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I can barely tell which part you are objecting to
I am not objecting to anything, that's probably why you are struggling trying to figure out what it is!
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion that twice as many young men attend Catholic churches than young women, and that the reason for that is Andrew Tate.
Personally I think both claims are nonsense but if you want to believe something you have read on Reddit then that's up to you.
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding 👍
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion that twice as many young men attend Catholic churches than young women, and that the reason for that is Andrew Tate.
Personally I think both claims are nonsense but if you want to believe something you have read on Reddit then that's up to you.
Well, the article I posted above basically draws everything I've been saying into a single article (along with sources). True, it is US focused but as we've seen time and again US issues have a way of affecting the rest of the world. Particularly when those issues are centered around social media.
But hey, if you want to dismiss the entire thing as drivel I found on reddit you go right ahead.
From the article:
Vance is not just a Catholic. He’s a very specific type of Catholic, part of a group of young white men who, over the past decade, have found their way (often online) into both increasingly conservative politics and traditional religion — primarily Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, rather than the Protestantism that has been a common cultural feature in America.
But hey, if you want to dismiss the entire thing as drivel I found on reddit you go right ahead.
So you want to throw in the example of one single middle-aged individual thousands miles of away to back up your claim that nearly twice as many young men as young women attend Catholic churches, and that the reason for that is Andrew Tate?
You could have found examples of conversion to Catholicism much closer to home, how about Tony Blair and Boris Johnson? Do you think Tony Blair is a bit of of an Andrew Tate fanboi?
Btw I have not described your claims as "drivel", your are attaching far more emotional weight to the subject than is warranted. I simply said that I didn't agree with your claims.
Looking for evidence of this supposed male interest I thought I'd have a look at the number of baptisms in France by age group. In this article it say that 65% of the 11-17 year olds baptised were women.
And there are always more women than men catéchumènes
That report also points out it's the 18-25 age group that is progressing rather than Gen Z.
I've also hunted through for UK baptisms but found nothing based on actual solid stats to say men dominate, simply that they are a larger cohort than they used to be.
What I did find: 70% of asylum seekers are male and in some churches lots of asylum seekers are getting baptised:
whether they are Tate fans the article didn't state and it seems unlikely they are Peterson emulates😋 If there really were a Peterson effect why would it only affect the the Catholic church, protestants get cancer too.
I'm more and more convinced that some influencers and journalists have noticed two totally separate phenomonen and jumped to the conclusion there's a cause and effect/correlation where there is none.
So you want to throw in the example of one single middle-aged individual thousands miles of away to back up your claim that nearly twice as many young men as young women attend Catholic churches, and that the reason for that is Andrew Tate?
You could have found examples of conversion to Catholicism much closer to home, how about Tony Blair and Boris Johnson? Do you think Tony Blair is a bit of of an Andrew Tate fanboi?
How about if I say, 'OK, there are not twice as many Gen-Z men going to church as Gen-Z women.' I'm quite happy to do that.
The point is not so much the exact number, as I've said. The point is that there has been a shift we haven't seen before. Generally if there is a shift we haven't seen before there is a reason.
How about if I said, 'Andrew Tate has nothing to do with it.' I'm quite happy to do that.
The disaffection of young men is far bigger than one scumbag.
Would you be happy then and allow the rest of us to discuss this like adults or would you prefer to get into a multi-page debate about the exact definition of 'monolith'?
Looking for evidence of this supposed male interest I thought I'd have a look at the number of baptisms in France by age group. In this article it say that 65% of the 11-17 year olds baptised were women.
Just out of interest, how many Protestants are there in France? 3?
I suspect the 'Cradle vs Convert' discussion is slightly different to that being had in the US.
Saying that, the data from France is closer to what we would expect from a Francis effect. It indicates a general increase in popularity and no unexpected shift in demographics.
A couple of million or 3% of the French population are protestant, Bruce. Based on polls rather than any official stats so some room for error.
The point is that there has been a shift we haven't seen before. Generally if there is a shift we haven't seen before there is a reason.
We seem to be going round in circles covering stuff we already have. As I said previously until mefty mentioned it on this thread I had no idea about the recent increases in church attendance.
Yes it surprises me greatly and yes there must of course be an explanation.
But no I don't know the reasons and no I don't think that in the absence of an credible explanation anyone will do instead.
