How does it end, I need to know!
Probably gets stabbed and it’ll be the Wokes fault.
A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’
Our daughters (13 yrs old) refer to everyone as guys - be they male, female or transgender. They even call us, their mum and dad 'guys'. All their friends use similar language.
How does it end, I need to know!
It’s left on a cliffhanger after the Daily Mail go with ‘its lycanthropic correctness gone mad!’.
This is peak boomer chat
When Thee and Thou were still used; it became to be seen as increasingly impolite to use them as they were both seen to be too familiar, and by 17thC You became more and more common especially when talking about the upper echelons, and has everyone back then (like now) wanted to be associated with the Joneses, it caught on. The change seems to have provoked the same sorts of feather spitting back than as pronoun choice does now.
I'm sure we'll get over ourselves eventually.
“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”
The gender neutral version might be:
They've filled a lady, Shirley?
Our daughters (13 yrs old) refer to everyone as guys – be they male, female or transgender. They even call us, their mum and dad ‘guys’. All their friends use similar language.
My daughter (26) also uses it. I think I'm just (over?} wary of using it and offending someone. Maybe I should just relax about it.
"Guys"
I have had folk accept it as gender neutral and also folk that have been offended by it. i would use "folk" now I think
Five Thems do great burgers though.
I try and stop myself using "Hi Guys". I'd be happy using it to mixed-gendered groups of solely Brits/Americans, but beyond those cultural groups I think it could cause confusion.
Note I said 'confusion' not 'full on HR meltdown' as I live in the real world where those things don't actually happen.
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.
I work for a US tech company and there's been a shift away from using "guys" as an inclusive term within the company. I usually just use all instead, "Hi all,...".
I was thinking about this the other day. When they were growing up some people wanted to be called Mr Smith, some were happy with you calling them by their first name, and quite often the name they used wasn’t their actual name, but something else , middle name ot whatever. They seemed to be able to cope with that so what’s the problem now with people choosing how you address them?
That's interesting. I think I see what you are saying. But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it's very easy to slip-up and to misgender them. Mr Smith couldn't be confused for Mr Jones back in the day right?
I'm happy enough to address people in any fashion they prefer. My biggest fear is letting it slip whilst in-the-flow and offending them.
I have literally worked with a dev, where the first thing he did when he got to his desk in the morning was put his cape on. First time it happened I thought it was a wind-up and I was the butt of some new-guy joke, or it was some quirky in-studio culture thing, like 'Caped Tuesdays' or something - but I soon realised that nobody else was batting an eye-lid, and do you know what, the fact that he wore a cape at work all day didn't turn out to be that big of a deal. He turned out to be a superlative full-stack dev.
I also worked with a guy who had an 'angry jacket', and everybody knew to give him a wide berth when he was wearing it... he would literally hang up a phone call, stand up from his desk, and take his angry jacket off the coat rack before changing into it and sitting down at his desk again. People would walk into the studio with the intention of speaking to him, see the jacket and turn on their heel.
So the pro-noun thing is probably one of the less weird things I could encounter in any given week... but still there is the danger that you can slip up and offend them, especially if you aren't working with them regularly.
Five Thems do great burgers though.
BRAVO!
I've been rebuked for saying 'hi guys' and try to say 'hi everyone' instead. Still do it by mistake!
But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.
Again only if you're going out of your way to be anti social. If someone in that suituation tells you that they prefer a pronoun over another, it generally means it's pretty important to them, and you should probably comply. Getting it wrong is OK, we're only human, but deliberately ignoring their request (aka The Jordan Peterson complaint) is straying into asshole territory.
Look at it this way, you don't bat a eyelid if a man tells you their name is Jordan or Taylor or Casey any more than you would if a woman told you the same thing, just address people as they want to be addressed, I don't understand the issue really.
@dakuan were you rebuked by a male or female? I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases where folk are being offended on behalf of others? Of course, sometimes that's valid if the offended person feels they can't speak up for themselves. Other times it's just folk being over-cautious, misunderstanding, or simply virtue signalling.
Do you watch a lot of GBNews?
Do you feel the need to genderise everyone you meet? If you're treating men, women, NBs, etc as equal - then don't worry how someone identifies. It's pretty easy unless you are weirdly hung up on it.
The simplest of searches, even on singletrack, would have shown that this is a pronoun thread, not the pronoun thread.
they were female
Five Thems do great burgers though.
No, they don't 🤢
The chips are good though.
That’s interesting. I think I see what you are saying. But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them. Mr Smith couldn’t be confused for Mr Jones back in the day right?
"Have you seen Jane's* photos from the Strongman** competition on Saturday?"
*an easy clue anyway, also not their real name
Can easily be swapped to:
"Have you seen their photos from the Strongman competition on Saturday?"
