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. I think ultimately I’d like to get round faster than my supported effort and don’t mind stashing stuff, but driving out to Wasdale to stash food seems to defeat the flexibility option and relying on Cafes (of which there are few) could be a folly, so it might be best to go unsupported.
Physically there isn't much difference between solo with static support and solo with stashes. Mentally it's a different thing though and some will struggle more than others with that. As for solo self contained, well that depends on how you feel about carrying 24hrs worth of food and sufficient water. The water could be the challenge on the BG, depending on conditions there are some pretty long sections with limited water options. Relying on cafés could be time consuming and risky
Going faster in any of those styles than a supported round will be a challenge unless you've generally improved as a runner but challenge is what it's all about! I'm not convinced that having a target time is always helpful in these things as there's a lot that can go wrong in 24 hrs of running and you never know how you'll feel on the day. That's my ten cents based on 2 successful 24hr rounds (CRR&BG) and 2 failures (BG and PB) 🙂
Edit: my successful BG,CRR and failed BG were solo static support. Failed PB was solo with stashes but ultimately it was weather, a niggling injury and a sudden rush of common sense that killed it.
Another edit: you can keep a bit of flexibility by very carefully stashing non perishables. For the PB nobody was going to happen on my stashes but I labeled them with what they were for and a date when I'd have removed them by just in case.
Cheers Spin. I think water will be ok, as long as its not bone dry i know where most of the water points are, can always pilfer water from Wasdale campsite. Carrying all the food is going to be a fair heft, and Dunmail Raise is probably the only practical stash point but is probably most beneficial. Thanks for your advice!
For anyone suffering niggles, a few minutes every night with a foam roller on the hamstrings / quads and glutes works wonders, maybe a massage ball too.
I think water will be ok, as long as its not bone dry i know where most of the water points are
I thought I did too but it was in the middle of a proper heatwave and pretty much everything was dry or such a trickle that I wouldn't have been happy supping it.
Utmost admiration for successful BG rounds. We tried to walk it in 3 days a couple of years back and failed miserably. Day 1 was ok (about 55km I seem to recall - legs 1 & 2) then the weather crapped out massively so we bailed on leg 3 and took styhead pass to Wasdale. Day 3 the weather was even worse - took us about 12 hours to do Leg 4 and some of the worst conditions I've been out in the fells. Terrible visibility meant route finding was really slow with no reference points and having to resort to oldschool nav - even though we knew big chunks of the route! But I still have dreams of doing it one day 😉
On the fell running theme - do any of you wear waterproof socks? I've always just got on with wet feet and never had a problem. But a couple of wet / icy / snowy runs lately and I've got really cold feet and then subsequently had chilblains on a couple of toes (prob jumping in a hot shower didn't help!) which were bloody painful. I've got a pair of sealskinz to try but they're bulky and not very snug fitting so not holding out much hope. Other option is just get on with cold feet for the rare days there's snow underfoot, but warm up slowly afterwards to try and avoid chilblains.
I have done when it's slush or you are going in and out of freezing level but if it's just wet then I apply rule #5.
One such day was reccying the Wasdale leg of the BG - raining when we started up Yewbarrow, sleet by halfway up, snow on top. Then we were in dry snow when on the summits and in wet snow or slush on the cols. The only other people we saw were three walkers on Pillar, it's the only time I've been on Great Gable and not met anyone. A really grim day weatherwise.
@spin - could you PM me please? I've tried to PM you but your user profile doesn't come up.
One major benefit of the solo BG is your not tied to a particular date when all your supporters can do it, you can go on a weekend that looks like its going to be decent weather.
Neoprene socks have been my choice, 3mm from Decathlon. I have a pair of winter shoes that are a half size larger to accomodate. Wear a thin pair underneath to prevent blisters in theory, but I've always got on fine with them straight. Toes are normally alright for the cold, its my hands that tend to suffer.
I’ve tried running in SealSkins but don’t like them at all.
I’ve got a pair of GTX lined shoes which are OK but don’t half make your feet sweat and a pair of Nike Shield that are better but not quite as waterproof.
In truth, I just accept my feet get wet and don’t worry about it.
Wet feet is just normal. Cold though? In mountains in winter? No thanks. I've been using seal skins for years and happy with that. Find the feet less soggy and white with them rather than neoprene.
@spin – could you PM me please
@whitestone just done that, let me know if you didn't get it.
Edit, reminds me of the old country song, 'if your phone isn't ringing you'll know it's me'.
Thanks folks - I’ll give the sealskins a try. Not fussed about wet but had a few runs over the last couple of weeks with snow / ice mixed with wet and boggy so it’s the cold (and horrible blistered and bruised toes due to chilblains) that I’d like to minimise.
