[Closed] The people of England are angry- revolution/riots on way ?!?

ChrisL has a kinder theory than mine for conspiracy theories, he says they're basically an attempt to make sense of a confusing world. In the case of tragedies in particular it can give reason to unfairness or randomness.

Me, I'm a less nice person, so I think it's pretty simple. Knowing things is nice- specifically, knowing things that other people don't know. For some of us it's about being asked things, and being able to strut your stuff. For others, it increases their sense of importance, or cements a professional position. And for some, it gives some people a sense of superiority - "imagine you not knowing that". Whatever the reason, knowing stuff is satisfying.

But knowing stuff is hard, and knowing stuff that not many people know is either very hard, or means knowing stuff about things most people just don't care about. I was, frinstance, one of the most knowledgable people in the world on the subject of BACS payments, nobody gives a ****

So, if you want to know something novel, in a field that people actually care about, you've either got to be very good, or you've got to make it up.

Northwind, amen to that.

As a structural engineer I find the 911 conspiracy theories about the twin towers hard to stomach. I know we're meant to disregard expert opinion but when people spout basic shite it kind makes the rest of their argument look pretty weak.

Castles made of sand...

If the Corbyn-led Labour Party are elected to power in the next round, which looks likely sooner rather than later, the "right" and it's supporters will have no-one to blame but themselves.

With what is being laid bare about the state of the UK's social drift in the aftermath of Grenfell, disgust and revenge are likely to be the main motivators, especially amongst the resurgent youth vote.

It will serve them right (no pun intended), IMO.

The surprise is that it takes people so long to realise under each tory government that the government is not working for the majority of peoples well being or standard of life.
People are sold the idea that the tories will somehow manage stuff better and they will be better as a result while all that happens is the people at the top just get ever more elevated.

I think Corbyn's use of the 95% versus the 5% was a very good and simple way of showing it and making people think about it rather than the previous Labour leaders silence on the issue.

What we are seeing over last year or so is that people are working it out sooner that they have done in the past and the young are actually starting to realise they can do something about it.

and the young are actually starting to realise they can do something about it.

Until they grow up. Then get a job. Then think 'labour wanting to give all my hard earned money to the sponging layabouts? No thanks' Then they become tory voters.

to whoever said my colleague was joking, you were not there, do not know my colleague,...i was...she wasn't joking. Like her,..go keep eating your grass.

I planted her there she's part of a secret government team to convert those that know the truth into believing 911 was a terrorist attack.

I think Corbyn's use of the 95% versus the 5% was a very good and simple way of showing it and making people think about it rather than the previous Labour leaders silence on the issue.

But as a realist I understand that without the tax receipts of the 5% you mention, the country would be in a dire economic mess as I don't see how you would fund all of the wonderful policies that you have sold to the masses without massive public borrowing.

And? Is this the gun to the head, we'll take our money abroad if you tax us argument again?

Plus the fact that a lot of that 5% can use a part of their income to engage expensive tax consultants to avoid paying what they (nominally) should.

This sudden appetite for socialism makes me chuckle.

It's hardly surprising. After the last 18 months lurch to the right (me, me, me) people have got what they 'wanted' (Brexit, Trump etc) and are now thinking "oh shit, I didn't actually think that would happen, and just look at these assholes".

The world would be a much better place if people could make their bloody minds up.

Larry Silverstein the guy who made billions on the insurance regards 9/11 ...admitted that they 'pulled it' (Building 7)

Link? Otherwise it's a story you heard in the pub...

And? Is this the gun to the head, we'll take our money abroad if you tax us argument again?

Plus the fact that a lot of that 5% can use a part of their income to engage expensive tax consultants to avoid paying what they (nominally) should.

For example, do you think it's fair that someone earning 100 - 120k / year who I add is paying 6k/year for a rail season ticket is paying a notional 60% tax rate on that 20k?

I was really interested to see the celebs who came out to support Labour. Did they make their personal tax affairs available for public viewing?

