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And before that we had New Labour for 14 years.
Who had to clear up the mess the Tories left behind after their nearly 2 decades in power.
But hey, you blame Labour FFS.
Lots more people on the edge than most of us realise…
I agree with this.
My difficulty is I have every sympathy for the low paid who are struggling to put food on the table and a warm roof over their families heads at present.
I have less sympathy for people who have made decisions based on having all the new cars, big house, foreign holidays, full wardrobes and more, all based on rising house prices and increasing wages... I am finding some of the handwringing about mortgages difficult, particularly when R4 has folk phoning in about their £500k mortgage while they chose to give up a well paid job to have a child - and selling the house to downsize or going back to work early seems completely off the cards - apparently the government should be bailing them out....
I survived 2008 until 2016, because fundamentally this isn’t correct.
No it fundamentally is correct. Thanks for the attempt at mansplaining, but I have a decent understanding of how economics works, thanks.
Shell, and many other powerful global corporations, continued to make profits throughout 2008. They were just lower than previously. And there was another slump in 2015, but they were still making profit. Such companies don't lay staff off and close offices etc because they're losing money, they do it because they're less profitable. That's all it is. Workers, particularly at the 'lower' end of the scale, are expendable. Shell continues to make profit today, indeed their profits are currently their highest ever. Yet fuel prices are still relatively high to the consumer. Our energy companies are now taking the piss not because global events are causing a shortage of energy in our market, but because they are taking the ****ing piss. Because they want to maximise profits now, whilst peoples fears are at their highest. Because doing so now will offset any dip in profits once the UK recession bites hard. And they are allowed to do so because our government fails to regulate them sufficiently. Oh look; France has imposed a 4% cap in energy price increases. So; EDF etc are looking elsewhere to maximise profits. UK energy customers are now effectively helping to fund the French price cap. Same as how public money is used to ensure Tesco etc can continue to make profit.
Here's how it really works: Nobody on Earth starves because of a lack of food. They starve because some **** somewhere wants to make profit.
we need a permenant trans government regulatory body.
And who would appoint the members of said body? Would they be lifetime appointments?
And yes, I will be asking them why they think we should pay, say £1800pcm yet they won’t let us remortgage and pay £1600pcm.
The answer is simple, if they think you won't default on payments then they won't be inclined to give you a better deal, because they are also in panic mode and want to retain you, at bit more profit for them, and a bit more cost to the consumer.
And who would appoint the members of said body? Would they be lifetime appointments?
That's where it becomes difficult. And I don't profess to have an answer.
What I do know is seeing Johnson signing off tory donors into the lords, is 100% corruption, and that needs to change.
A PR style system maybe, all MP's vote, but with veto rights included.
SO in a really bad case, Tory-Smythe could try to elevate his best mate, but without a say 70% cross party 'OK' vote, it's null and void.
martinhutch
Full Member
we need a permenant trans government regulatory body.
And who would appoint the members of said body? Would they be lifetime appointments?
The civil service are independent and carry out this function in the main, it’s why when kwarteng sacked the permanent secretary it kicked off, and now his choice of replacement overruled.
As for the recession, it’s the usual storm, we’ll not see much support unless there’s civil unrest or the financial markets fail, the sad truth is that a recession is a boom time for the rich, cheap assets and stressed companies desperate for survival.
@ButtonMoon “ So, because they won’t tax Big Oil the public purse pay”
I think the problem is that the claims that taxing big oil is easy massively overstate the probability of success.
Most of the big oil / gas profit related to trading of products extracted in Norway, Qatar, Australia etc etc. Corporation tax on profits is paid in those countries before the title / ownership can be sold on.
For UK trading operations, we already get c30% (higher rate) corporation tax on North Sea reserves as well as a per barrel extraction rate as part of licenses.
In total, the trading profits relating to the Uk are around £8B a year - against which the companies can quite legitimately offset things like new rigs / long term capital investment.
By virtue of having BP and (recently), Shell headquartered the Uk gets corporation tax on a slice of global profits that have nothing to do with operations in the Uk.
Those that state we can solve the problem of £60-100b energy liquidity with a one off £8B windfall taxes are simply conning the public. Without government intervention right now, retail energy companies could simply not enter in contracts for supply over the winter as they would go bust.
Most of the advocates of windfall taxes also fail to price in the loss of HQ related corporation tax over the long term - companies can delist - as Shell did when the moved to London, and as BHP did when they left the UK for tax purposes.
When that happens UK Plc loses £000Bs in corporation tax receipts and associated services profits (tax, accounting etc etc) over the following decades.
And it doesn’t come back - per the example of Ineos.
My view is 2008 was top down so didn't impact the common man as hard.
This one's bottom up so the common man's about to feel the pain
Shell, and many other powerful global corporations, continued to make profits throughout 2008. They were just lower than previously. And there was another slump in 2015, but they were still making profit. Such companies don’t lay staff off and close offices etc because they’re losing money, they do it because they’re less profitable. That’s all it is. Workers, particularly at the ‘lower’ end of the scale, are expendable.