For those who have done the BGR, how have you gone about planning and learning the route?
I knew most of it from years of fell walking and running, including races, in the area. Somewhat oddly I'd never been in the Northern Fells until training for the BGR. Apart from that area it was the few "BGR lines" that I didn't know:
up Clough Head
Seat Sandal - Dunmail Raise - Steel Fell
the rakes up Bowfell
the descent to Wasdale from Scafell
Yewbarrow
Black Crag
Kirkfell
Probably about 8-10km in total.
Planning - grab some mates (who you trust) with the promise of a great day on the fells. The hardest job is road support.
@j4mesj4mes - read the excellent Feet in the Clouds by Richard Askwith for an insight into how someone living at the 'wrong' end of the country plans a BGR!
No news yet on fell racing this year, I imagine? The FRA handbook came without the calendar this year 🙁
Back into lockdown here for at least the next 20 days - mountains off limits except for the one which falls inside the municipal boundary of a city of 180,000 people. Did a 15k loop of it on a rainy midweek morning and it was still quite busy, and really heavily churned up. My Walshes or X Talons would be ideal for it but there's 2.5km each way of pavement to get to the trail, should try riding across town instead of running 💡
Feet in the clouds +1, brilliant book.
Study the maps, break it down into sections, run them, learn them, and volunteer to support others seems to be the way to go.
For those who have done the BGR, how have you gone about planning and learning the route?
Study the Harvey map and get out on the route whenever you can. Lots of useful websites.
Can anyone recommend a free or cheap-ish source for training plans please?
I've never followed a training plan before as I was just running for enjoyment and have never done any races. Recently been pretty unmotivated (was pretty burnt out after the 100 days of exercise challenge so took a few weeks to chill out and never really managed to get back on the bandwagon - I think I only ran 3 or 4 times in January) and I'm hoping that a bit of accountability from a training plan might help.
I usually prefer hill running but can't really get to the hills with the lockdown rules just now so I think I'd like to focus on improving my 5k time.
There's training plans on Strava premium, not sure how good they are, but the Strava sub isn't much money.
There's also some on places like Runners World, again, not sure of the quality, my wife followed the marathon plan which was quite good though I'd argue the speeds for the long runs were too slow.
Cheers lunge, already a premium member but I had no idea that was a feature - just signed up for the 5k training plan so I'll see how I get on with that
6 week training plan starts on Monday 8th so I'll make sure to get out for a max effort 5k sometime this week so I've got a decent starting block to compare it against
I looked at the training plans on Garmin connect, but IIRC you couldn't specify a pace any quicker than about 7.30 minute miles! I'll have a lok at the strava ones.
there's a 5k training plan in this months runners world* which has just dropped through the letterbox, if you want I'll send some pics sayno?
*wife bought me a subscription, it's pretty pish!
I looked at the training plans on Garmin connect, but IIRC you couldn’t specify a pace any quicker than about 7.30 minute miles! I’ll have a lok at the strava ones.
This isnt exactly correct, the only way you'll get no pace choice is if you select "I dont run" in the distance options, even if you select 1-8 miles per week you'll get a pace starting at 3:45 p/km.
Just completed my first RED Jan, managed to get a PB for my 10k and clock up over 100k, not huge numbers but getting my yearly fitness challenge off to a good start. It taught me not only can I run on no sleep (teething 6 month old) and run in the rain wind and snow but I can indeed run everyday, even if its just to the shop and back.
Ah, maybe I missed that jolmes!
Edit - nope 'this plan is for runners who intend to complete at 7.00 minutes per mile or slower.
Even if I put in that I do 21-25 miles per week, and say that my average pace is 6 minute miles* the fastest time it allows me to aim for is 22 minutes.
* Obviously I don't, but to prove the point!
I've signed up for the Strave plan now and it looks really good and pretty manageable so I'll see how that goes - cheers for the offer though Nobeer!
Good stuff sayno, I've signed up too, been doing too many easy miles recently, need something to aim at. I've talked about getting sub 20 for a couple of years now, time to get it done!.
That's interesting, I thought it might be a conversion thing then as my Garmin is in km but even that, 3:45 km/min is 5:55 min/mile.
I do see your numbers in the summary about the activities but once inside the plan I can change the pace anywhere from 3:45 - 9:30 min/km regarding average pace.
Didnt like the Garmin plans anyway, did both the 5k and 10k one and I think I'm not great at listening to commands.
I don't like how it takes over your watch too!
Quick question for all you runners...
I ran my first half marathon last week (off-road, along the north downs way) in my Salomon speedcross trail shoes. I got a few blisters on the tips of my toes, and underneath (didn't notice whilst running).