I do however believe that it is reasonable to assume that the "Pope Francis effect" is likely to be a contributing factor. Which if it is indeed a significant factor couldn't be more opposite to the "Andrew Tate effect".
The Pope Francis years was a very bad time for a reactionary conservative like JD Vance to convert to Catholicism. There are far more suitable Christian denominations in the United States for people like him, although iirc JD Vance like Tony Blair and Boris Johnson married a Catholic. The things some people do for their wives, eh?
A couple of million or 3% of the French population are protestant,
They didn't all immigrate with Nigel Farage's ancestors?
Well I guess that's one thing the UK should be grateful for.
A bit before Farages time. Henri IV, he of the Edit de Nantes, was protestant before converting to cathloic. The south west, Aquitaine, is where a lot of the protestants are based something to do with a load of Brits rocking up in the 19th century. There's a protestant temple in town.
Here is a story on the French increase in baptisms:
And within that they linked another story on the increases seen in the UK:
Both specifically mention the role of influencers. They also show the vast difference in genders who are getting baptised between the two countries.
One glaring difference is that the French influencers are French while the UK influencers are American.
And then there is this part:
John Withers, the director of WeBelieve, a new festival in England that aims to reach “seekers” as well as Catholics, said he has observed young men drawn to his parish after watching videos on YouTube that progressively interested them in the faith. They began with psychologist Jordan Peterson, then Bishop Barron, then more spiritual speakers such as Father Schmitz.
In France young women want to be Catholics. Given Francis' influence that is what you would normally expect.
In the UK it is young men. That makes no sense until you look into the type of people who are becoming Catholics in the US (JD Vance being the prime example). Then it starts to make a lot more sense.
They don't actually show any statistics for the number of men getting baptised in the UK, it just says "many of these new entrants are young men" with no numbers. And then makes a stratospheric leap to American influencers with absolutely no proof presented. Bandwagon jumping influencer speculation. All based on anecdotal evidence from one Mr Nash "Mark Nash, Southwark’s director of the Agency for Evangelization and Catechesis. “The Holy Spirit is moving in a very particular way.” "
Why is Mr Nash any more credible than me when reporting on what I see? The Southwalk situation is more likely to be profiting from the male refugee asylum seeker phenomonen noted in on of the articles I linked - If I were an asylum seeker in south London I reckon getting baptised and renouncing Islam is the first thing I'd do to improve my case..
The Interweb really is a poisonous cess pit.
They don't actually show any statistics for the number of men getting baptised in the UK, it just says "many of these new entrants are young men" with no numbers. And then makes a stratospheric leap to American influencers with absolutely no proof presented. Bandwagon jumping influencer speculation. All based on anecdotal evidence from one Mr Nash "Mark Nash, Southwark’s director of the Agency for Evangelization and Catechesis. “The Holy Spirit is moving in a very particular way.” "
Why is Mr Nash any more credible than me when reporting on what I see? The Southwalk situation is more likely to be profiting from the male refugee asylum seeker phenomonen noted in on of the articles I linked - If I were an asylum seeker in south London I reckon getting baptised and renouncing Islam is the first thing I'd do to improve my case..
The Interweb really is a poisonous cess pit.
So, your answer to all the articles I've linked over the last three pages is 'FAKE NEWS!'
I've linked Guardian articles, Vox articles, and now I've even linked Catholic News Agency articles. All of which support the idea that more young men are interested in Catholicism in the UK and the US than young women.
The opposite of what is seen in France which is following the pattern we would expect.
I'm not even saying this is definitive proof of anything. However, there are multiple concerning indications of where the popularity of 'traditional' religion is coming from amongst young men in the US and possibly in the UK. I would say it's worth further looking into and keeping an eye on in the future.
If you don't want to do that because you don't like the possibility there might be some truth to it then OK. However, doing a Donald Trump impression when presented with things you don't like is never a good look.
So, your answer to all the articles I've linked over the last three pages is 'FAKE NEWS!'
I didn't say that, you're putting words in my mouth. Read what I did say. Putting words in people's mouths is one of the things I'd include in the Internet cess pit.
More young men than before they say, when one of your sources says about 3% before, that gives plenty of scope for more without Gen Z men suddenly being double the number of Gen Z women in congregations. I want stats and numbers, Bruce, and not just from Southwalk, I want the full national picture. And in all honesty the Guardian (one of my favourite newspapers) has sometimes been guilty of publishing absolute shite and you know it. Pretty much anything by Adrian Chiles for example. 🙂
However, doing a Donald Trump impression when presented with things you don't like is never a good look.
