is now painful to walk on. I don't like pain! Outer side of left foot. Predominantly forward of ankle toward middle. Upper more than lower. Tried calling 111 but gave up after 20 minutes. Not found anything specific through internet searches so wondered if you guys had any ideas?
So annoyed!
Strap it up and rest. You've probably strained some ligaments, it will recover in time (might be weak for a while). Last time I twisted my ankle quite badly (enough to DNF a race, I didn't keep running around on it!) I was jogging on roads quite soon but kept off anything rough for a few weeks, could feel it was a bit unstable.
This was my Saturday https://www.strava.com/activities/7292822633
I had meant to drop a tracking link here in advance for anyone to dot-watch had they been interested, but I was crazy busy last week and forgot... I can almost negotiate stairs again normally now, which is nice!
That is an incredible run @turboferret. How you can hold 9 minute miles for 100 miles and still think you can go quicker is beyond me. Amazing.
Awesome running @turboferret. How did the strategy pan out in the end?
We had our local Boundary relay race on Saturday. I got the tough leg (6 - 11.4 miles) which takes in Wharncliffe crags and a couple of large climbs. I was doing great until coming off the crags, just before the gate, thinking I had negotiated the worst of it, and down I go. If I was a car I would have dinged every panel (except fortunately the windscreen). I have both knees, left shin, left hip, left forearm, left shoulder, left chest (this is giving the most jip) and right hand scuffed and bruised. I managed to get up and drag myself to the finish. Fortunately no-one saw me tumble! Managed a steady 6 miler yesterday so I can't be too bad...
It's the West Highland Way race this coming weekend, just over 200 runners starting at 0100 Saturday in Milngavie. Sleep deprivation beckons, along with stress and anxiety..
We've had quite a few Covid call offs in the last few weeks, some of these for people with earlier infections still who are unable to train and some more recently acquiring it and floored. That's yet another hazard to add to the routine ones that knock out 30%+ of the original start list before they actually get to the start line.
Finish line medical duties of this race usually have a theme each year; might be a particular anterior tibialis tendonitis, it might be trench foot. Or perhaps could be cloudy eye, persistent vomiting or postural hypotensive collapses on the line. But there's always one thing that you see over and again and it's different every time; dunno why that is but it adds to the challenge. At least I'm not running this year, just get the race started, medic teams in place and kit sorted, then head for the finish line and await developments. Happy days.
Nothing like @Turboferrets's amazing effort, but I completed the Coniston Half marathon yesterday with my buddy.
I got diagnosed with anaemia recently and was bricking it that i wouldn't get round, but felt really good yesterday and coming out the other side of it. Two weeks ago i could barely get up the stairs without being out of breath and light-headed so finishing this was a major milestone for me this year.
It was miles off my usual pace on a course like that, but with my lack of training and stress levels through roof recently i actually felt a bit emotional that i knocked this off. Edd's calf started playing up so with 3.5km to go he sent me on my way and i knocked out a 5:40min pace to the end.
We both have the Lakeland 55km Ultra in a few weeks, both massively undertrained for it, for lots of reasons, but we're going to give it a good try at it
I did the 55k last year if you need any pointers. Not particularly quick mind!
Might be different this year if it's a mass start but one of the checkpoints in the langdale section (forest) was running low. The rest were great though. Grasmere was good in terms of seating and being able to properly refuel. The climb up to Grisedale Tarn and descent after see the longest bits of climb/descent. First climb to Kirkstone Inn is relatively gentle compared to the road which you only join near the end.
On Saturday I did my last proper long run before my 100 miler at the beginning of July. We did the route of a local ultra, the TP60, which is just over 60km going up and down some of the local mountains. Got to the end feeling tired but fully intact which is a good sign.
That's me in the long sleeves - it was over 30C but it's either long sleeves or sunburn...
Funnily enough the pace was nothing like @turboferret 's effort - that's pretty amazing!
That looks epic @mogrim - you're in Spain if I recall, where is that picture taken?
@mrsheen - Oh good info, thank you. We're aiming to beat cut-offs and survive, neither of us are racing whippets!
My strategy was to try and set a new course record, and not make so many of the mistakes that I did at the Thames Path last year - mainly setting off far too fast, taking on way too many carbs, puking everything up at halfway and crawling to the finish. I also saw that the winner of the Thames Path this year held all of his kit in a waist belt, so wasn't carrying anything on his back. This looked like a great idea, and would leave the back exposed to dissipate heat, which if it was warm would be a great benefit. I sewed a big pocket into the back of an old pair of Skins compression shorts which had lost the elastic from the waistband, so were pretty much useless anyway. They worked nicely so I could have my whole torso free, and while it wasn't particularly hot ~20ish degrees, it was pretty sunny all do, so I think this made a difference.