🤣
Go back to your tinfoil hat weaving.
Unfortunately for me my experience of actually getting made redundant somewhat trump's your anti-capitalist tubthumping.
It’s funny how the posts like the one above fail to mention the £36b change in profitability for Shell between 2019 and 2020, or the £19B loss in 2020.
what to do with their ‘monthly surplus’ (which is the question I was answering) does not fall within this group.
Welcome to "I'm alright Jack world"
Go back to your tinfoil hat weaving.
Keep your head firmly in the sand.
Unfortunately for me my experience of actually getting made redundant somewhat trump’s your anti-capitalist tubthumping.
You were made redundant why? Because Shell went bust? So Shell don't exist any more? Oh...
For the hard of thinking, @hite-rite is attemting to justify 'big oil profit'
We are not talking about loss here, just a reduction in profit... For share holders.
We are not talking about loss here, just a reduction in profit… For share holders.
Yep.
My view is 2008 was top down so didn’t impact the common man as hard.
It didn't impact so hard on the common man because the prime minister at that time wasn't as committed to neo-liberalism as the current one.
He suddenly embraced socialism, as did indeed even the US Republican president. Big government came to the rescue.
The problem with capitalism is that eventually it needs a big dose of socialism to cure it - until the next inevitable crises. Which is usually about every 10-15 years.
It is hard to believe that such an inherently unstable system should be regarded by so many as the pinnacle of political and economic evolution.
Welcome to “I’m alright Jack world”
I’m not sure if you’re angry that the person with the question has some money going spare or that I answered a question on what to do with it, but, sorry I guess?
Welcome to “I’m alright Jack world”
I also have no idea which post has upset you...
My view is 2008 was top down so didn’t impact the common man as hard
It didn’t impact so hard on the common man because the prime minister at that time wasn’t as committed to neo-liberalism as the current one.
He suddenly embraced socialism, as did indeed even the US Republican president. Big government came to the rescue.
Yep, it was very well managed by Governments, who mitigated the worst aspects extremely well. Could have easily been 10x worse eg imagine we had the current lot in charge back then!
You were made redundant why? Because Shell went bust? So Shell don’t exist any more?
Who said I worked for Shell?
But actually yes, Shell bought out BG and closed down their offices in the 2016 industry downturn. In total Shell alone laid off over 10,000 people in the UK in that year. So yes, some major O&G companies did cease to exist. And these weren't "lower end" jobs you talk about, whatever they are.
Yep, it was very well managed by Governments, who mitigated the worst aspects extremely well. Could have easily been 10x worse eg imagine we had the current lot in charge back then!
The problem for Gordon Brown was that he became a victim of his own success - because the most serious financial crisis since the 1930s resulted in relatively few people losing their jobs and homes many voters failed to appreciate the seriousness of the situation.
The Tories and Liberal Democrats were able to exploit that with their attacks and false claims concerning the need for austerity.
But hey, you blame Labour FFS.
Maybe try to control your rage for long enough to read past the full stop and onto the next sentence.
Gordon Brown was that he became a victim of his own success
By selling off most of the UK gold reserves when the price of gold was historicaly low?
I wouldn't call that a success?
we need a permenant trans government regulatory body
As you say, it's problematic to actually implement. You elect the members, have them appointed by an elected body, or have some non-democratic means. All of those are vulnerable to manipulation by the kind of people who are in power at the moment. The solution is not to elect that kind of people, which means educating the electorate so that they understand the long term consequences of their choice. The people who like power know this, that's why they keep messing with the education system to give an illusion of improvement, while actually ensuring that enough voters can still be conned. Maybe I'm just being cynical.
By selling off most of the UK gold reserves when the price of gold was historicaly low?
LOL! Is that still getting trotted out!
I am of course talking about the Labour government's handling of the international credit crisis, not what Gordon Brown did ten years earlier.
I have always been very strongly opposed to New Labour, in fact in the 1997 general election I canvassed for the LibDems, which I continued to support until Nick Clegg became leader.
However my strong opposition to war mongering Labour governments does not blind me to the fact that as Prime Minister Gordon Brown took significant action to minimise the effects of the credit crisis on ordinary working people.
@hite-rite So your inner torie won't let you compute that Big Oil should be windfall taxed?
Even Shell CEO Ben van Beurden says they should!
LOL! Is that still getting trotted out!
Yep.
And so is brexit.
The Labour party have done just as much damage to the UK as the tories Have.
When will people realise...?
When the energy company put's the light out?
When you can't afford basic food?
Housebuilders are now reporting downturns in new-build reservations
I am a builder, I have 6 guys working for me, over the last week I have had our next 3 extensions/ house refurbs all cancel due to this situation.
We have gone from being super busy, booked for the next 12 months minimum to absolutely no work from 3 weeks time, for 6 guys.
Times are not looking good at the moment, especially for me now as my wife is a teacher and off on maternity leave until April.
I'm honestly quite nervous and anxious about the future.