This is plain gratuitous insult. Minable.
So, your answer to all the articles I've linked over the last three pages is 'FAKE NEWS!'
I've linked Guardian articles, Vox articles, and now I've even linked Catholic News Agency articles. All of which support the idea that more young men are interested in Catholicism in the UK and the US than young women.
...and none of which present any plausible data for attendance, let alone the positive impact of manfluencers on attendance. They rely heavily on vibes and speculation.
When astonishing and anomalous claims are made without good data, it's a good possibility - maybe a probability - that they're nonsense.
So, you won't believe the possibility of any of this being true until I commission multiple yougov polls? Because what we are talking about here is indications, possibilities, and a small amount of evidence spread across continents.
I'm sorry, I just don't think I personally have the resources to make you even begin to think this might have the tiniest shred of truth to it.
Oh well.
Until the multi year research projects are carried out, here is a compilation of the greatest hits so far. I don't think I have the energy to continue trawling the internet to get the barest hint of acknowledgement so I might just leave it at this unless someone finds some so far uncovered evidence that proves anything:
The Guardian article that kicked off all this fun
Gen Z men and women show worrying split on attitudes to gender and feminism
French Catholicism enjoys an increase in popularity within expected demographic norms
And finally, (mostly) US women on their experiences dating newly converted Catholic men
In France young women want to be Catholics. Given Francis' influence that is what you would normally expect.
In the UK it is young men. That makes no sense until you look into the type of people who are becoming Catholics in the US (JD Vance being the prime example). Then it starts to make a lot more sense.
Eh, what, so it's an Anglo-Saxon thing now? Why isn't it also young men in France?
Btw I love the way you repeatedly use a middle-aged American as a "prime" example of young men in the UK ! 🤣
What's wrong with our middle-aged politicians who converted to Catholicism?!?!
Please do leave it at that, Bruce. 😉
It wasn't the Guardian article that kicked it all off it was a Bible society article which was based on a Bible society commissioned survey conducted by YouGov that some journalist wrote about without putting her critical thinking cap on.
1/ Did you respond to the survey? I certainly didn't, not many people did. So you have a tiny sample of people motivated enough to respond to the survey, and this whole sorry tale is based on their responses.
2/ 21% of men who responded (we don't know the proportions of men and women who even responded, it's not stated) said they went to church once a month. Those men clearly aren't representative of the population, a population in which around 2-3% of the population go to church. All we know about them is that they replied, we have no idea what motivated them to reply. Note that YouGov polls are often promoted on STW when cyclists' interests are at stake.
That's the basis of it, and anyone who have ever been involved in stats or surveys will tell you the thing is meaningless and could be spun anyway the Bible society chose (not exactly impartial). It's not ifop or some reputable polling organisation being as random as possible, it's a YouGov survey replied to by a few people with an interest in the subject.
Eh, what, so it's an Anglo-Saxon thing now? Why isn't it also young men in France?
Btw I love the way you repeatedly use a middle-aged American as a "prime" example of young men in the UK ! 🤣
What's wrong with our middle-aged politicians who converted to Catholicism?!?!
OK. Last attempt. I promise.
It's a tale as old as time.
- Americans culturally appropriate a European institution (Catholicism)
- They then bastardise it and corrupt it until it's barely recognisable (honestly, it wasn't in the best of shapes to begin with but at least Francis was trying to repair it)
- They then repackage it and re-import it to the UK through social media. And most likely with the backing of their various special interest groups
- We eventually end up with a version of Catholicism that is closer to the bastardised American version than whatever Francis was trying to do
And the UK continues to be inbred cousin of the US forever after.
The end.
The young men demographic shift is an indication that this might be what is happening, especially when compared to the increase in popularity seen in France which follows the trends you would normally expect to see.
I really don't think I can put it any more simply, ernie. If you choose to continue not understanding what I am saying I really can't think of a way to make it any clearer.
The only other thing I can suggest is you actually read all the links I posted above rather than going off vibes. All circumstantial evidence, yes, but when what you have is a suspicion of what is happening I'm afraid circumstantial evidence is all that is really available.
Americans culturally appropriate a European institution (Catholicism)
No they haven't, what on earth are you on about? Americans have not "culturally appropriated" Catholicism, there has never even been an American Pope ffs.