The world would be a much better place if people could make their bloody minds up.

The pendulum is just swinging faster. We sort-of function in the centre and always fail at the edges. With social media and evolving world-events the pace of politics is dizzying.

Add to this the soporific (as opposed to enlightening) effect of the ****tersphere and you'll find that the only 'revolution' we've had in very recent times has been the smoking 'Kipper that was eagerly snapped in the confessional/voting-booth by our now smugly xenophobic and perma-fearful Baby-Boomer parents. Well that and Trump. See again the ****tersphere.

Link? Otherwise it's a story you heard in the pub...

There's the clip (or 100) on youtube where he says that the burning building was in danger of collapse so 'we pulled it'.

Of course there is no clear context. Did he mean 'pulled it/pulled out', did he mean 'we' ie 'collective discussion with owner and the fire crew'. I certainly don't believe that they rigged the building with explosives and then set it on fire to later destroy it at the behest of the Evil Jewlordz TM. So it would seem that they pulled out the fire crew and let it fall. I know, crazy right? One thing is for sure, that day changed (and continues to change) all of our lives because of the opportunism of Bush and Blair. I wonder if 3000 people had died in a terrorist attack in ****stan if the world would have changed? Problem for conspiracy theorists is they always neglect to factor in opportunism.

For example, do you think it's fair that someone earning 100 - 120k / year who I add is paying 6k/year for a rail season ticket is paying a notional 60% tax rate on that 20k?

Yes, unequivocally. The rail season ticket is optional, but I presume we are talking about it being intrinsic to the ability to command the salary in the first place by commuting into London. This person would have to view their situation in the round, and probably will have done.

I find it very odd that a handful of people in a company can earn 10+ times more than the average employee. Do they work more than ten times the hours? Do ten times as good a job? Some undoubtedly will contribute more profit to the business, but a lot won't.

It is the obscene multiples at the top that piss people off as it really is a glass ceiling.

For example, do you think it's fair that someone earning 100 - 120k / year who I add is paying 6k/year for a rail season ticket is paying a notional 60% tax rate on earnings over 100k?

on earnings over 100k?

I'm pretty peeved by it all, frankly.

Sorry.

No need to be sorry. Above a certain amount it is just not [u]necessary[/u].

Then it really is summed up by this:

Of course there is no clear context

Indeed.

So, it seems quite apparent that it's unclear quite exactly what was meant.....& so the flat-earthers jump to the most bonkers one. Makes sense..

Anyway, the sunshine is free, so enjoy it safe in the knowledge that there are a few things that being [i]vastly wealthy darling[/i] cannot influence.

I think it's completely fair. Nobody needs an income of that level, making it entirely a luxury.

So you're saying we should start paying headmasters, doctors and hospital consultants less?

Could be a good solution, we would'nt need austerity if we capped public sector wages as 100k would we?

So you're saying we should start paying headmasters, doctors and hospital consultants less?

Nope, we should be taxing them more. Realise that giving money from public funds and then taking more back in tax is same as not giving as much but we are competing with private sector salaries so the solution is to tax all.

What T5 awning for the revolution? will there be electrical hook up? I can't fit my woodburner in the van.

ntil they grow up. Then get a job. Then think 'labour wanting to give all my hard earned money to the sponging layabouts? No thanks' Then they become tory voters.

That age is shifting in latest data to around 50 years old. So the selfishness and ability to forget what it was like when they were young is at least shifting in the correct direction.

It also doesn't shift for everyone, I have remained left wing my entire life and having more money has not changed by outlook in a single way.

we would'nt need austerity if we capped public sector wages as 100k would we?

Thing is Capitalism is automatically self balancing. RISK vs REWARD.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 a year and makes 39 pence profit, your reward will, necessarily be limited.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 Billion a year and makes £390 Million profit, your reward will, necessarily be rather higher.