What I hadn't managed to do was get as many miles in during training as I would have liked, nor hills. Commuting to Dunkirk (not famous for hills) most weeks this year didn't help either, and lack of preparation became apparent fairly early on. I had in mind a 13 hour goal pace, which was perhaps rather optimistic, but even 14 hour course record seemed unlikely at the halfway point. I was doing plenty of sums working out how my current pace compared to what I needed to run, and I quickly reverted to trying to stay ahead of 2nd place, who was never more than about 3 miles behind.
Again I had crew who did an amazing job of keeping me fueled and also cooling me down with ice, and I had some pacers too who joined from halfway doing short stints. Basically I worked on the marginal gains, but had neglected the core aspect of training, so I was very lucky to sneak the win, and it was my smallest winning margin ever, about 15 minutes, regardless of race distance.
On the fueling front though, instead of aiming for 80g carbs/hour, I just went with what my stomach could take, which ended up as about 5.5 litres of McMaurten (my own Maurten mix) over the distance, which worked out as about 30g carbs/hour, on the low side of what you might expect, but was all I could handle without any GI distress. However, I was still peeing without issue all the way to the end, and afterwards, and only lost about 2kg of weight, rather than the 6 I did at Thames Path, so this wasn't a complete fail.
Was it fun - not entirely sure. It's a long time to be running, even just the 1st half solo, morale improved significantly once I had a buddy with me, but of course the pain levels ramped up.
I walked all the uphills, probably more than I should have done, but it did mean I didn't completely slow to a crawl at the finish, so the ups were a relief as a good excuse for a walk 🙂
@alanf that's the Laguna de los Pajaros, the peak you can see in the background is the crest leading up to Mt. Peñalara which is the highest mountain in Madrid (2,428m).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C3%B1alara
Anyone here use a Bosu ball? My physio has advised itd be useful for some of my numerous issues....
Looking around the price seems to vary from £30 to approaching £200 and ive no idea why beyond looking better made.
@piemonster - no experience myself, but my friend swears by them for improving strength around joints and hips
Cheers @spawnofyorkshire
Thats pretty much what im getting from the Physio too.
Just a question of whether to go cheap or ALL IN.
Ergh, first running injury after starting in November.. flowly got up to 22.30min 5k's from 31 mins so been quite pleased with myself. Was going with a bit of spirit around the park run and had to dodge someone who stopped in front of me, hit a rock and over the ankle goes. Thankfully not broken and I can put weight on it but it's very purple.
Slow road to recovery for me... sad times.
Todays questions@
Given it's 30 ish degrees here in the midlands and I have a 10k race this evening...
1. How many pints is it advisable to drink before?
2. How many minutes from a PB of 37 minutes will each pint take from the time?
3. How long will the first pint last after the run? (please answer this to the nearest second...)
Beer or water?
Beer or water?
Either or...
Yesterday was my first ultra, the bishops castle 50k. Been training pretty hard for it so was fairly confidant in my ability going into it. I wanted to run sub 7 hour but dream time was sub 6 hour. I felt real good and strong running until around mile 22, then hips started to hurt and it became a bit of a battle! Kept plodding though and made it over the line in 5 hours 46 minutes!! 5th place finisher!! I’m over the moon with my running after so much self doubt not having great training runs leading up to it
I’m stiff this morning and walking like an old man but so happy!
Half thinking what’s next already!
Saturday was grim.
High route was shut due to windspeed (80mph) and wind chill (-11/12)
Started our journey at 2am got our athlete to sign on and swim start. A slightly stressed Frenchman trying to park a manual hire car managed to crash into me twice while I was parked.
Our athlete come out the water quick. Onto bike. Put in a storming ride round to garve then the wind exposed the fact she was built like a climber / runner and the power wasn't there for the 40 or so km of 40kph headwinds
Came in off the bike 1.45 later than expected due to that.so we headed out on the run at 3.30pm
Had my work cut out just getting her to the t2a cutoff. Which we made with 5 mins to spare.
Got off the mountain at 10:30pm. I couldn't have been any wetter had I jumped into the loch. I had to give our athlete my warm hill gear she was really struggling with the cold and I was only mildly discomfort due to the lack of fatigue that she had.
But.......if you ever get a chance to do support at celtman do it. What an atmosphere. No plans to even plan to want to do it.... But what an event.
Any recommendations for a fairly lightweight waterproof for fell running? Need one for the mandatory kit, but prefer to buy one I can use all year round rather than an ultra lightweight one which will be no use if I actually need it. One which will ok with a racevest/pack.
Prefer to buy a decent one which is packable/breathable and robust as possible.
I've got a Decathlon one that's doing great service - one of these:
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-waterproof-jacket-trail-running/_/R-p-164431?mc=8556433&c=BLACK