And the Catholic Church is a global institution, the overwhelming majority of Catholics aren't even Europeans.
If what you are claiming was even vaguely true Jorge Bergoglio would most certainly not have become Pope.
I think some people might not have fully grasped what an anathema Pope Francis was to global conservativism. Beyond what he is widely known for, the voice he gave to peace, social justice, refugees, the marginalised, the environment, etc, and the things he did like phoning the Catholic Church in Gaza every single day, even when he was ill in hospital, here is an example of just how far his core beliefs went.
Oscar Romero of El Salvador famously said :
'Profound religion leads to political commitment, and in a country such as ours where injustice reigns, conflict is inevitable.… Christians have no fear of combat; they know how to fight but they prefer to speak the language of peace. Nevertheless, when a dictatorship violates human rights and attacks the common good of the nation, when it becomes unbearable and closes all channels of dialogue, of understanding, of rationality: when this happens, the Church speaks of the legitimate right of insurrectional violence.’
Oscar Romero also said :
‘The cause of all our ills is the oligarchy – that handful of families who care nothing for the hunger of the people but need that hunger in order to have cheap, abundant labour to raise and export their crops.’
Pretty far-left stuff eh? Well Pope Francis didn't simply defend Oscar Romero's right to say those things, he went much much further, he declared him a saint.
So a man who denounces American government-backed oligarchy, is murdered by an American government-backed death squad, is declared a saint by Pope Francis, but you want to claim that Catholicism has been culturally appropriated by Americans?
You managed to write all that and still didn't manage to read the links?
I managed to read what you wrote, and that's what I responded to :
Americans culturally appropriate a European institution (Catholicism)
If your links back up that claim I frankly couldn't give a monkeys, it's still nonsense ! 😂
Edit : Btw Oscar Romero is something of a hero of mine, in fact at one time I actually considered using his name as my username on here, before I settled on the name of perhaps an even bigger hero of mine, so I welcome the opportunity you gave me to quote him 😉
Here's another quote from Oscar Romero for you :
"Peace is not the product of terror or fear. Peace is not the silence of cemeteries. Peace is not the silent result of violent repression. Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all"
If your links back up that claim I frankly couldn't give a monkeys, it's still nonsense ! 😂
OK then.
Good talk.
what we are talking about here is indications, possibilities, and a small amount of evidence spread across continents.
agreed! It's a pretty threadbare basis on which to base a dramatic conclusion about religiosity of the youth (and young men in particular) in the UK.
In troubled times like these, when one might question ones faith, I like to refer to this song, to provide divine strength:
(warning NSFW)
Ozzy for pope!
OZZY!
OZZY!
have we concluded how many angels can dance on the head of a pin yet?
have we concluded how many angels can dance on the head of a pin yet?
Zero! Unless you are a religious nut job, I guess, in which case...
[insert preference for your favourite number here]
Should have said 666 angels, now you mention it.
42? The answer to everything?
42? The answer to everything?
Zero! Unless you are a religious nut job, I guess, in which case
Depends on the flavour of nutjob. Some are rather opposed to sex since it risks leading to dancing so will be voting for zero as well.
That was quicker than expected…
Well here's some plausible reasons why Catholic Church attendance among Gen Z might have increased
For the 63rd time, the issue is not that Gen Z is attracted to the Catholic Church. As most of us agree, Francis seemed to be going out of his way to speak to issues that progressive young people are concerned about. Although to be clear, I don't think he was doing it just to increase the church's appeal, more just because he thought it was the right thing to do.
The issue that the many links that have been provided illustrate is that there is a disconnect between the way the church is growing in Europe and the way the church is growing in the US. The danger is that in the UK young men are being influenced by the US style of Catholicism rather than the European one.
I know you refuse to read links but here is yet another couple:
https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/the-rise-of-religious-young-men
Pundits point to various social trends. In the recent presidential election, young men rejected Kamala Harris’ fuzzy, feminine message — opting for Trump’s manly message. Many young men find Jordan Peterson’s solid, intellectual, commonsense worldview an attractive antidote to the wild world of woke ideologies. Within the specifically religious communities, local men’s groups, conferences, retreats and books on modern masculinity have flourished over the last few decades, and their influence now seems to be bearing fruit.