People who get results get rewarded. People who sit on their fat lazy asses all day watching Bargain Hunters get nothing.

So here's my advice: It makes NO DIFFERENCE which political party you support, because they are not the ones driving our country!

Far, far, far better to get off your ass, find something you enjoy doing, work hard at doing that, and make YOUR life better YOURSELF! There are plenty of self made millionaires, people who despite not having an a amazing schooling or background have worked hard, and made themselves. The problem, is that it's much easier to just sit back and moan, rather than get up, get out, and do something about it............

maxtorque - Member
Thing is Capitalism is automatically self balancing. RISK vs REWARD.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 a year and makes 39 pence profit, your reward will, necessarily be limited.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 Billion a year and makes £390 Million profit, your reward will, necessarily be rather higher.

People who get results get rewarded. People who sit on their fat lazy asses all day watching Bargain Hunters get nothing.

So here's my advice: It makes NO DIFFERENCE which political party you support, because they are not the ones driving our country!

Far, far, far better to get off your ass, find something you enjoy doing, work hard at doing that, and make YOUR life better YOURSELF! There are plenty of self made millionaires, people who despite not having an a amazing schooling or background have worked hard, and made themselves. The problem, is that it's much easier to just sit back and moan, rather than get up, get out, and do something about it............

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

The Money's Mine.

Can't buy you love, though. Love.

maxtorque - Member
Thing is Capitalism is automatically self balancing. RISK vs REWARD.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 a year and makes 39 pence profit, your reward will, necessarily be limited.

If you are the manager of a company that turns over £10.72 Billion a year and makes £390 Million profit, your reward will, necessarily be rather higher.

People who get results get rewarded. People who sit on their fat lazy asses all day watching Bargain Hunters get nothing.

So here's my advice: It makes NO DIFFERENCE which political party you support, because they are not the ones driving our country!

Far, far, far better to get off your ass, find something you enjoy doing, work hard at doing that, and make YOUR life better YOURSELF! There are plenty of self made millionaires, people who despite not having an a amazing schooling or background have worked hard, and made themselves. The problem, is that it's much easier to just sit back and moan, rather than get up, get out, and do something about it............

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

The implication being that if you are not fabulously well-off you simply aren't trying hard enough. Nice.

Also, I presume all these self-made millionaires have built their own roads to get to work. They employ their own police force to protect them when someone tries to nick their wealth? They have their own self-funded fire station for the possibility that their mansion may catch fire?

Society organized along the lines of frontier towns during a gold rush - sounds ace.

My analogy for this kind of capitalism is a busy motorway. Most people are doing 55 stay alive. Leaving a reasonable gap and partly ensuring everyone else's safety at the same time as their own. Then along comes your self-made man. He doesn't break any laws because he can't do more than seventy anyway, but he can gain five minutes on that 90 minute journey by weaving in and out, undertaking, and generally being a bit of a ****. Most of the time he gets away with it. Most of the time he just gets the odd hand gesture, and that makes him feel good, because the losers who stay in lane and contribute to everyone else's safety are just jealous of his masculinity.

The one day he causes a massive pile-up, or more likely he collides with another of his ilk and causes a massive pile-up.

its the myth of capitalism

for every single winner there has to be million - possibly even billions- of losers

the idea that they all worked hard - hits impossible to work hard enough to be worth billions- or that the majority dont inherit it is also not true

IME the hardest jobs i ever did were also the lowest paid jobs I ever did

There are plenty of self made millionaires

Are you suggesting if we all just worked hard enough every single person on the planet could be one?

The 'everyone can be a millionaire if they try hard enough' myth is also made more difficult to achieve when the first thing a lot of millionaires do when they get a million quid is take every possible action in their power to get another million quid - usually by preventing other people from getting a slice of the action.

Have a quick read up on the South African diamond and gold fields and Cecil Rhodes, De Beers, Wernher Beit et al if you want to see how unregulated capitalism really works.