The Labour party have done just as much damage to the UK as the tories Have.
When will people realise…?
Yeeaaah...... what has the Labour Party ever done for us?
Apart from giving us the NHS
And equal pay/banned sex discrimination
And the health and safety at work act
And created Open University
And banning race discrimination
And decriminalising homosexually
And ending capital punishment
And a multitude of other things which have had a profound effect on the lives of ordinary working people which wasn't done by the Tories.
Apart from that, what has the Labour Party ever done for us?
And equal pay/banned sex discrimination
And the health and safety at work act
And banning race discrimination
And decriminalising homosexually
Thought you were against all this kind of woke nonsense?
I'm against the importation of daft American terminology. Why did I include in my list of things that has been achieved by the Labour Party?
You strike me as one of those anti-growth coalition people Ernie.
Why are you not backing Britain?
Think you lot will enjoy this. At least they pay some taxes eh. I dare say that's a prerequisite of North sea oil extraction so it doesn't look really really bad!
When the energy company put’s the light out?
W hen you can’t afford basic food?
a
The number of people who can't afford basic food has gone up massively under the recent Tory governments. A staggering HUNDRED TIMES more people couldn't afford to buy food in 2021 than in 2008.
Honestly, you really need to pay more attention instead of just spewing bollocks. How much more evidence do you want that Tories are ****ing up badly and we're all paying the price?
How much more evidence do you want that Tories are **** up badly and we’re all paying the price?
Would another government have done it any better?
Well they couldn’t have done it much worse.
Would another government have done it any better?
Without a shadow of a doubt.
Would another government have done it any better?
Labour in 2019 were proposing to bring the BoE under democratic control and were planning to spend 250bn on investment into public services and green infrastructure. Those two things would have not only prevented the recession we are now experiencing, but it would have also prevented the BoE making ridiculous decisions which only benefit the city at the expense of everyone else. We can be very confident that had labour won in 2019, none of what we're seeing now would have happened.
I am a builder, I have 6 guys working for me, over the last week I have had our next 3 extensions/ house refurbs all cancel due to this situation.
We have gone from being super busy, booked for the next 12 months minimum to absolutely no work from 3 weeks time, for 6 guys.
Times are not looking good at the moment, especially for me now as my wife is a teacher and off on maternity leave until April.
I’m honestly quite nervous and anxious about the future.
That's really pretty scary - at least you can downscale if you need to do - I am sure there will always be some need for your trade even if on a smaller scale. I am sure you aren't the only person in the same boat – my neighbour just sacked his builders for being an absolute shower of shite a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find anyone to take the work on for months and then all of a sudden his phone started ringing with teams available at very short notice.
Let's not forget Cameron cancelling the "green s4ite" that would have seen many homes well insulated and fitted with renewable technologies. Oven baked energy security.
The tories are reaping what they've been sowing for the past decade! That was when the economy was favourable.
Capping the unit rate now is a joke!
“Labour in 2019 were proposing to bring the BoE under democratic control and were planning to spend 250bn on investment into public services and green infrastructure“
We can probably all see that the markets haven’t taken kindly to the mini budget.
But politicising the Bank of England would be a complete disaster, not least because of the scope for the kind of discourse that we saw between Sadie Khan and the former head of the Met - which resulted in her receiving substantial (£600k) compensation for what was effectively constructive dismissal by a politician.
In many areas of public administration we are now seeing far too much overreach by politicians - at a time when the expertise and experience of the politicians is becoming increasingly and dangerously narrow.
Likewise, the £250b proposed spend (all borrowed) set against the market reduction to a £40b spend / tax reduction would have added another £7B to annual government debt interest payments at the current rates.
But politicising the Bank of England would be a complete disaster
It's not politicising it, it's making their policies and decisions transparent and accountable and setting their objectives to match the priorities of the electorate rather than a few people in private members clubs in the city. Labour weren't proposing to simply go back to what was before, which was direct control by the chancellor. They were proposing (IIRC) that an economic council be constituted which would set objectives, scrutinise bank decisions and track progress.
Likewise, the £250b proposed spend (all borrowed) set against the market reduction to a £40b spend / tax reduction would have added another £7B to annual government debt interest payments at the current rates.
Yes, *at current rates*. Had labour won in 2019 rates now would still be where they were then, and that extra spending would have been easily affordable.
But politicising the Bank of England would be a complete disaster, not least because of the scope for the kind of discourse that we saw between Sadie Khan and the former head of the Met – which resulted in her receiving substantial (£600k) compensation for what was effectively constructive dismissal by a politician.
I thought it was a lot less than that;
£166k With no constructive dismissal aspect.
Which previously banned poster are you by the way?
Which previously banned poster are you by the way?
The ghost of THM?
Who said I worked for Shell?
Whatevs. I'm really not that interested. I think you've misunderstood what I was saying anyway.
And these weren’t “lower end” jobs you talk about, whatever they are.
How many senior executives lost their jobs and had to sign on? Oh...