Would you expect my feet to toughen up and adjust to this a bit, and the blisters stop? Or is is generally a case of the shoe isn't quite right for me? They feel great, but maybe slightly cramped in the toe-box when descending.
I have an on-off relationship with running- tend to do it more in the winter as I'm riding less. I've been running 5/10ks a few times a week for the last few months though
The runners world 5k 4wk plan was on their Instagram and Facebook pages.
Can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't dream of running trails in cramped shoes, I much prefer shoes that are a size up, with the laces done properly to stop feet sliding forward descending. Means I can also wear a warm sock that helps due to a wee bit of padding.
Feet swell up too, doing longer distances.
Would you expect my feet to toughen up and adjust to this a bit, and the blisters stop? Or is is generally a case of the shoe isn’t quite right for me?
@spicer, a bit of both I'd suggest.
Some shoes just don't work, but your feet definitely toughen up to a degree.
I find socks as bigger cause of issues than shoes, I'm quite picky on what I wear and make sure I Vaseline my toes up for anything more than an hour or so of running.
Any recommendations for ‘mud’ shoes that aren’t mudclaws? The sole pattern on mud claws looks to be what I’m after but the narrow fit and minimal drop don’t suit ideal for me.
running off road in a pair of brooks cascadia’s at the moment that just aren’t cutting it. Went over three times on my last run on the moors. They weren’t great in mud when new but even worse now they’ve done 1000km.
so, aggressive sole, wide-ish toe box, 8mm drop. Any suggestions?
Spikes. It's very icy here and looks like it will be for a while. Looking at Kahtoola at the moment. Nanospikes look like they're fine for road and pavement but going off-road I'm thinking Exospikes might be more appropriate.
Any other suggestions?
Agree on mudclaws, bought a pair last year, ran Carnethy 5 as their first run, felt like I was wearing Elton John's platform boots, awesome grip, but dreadful in every other way. Washed and sold em.
Never really replaced them, just use my fujitrabuco, not as good grip, but far comfier and stable.
Today was the coldest run of the winter, sleaty easterly, horrible. Ran the club hill repeat session, as I did last week. Really surprised myself, as I've only really been doing zone 2 runs for months now, rarely pushing myself, going through the motions.
But last week was rocking faster than ever pace, this week faster again. God knows where that came from!.
so, aggressive sole, wide-ish toe box, 8mm drop. Any suggestions?
Merrel long sky or innov8 x talon ultra the merrels have quite a thick sole so more protective underfoot in rocky terrain and trails. Supposed to he 8mm drop but feels more to me.
X talon better for technical off piste stuff where ankle rolling is likely but less protective. 6mm drop from memory.
Also newer mudclaws feel much narrower than the older versions of the shoe due to the way the sole is moulded. Mudclaw 300's if you can find them are a much more versatile shoe than the current mudclaws.
Jambo, have a look at Nike Terra Kiger, that might for the Bill.
I moved on from mudclaws to La Sportiva Mutant. 10mm drop rather than the 8mm you said but ive found them really stable and grippy in all sorts of horrendous muck.
I never got on with Mudclaws, but use the X-Talon Ultra 260 - good grip, 8mm drop and wider toe box as well.
BGR information =
https://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?22-Bob-Graham
http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bgr_notes.php
The 3D map / satellite utility on OS online is handy as well, as can Google Maps / earth
thanks for the suggestions. the sportiva mutants look promising so going to order a pair to try.
Thanks for the tips folks. Will keep going on some more hilly off road runs and see if my feet toughen up.
Vaseline to the toes is an interesting suggestion, I'm 50/50 as to if you're serious or completely taking the pi55 but I'm going to give it a go!
@spicer, 100% serious, it works a treat.
As a runner, I am not shy of applying Vaseline to all kinds of places before a long run. Nipples, toes, inner thighs, armpits, have all been covered to help with chafing.
Afternoon all, everyone well?
Shoe talk from me again.
I'm after a new pair or 2 and am trying to be brave and edge away from another pair of Nike's (don't really like the Peg 37's, Milers are fine but dull and I don't want to pay £160 for a pair of the new Invincibles).
The key word here is "cheap" as I'd quite like another pair of VaporFly's and can't justify them if I've just spent £100+ on some training shoes!
So, any suggestions really good value shoes for the slightly wide footed high mileage runners? Seen some Mizuno Duel Sonic on the cheap but I suspect they're a little racier than I really want.
I recently bought the Mudclaw 275s and compared to the 300s I have already they're narrower and longer for the same size, 8 in my case, always go up one and all my off road shoes are a variety of Inov8. I seem to get on well with them. The 300s are now the Mudclaw Classic I believe.
Interesting re the Salomon above, I have a pair form years ago which quickly became my decorating shoes as they seemed to give me terrible hot spots, particularly under the arch.