One thing it most certainly isn't is morally defensible.

oldtalent - Member

Until they grow up. Then get a job. Then think 'labour wanting to give all my hard earned money to the sponging layabouts? No thanks' Then they become tory voters.

Ah, you're unaware that in the last election, all demographic groups under 50 voted mostly Labour? And the only groups that voted majority tory were 60+? All those 47 year olds who need to grow up and get a job. (because that's where the crossover is that you're more likely to vote Tory. Not 20, not 30, 47.)

People who get results get rewarded

Hah. Footsoldiers get results, they generally get paid a fraction of the generals. Getting results doesn't get you rewarded, claiming credit gets you rewarded. "Taking risks" is fine but the people taking the risks generally aren't those who lose out. Bankers taking risks with other people's money, developers taking risks with cheaper materials, politicians taking risks with the economy. When a company goes out of business the people who get laid off weren't taking the risks.

But this is completely beside the point- there will always be winners and losers. You can, to some limited extent, change your own personal odds but that doesn't reduce the number of losers, it just means you win (to some extent) and someone else loses. It is impossible for everyone to lift themselves up. This is the equivalent of saying "get a job" to everyone, when there's 5% unemployment. All individuals can hope to change is who is unemployed.

Me, I'm doing OK, so when I get angry it's not because I sit on my ass and expect better or because I expect someone else to pay my way- it's because some other poor bastard just died in a fire, or because some other poor bastard got sanctioned for no good reason and can't feed their kids til the 12 week long appeal process decides they shouldn't have been sanctioned in the first place, or because some poor bastard lost their job after 40 years because some brave risk taker did something stupid then retired.

but be fair they worked so much harder than those bloody miners who just sat on their arses eh ...that why they were poor eh

Me, I'm doing OK, so when I get angry it's not because I sit on my ass and expect better- it's because some other poor bastard just died in a fire.

This +1.

It is offensive the automatic assumption the likes of the Daily Heil try to peddle is that any protest is populated by lazy ne'er-do-wells who are motivated by jealousy and just want the opportunity to loot a widescreen tv.

What the Heil and their ilk fear the most is compassion and solidarity that is based on anything other than wealth generation and retention. That is 'dangerous' in their eyes.

Northwind

Me, I'm doing OK, so when I get angry it's not because I sit on my ass and expect better or because I expect someone else to pay my way- it's because some other poor bastard just died in a fire, or because some other poor bastard got sanctioned for no good reason and can't feed their kids til the 12 week long appeal process decides they shouldn't have been sanctioned in the first place, or because some poor bastard lost their job after 40 years because some brave risk taker did something stupid then retired.

And how much of your money have you given to those 'poor' people to help them out?

We have no idea, if under an X, Y or Z Government that the Grenfell Tower disaster would have occurred. In fact, we simply do not at this time, and probably cannot ever with certainty, know the effect of a single decision made years ago. (chaos theory is the driving force in or complex world).

So perhaps Labour would have made sprinklers mandatory, and London's Councils would have spent their money on sprinklers instead of say, air quality improvements, and overall in fact, more people would have died (but not in a single, "oooh wasn't that terrible, look at the pictures" kind of way that modern society so likes to crow on about....

My point stands. if YOU want a better life, get out and grab it. It's yours for the taking.

maxtorque - Member

My point stands. if YOU want a better life, get out and grab it. It's yours for the taking.

Aye, it's so easy, and everyone in that tower just hadn't bothered.

Oh no wait. Khadija Saye, an artist who was currently having work shown internationally. Mohammad Alhajali, a refugee, studying engineering at the University of London died, his brother- also a refugee, studying business, survived. Gloria Trevisan and Marco Gottardi, architecture graduates who moved to London to seek work in their profession, none of these were doing anything for a better life. And those who had- Sabah Abdullah, a retired college lecturer, survived but his wife is presumed dead. Ali Yawar Jafari, 82, presumably should have gone out and got a job.