**they're (singular at least) quite happy to be referred to as strongman.
Do you feel the need to genderise everyone you meet? If you’re treating men, women, NBs, etc as equal – then don’t worry how someone identifies. It’s pretty easy unless you are weirdly hung up on it.
But mostly this +1
Unless there's a need to define them by some characteristic, what's your need to define them?
I have literally worked with a dev, where the first thing he did when he got to his desk in the morning was put his cape on.
Thing that didn't actually happen number 2
I also worked with a guy who had an ‘angry jacket’, and everybody knew to give him a wide berth when he was wearing it… he would literally hang up a phone call, stand up from his desk, and take his angry jacket off the coat rack before changing into it and sitting down at his desk again.
and number 3!
@dakuan - thanks. Backs up my preference of avoiding the word. If my daughter continues to use it across genders I'll assume it's similar to who is and isn't allowed to use the N-word.
Thing that didn’t actually happen number 2
I'm just confused why it's relevant that someone wore a cape?
and number 3!
Haha, I worked with a director who had a flag on a pole on his desk (a little novelty thing with the company logo on it that he got from a conference), if the flag was down you were absolutely not allowed to approach him. Seemed like a very good system to me! The open plan office equivalent to setting your teams status to busy, or passive aggressively removing the "kind" from "kind regards" on your e-mail signature.
I guess like many people, I feel as though the current implementation of gender-neutral pronouns conflicts directly with established grammar, and is therefore causing confusion.
Singular usage of "they" predates singular usage of "you." Unless you address people using thee and thou, any misunderstanding of "established grammar" here is yours I'm afraid.
“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”
"Yes, they've hired someone."
Two things here:
1) Why is it important to qualify gender but nothing else? Why aren't you tying yourself in a knot over wanting to say "they've hired a black person" or "they've hired a 40-year old"?
(Is it not an inherently sexist statement anyway? Ie, would one feel equally compelled to say "they've hired a man"?)
2) It is still perfectly acceptable to call women women despite what some quarters might want you to believe.
A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’.
I want to say that this didn't happen so hard that it unhappened things that did. If it is in fact true and not some transphobic hate speech passed on to you third-hand from the Daily Express then it's bloody stupid.
But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.
Does that happen to you a lot?
So the pro-noun thing is probably one of the less weird things I could encounter in any given week… but still there is the danger that you can slip up and offend them, especially if you aren’t working with them regularly.
This at least is a good point. To my mind it's important to at least try. You are of course going to get the occasional millitant dickhead with a point to score (which does no-one any favours and leads to stories about being sacked for saying "guys"), but most people will understand that it's all new to some folk and will appreciate you making an effort. So long as you're not deliberately misgendering or deadnaming someone, you should be OK.
I work with a Steven. That's his name, not Steve or Ste (or Dave, or Susan). He hates his name being contracted. What would you do if you worked with him and said "hey Steve"? Would you go "oops, sorry" and try harder to get their name correct next time? Or would you deliberately call him Steve because that's what you want to call him and he should get over it?
It's not difficult. We do it all the time with people with doctorates or knighthoods, no-one ever whined about addressing Ian McKellan as Sir Ian McKellan.
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.
I was with you until I read ‘could care less’ it is couldn’t care less FFS! If you could care less then you still care and that makes no sense at all.
Back on topic I use guys a lot. For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.
no-one ever whined about addressing Ian McKellan as Sir Ian McKellan.
I’m with you on contracting names but calling anybody sir can get in the sea. I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.
I'm surprised the gals are so accepting of being called guys. I don't think the guys would take being included if the terminology for a mixed group became gals, girls or some such. Patriarchal as usual?
Sorry, but you know what I mean.
Back on topic I use guys a lot. For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.
But GBeebies News told me everyone under 30 now want's to identify as unicorn!
I work for a US tech company and there’s been a shift away from using “guys” as an inclusive term within the company. I usually just use all instead, “Hi all,…”.
Maybe Harry Enfield was onto something in the 80's with "Hello everybody peeps". Try that next time and see who understands.
I use peeps all the time. Had genuinely forgotten it was his doing!
I’m surprised the gals are so accepting of being called guys
I was into horse riding as a kid. Everyone else was posh (and mostly female)... in those circles "guys" for a group of people, whatever their gender, was entirely normal. I think how it is seen may well be a class thing, dunno.
I really CBA with this woke nonsense, but THIS
supernova
Full Member
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.
IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE! It's "couldn't care less", you absolute unmentionable. Begone foul fiend!
i would use “folk” now I think
Envisions tweed jacket with leather patches on the sleeve....
Is the OP the same chat bot-esque troll that was doing the rounds before? @cougar you're usually good at spotting a shibboleth.
Well, that’s an opinion. I know folk with a different one, so steering clear of it when it might be thought inappropriate or even demeaning seems to be a precaution worth taking.