Their influence has grown as a rebound from decades of a cultural crisis in masculinity. The sexual revolution, with its ugly sisters feminism and homosexualism, has undermined masculine confidence. Accused of “toxic masculinity” and pressured to become “metrosexual,” many young men have felt marginalized and stigmatized merely for being male.
Across the U.S., the Catholic Church is undergoing an immense shift. Generations of Catholics who embraced the modernizing tide sparked in the 1960s by Vatican II are increasingly giving way to religious conservatives who believe the church has been twisted by change, with the promise of eternal salvation replaced by guitar Masses, parish food pantries and casual indifference to church doctrine.
The shift, molded by plummeting church attendance, increasingly traditional priests and growing numbers of young Catholics searching for more orthodoxy, has reshaped parishes across the country, leaving them sometimes at odds with Pope Francis and much of the Catholic world.
No matter how much you might not wish to even consider it a possibility, it's becoming clear there is a disconnect between the US and Europe when it comes to the Catholic Church. The fact that in the UK it seems to be young men rather than young women (who are making up the majority of converts/reverts in Europe) who are attracted to the church suggests that the US influence might be holding more sway than the European influence.
The only piece of real data in the National Catholic Register is this: "Among 18- to 25-year-olds, 49 percent of women are nones, compared to just 46 percent of men.” A 3% difference in one age group for all Americans (not just Catholics) doesn't seem much to get agitated about.
The rest of the piece is polemic and vibes - which is fair enough as it's a comment piece.
There's some hard data, lots of anecdotes, and plenty of opinions.
Outside of this thread, I've not seen anyone disputing the fact that in the US more young men are converting/reverting to the Catholic Church than young women.
Outside this thread I've not seen anyone disputing the figures from the UK either although not nearly as many people have been writing about this over the last few years in the same way they have about the US.
Can we at least accept the figures from France saying that amongst the upsurge in adult baptisms, 63% of them are women? And that this is in line with what we would call 'normal' church attendance?
Anyway, here is Pope Francis' opinion about the church in the US. Unfortunately he doesn't use any data at all.
https://www.usccb.org/news/2023/pope-says-there-strong-reactionary-element-us-catholic-church
For the 63rd time, the issue is not that Gen Z is attracted to the Catholic Church.
Sorry I didn't think that you actually owned this thread. I posted a link to what I thought was an interesting article with regards to the subject of this thread, the late Pope Francis.
It wasn't in anyway in response to your comments and much more in connection to mefty's earlier remark concerning the recent increases in church attendance.
Calm down ffs, for someone who earlier inexplicably accused me of being defensive you are remarkably touchy and defensive.
What you said was "Well here's some plausible reasons why Catholic Church attendance among Gen Z might have increased"
Pray tell, what are the implausible reasons? Something other than what we have been discussing? If so maybe you should specify which implausible reasons you're thinking of so as to avoid confusion.
Anyway, this seems relevant and was published as I was typing the earlier comment:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/28/maga-catholics-vatican-pope-conclave
@ernielynch and @brucewee - can you stop every reply being about a dig to the other. It's pathetic, frankly, and really tedious for the rest of us (well, me, anyway) who are interested in the issues, but don't need you two slinging your handbags at each other all the time.
Ta.
What you said was "Well here's some plausible reasons why Catholic Church attendance among Gen Z might have increased"
Pray tell, what are the implausible reasons?
Blimey, you really like going round in circles, dontcha?
I am fully aware of what I said, obviously. To repeat, yet again, I had no idea of the increases in church attendance in recent years until mefty mentioned it a few days ago on this thread.
It is fair to say that I was extremely surprised. My initial reaction was the one which you might have expected...."Gosh, I wonder why that is?"
In the article linked above they discuss what to me sounds like plausible reasons for this, certainly with regards to the Catholic Church, and since it is connected to Pope Francis I thought it would be appropriate for this thread.
Did you want me to also provide some implausible reasons? Or are you simply annoyed that I posted the link about Gen Z's views on Pope Francis and just expect me to apologise?
@ernielynch and @brucewee - can you stop every reply being about a dig to the other. It's pathetic, frankly, and really tedious for the rest of us (well, me, anyway) who are interested in the issues, but don't need you two slinging your handbags at each other all the time.
Ta.
You know how to can see who last posted, how about not clicking if you aren't interested? There's loads of threads that I don't click on because I'm not interested.
But don't let that stop you from making a comment about Pope Francis 💡