Isaac Shawo, currently missing, hadn't done anything to get out and grab a better life but then, he was only five. Malek Belkadi was 10, his little sister 6 months old, Mehdi el-Wahabi 8, Firdaws Jemal, 12, Yahya Jemal, 13, Yaqub Jemal, 6, Jessica Urbano, 12, Biruk Haftom, 12.

(some of these are missing rather than confirmed dead, we can only hope they are found)

In conclusion, you disgust me.

Tbf I didn't really get that from maxtorque's post. Did he imply any of that Northwind?
Not trying to start an argument it just seemed a bit harsh imo

When did i say it was easy?

You can't take individual cases in an average statement.

Yesterday, i bet a nurse, or doctor, or charity worker, or similar person who devotes there life to the betterment of others was killed in some accident. I mean, why them and why not some rapist or arsonist (if we being controversial!)

The fact is this; LIFE ISN'T FAIR. It's never been fair, it never will be.

Which is why it comes back to, on AVERAGE, if you want to make your life better, from where ever it is now, it's YOUR responsibility to do that above everything else.

Every time you moan about something, instead, use the time to better yourself, to make some new contacts, to learn something, to engage in conversation, etc etc. Those are the things that pay off, the things that "make you lucky". Whilst chance is random, luck isn't.

And yup, unfortunately some of those people making their life better WILL be killed whilst doing so, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

The fact is this; LIFE ISN'T FAIR. It's never been fair, it never will be

What exactly is wrong for that

as for the try hard and you will suceeed its both true and false as lot depends on other factors

Plenty of folk work long hours in shitty low paid jobs and are not shirkers. however they lacked the talent to succeed - they are not all lazy

To use bikes it like having a bike ride and assuming all those who dont win are lazy and did not try and its their fault . Its sort of true - winners will work hard but it ignores the fact we all had natural talent and luck - the luck in the bike ride comes in that you are given a bike which can vary from a penny farthing to pone with punctures to the latest road bikes and then still deciding the winner tried the hardest and then defending it y saying life is not fair.

Essentially I think we all agree we should all contribute equally the issues is do you think we should all be rewarded equally and if we were do you think more people would contribute?

I suspect there would be a lot less unemployed if all wages were 40 k for example. Its not just about working for your reward its about the reward being worth working for.

I like the use of capitals here. It's really helping.

maxtorque - Member

When did i say it was easy?

"if YOU want a better life, get out and grab it. It's yours for the taking" - so if you don't get a better life, it's because you didn't grab it, all you had to do was take it.

"Capitalism is automatically self balancing"- so if you don't have a better life, it must be your fault

"People who sit on their fat lazy asses all day watching Bargain Hunters get nothing."

"get off your ass"

"It's much easier to just sit back and moan, rather than get up, get out, and do something about it..."

Apparently sometimes you dont have to work very hard to get results 😉

Maxtorque--funny guy , i've noticed all those budding millionaires working two , three jobs , to make ends meet , zero hours , bogus self employment , agencies/ pimps , and offf the back of all this endeavour are a small number getting very rich due to contacts, rigged markets , and inherited wealth providing the foundation to make more , that's capitalism for ya , like the lottery , few winners but many many more losers , and you max are in the small camp

9/11 reality is the real drama.

Do try and stick with it.

I get the impression that most of the people on here are just suffering from the dreaded envy. I used to do the IT trading systems for traders in London who made a fortune. Was I bitter and twisted. Of course not, they made there path in life and I made mine. Just the way it goes.

The old "if I cannot have it why should they" mentality stinks.

😆

Go on....pull the other one - it's got bells on it!

If you're going to troll you need to learn be just a little bit more subtle.....2/10 & I reckon that's being generous...

The funny thing here is that I am not trolling and just giving my observation based on what I have read. All the talk about taxing everyone more and not paying Doctors ... more than a 100k.

Great in theory, but I'd predict a brain drain.