I find 'asshats' to be suitably inclusive. 'bawbags' if North of the border.
I go to a Pilates class. About half the time I'm the only male there. The female teacher addresses us all as guys.
I'm happy to call people what they would like to be called, provided it's not so obscure I forget, and if somebody wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun I'll try to do that - but the emphasis on pronouns puzzles me as, 99% of the time, pronouns are used to talk about somebody, not to somebody, so the person referred to doesn't hear them. People will generally only be aware of the pronoun referring to them when written about.
For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.
That's prejudiced against furries.
I’m with you on contracting names but calling anybody sir can get in the sea. I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.
Honestly, I feel the same of any title or honorific. Why do we need "Mr." in 2023, what purpose does it serve? It feels like a throwback to when you'd address John Smith's little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.
@cougar you’re usually good at spotting a shibboleth.
My powers are severely diminished since Delilah cut my hair, or something.
The OP's account is a couple of years old so if it is then they've invested in it.
At this point I'm going with "misguided" rather than "trolling." Which, y'know, is fine, it's good to learn things and that's what they said they wanted to do.
The Finns have had this one sorted from the get-go as they don't have seperate he/she pronouns, just 'han' for both.
So the simple solution is we all learn and adopt Finnish as our primary language.
I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.
A friend of mine (high flying London barrister at the time) was chatting with him at some do.... and then asked him which of his amazing roles he was most proud of... Gandalf or Magneto... he just ended the conversation by turning away and engaging with someone else instead. She's very cheeky though... always cracks me up.
Yes, my friend being threatened with being fired did happen.
Threatened is a broad term. People on both sides of the fence manage to make a mess of this; almost invariably people objecting to people's preference of pro-nouns are making an issue from nothing (or don't understand what a pronoun) is as you've done in the opening post.
However my wife has fallen foul of the "guys" problem before.
She runs a team with 4 men and one trans woman. She addressed an email bollocking them for being idiots, by starting with "Guys, ...". The woman came back to her objecting to the language. My wife got in a terrible state but went back, apologised if it had caused offence but explained (100% truthfully) she used the terminology in a gender neutral sense and had always done so even when she previously ran a team of all women. Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives. No HR people were hurt in the process.
Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives.
Which is exactly how normal, rational people should interact.
As I've said many times, with any demographic it's a vocal minority who give the rest a bad name. Some people simply have a chip on their shoulder. For every group of feminists there's a TERF; for every group of vegans there's a PETA activist; for every group of Christians there's the absolute roaster with a PA system and hi-vis jacket saying "EVANGELIST" on the back who I walked past in Manchester city centre the other day. It's counterproductive because all it does if piss people off and fuel "Muslims are banning Christmas" style rhetoric.
most people will understand that it’s all new to some folk and will appreciate you making an effort. So long as you’re not deliberately misgendering or deadnaming someone, you should be OK.
I work with a Steven. That’s his name, not Steve or Ste (or Dave, or Susan). He hates his name being contracted. What would you do if you worked with him and said “hey Steve”? Would you go “oops, sorry” and try harder to get their name correct next time? Or would you deliberately call him Steve because that’s what you want to call him and he should get over it?
This.
but the emphasis on pronouns puzzles me as 99% of the time, pronouns are used to talk about somebody, not to somebody, so the person referred to doesn’t hear them.
Probably true (well, not the 99% bit, that's clearly a made up statistic) - but it is important to get it right even when not there. Firstly - because it creates a habit, for you and the listeners; secondly because it is just respectful. I mean you wouldn't call Susan from accounts ugly fat Susan from accounts whether she hears it or not.
Firstly – because it creates a habit
That's a really insightful point, Jon.
People complaining about it being new or strange or different or against "established grammar" - well, perhaps, but it won't be after a little while if they practice.
Posting on STW I try to use "they" etc when referring to posters I don't know, unless they have a fairly obvious alias like "DaveRides". It's good practice, it builds habit and helps unlearn conditioning. Gender issues and pronouns aside, I have no idea whether a poster is female and it's wrong to just assume.
There's an old logic puzzle: "A man goes to see the doctor. The man is the doctor's son, but the doctor is not the man's father. How?"
Is the OP the same chat bot-esque troll that was doing the rounds before?
I suspect it's a former inhabitant. Dormant account for a few years that suddenly springs into action. Obvious troll is obvious
It feels like a throwback to when you’d address John Smith’s little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.
Slight thread hijack but, for a reason I can't remember, last week I was looking at the order of succession page on the royal family website, and there they still refer Beatrice and Eugenie, Randy Andy and Fergie's daughters, as Mrs Whatever Their Husband's Name Is. They're 9th and 11th in line to the throne, but still (partially) defined by who their husband is.
https://www.royal.uk/succession
I mean, I know the royals aren't the most progressive organisation, but this still surprised me.
