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Whatever, another of the positives of the Olympics is the ethnic diversity of team GB and the clear pride of the non-white GB medal winners succeeding for their nation.
Is it? Why does the diversity or ethnicity of the team matter. I’m sure every athlete who wins a gold medal is incredibly proud and their ethnicity irrelevant
Is it? Why does the diversity or ethnicity of the team matter. I’m sure every athlete who wins a gold medal is incredibly proud and their ethnicity irrelevant
Could I suggest you look at what I wrote, rather than the selective quote you have requoted....may help you appreciate the point I was actually making.
I know we've disagreed on other posts Jon, but I'm unequivocally with you 100% on this. I don't have any personal skin in this discussion but I have plenty of friends who do. Please don't stop posting on these subjects, your voice is invaluable.
I just don't... fundamentally I don't understand why we can't just leave people alone. Alright, sports is awkward, that was always going to be challenging when by its very nature we're testing human achievement against other humans; but beyond that... 🤷♂️ why not just let people exist? It's harming precisely no-one. It's not about to be made mandatory. "Daniella" lives around the corner from me, she's six foot tall and built like a prop forward, to the casual observer she is "obviously" a bloke in a dress with a bit of lippie but... well, so ****ing what? She's ace. Safe spaces are still safe and hey guess what, trans people need safe spaces too and probably more so than these women some quarters are vociferously white knighting. I can count the number of "bloke in a dress" menaces in the real world on the fingers of one foot, it just doesn't happen.(*) Outside of sporting this is an absolute non-event fictitious manufactured drama for everyone bar those directly affected.
Like, I'm vegetarian, which is a trivial thing in the grand scheme of things. Yet the number of times I've been pounced on when people have discovered this is unbelievable. I don't eat meat and... well, that's it. "But whyyyyyyy..." because I don't want to. "Oh, I could never do that..." well, I didn't ask you to, here's 20p, go phone someone who cares. Depth perception, evolution of teeth, and on and on it goes, relentlessly, when the fact of the matter is that I just want to have my lunch in peace without having to justify it to yet another carnivore who immediately interprets my own choices as a personal attack. How often have we heard "preachy vegan"? I'd wager that most of those preachy vegans are simply tired of everyone else giving them grief unsolicited. So I can only begin to imagine the degree of ****wittery and shitbaggery one must face constantly, daily, when you cross out "diet" and write words like "sexuality" or "gender." Have you ever considered not being a boy? Well **** me Sherlock, that never crossed my mind.
(* - I don't doubt that if we googled hard enough we could find an example in order to win Internet Points but even then it'd be a vanishingly rare outlier)
Is it? Why does the diversity or ethnicity of the team matter. I’m sure every athlete who wins a gold medal is incredibly proud and their ethnicity irrelevant
You don't suppose that some people might be there despite their background?
I can count the number of "bloke in a dress" menaces in the real world on the fingers of one foot, it just doesn't happen.(*) Outside of sporting this is an absolute non-event fictitious manufactured drama for everyone bar those directly affected.
A 2020 FOI request during the inquiry about reforming the Gender Recognition Act, showed that in 2019, 36 of the 129 trans women in UK prisons had been convicted or rape, with a further 10 or attempted rape. In all, 74 of the 129 had convictions for one or more sexual offences.
And in 2024, Nicholas Dakin reported in parliament that of the now higher 2024 total of 245 trans women prisoners, 151 had been convicted of a sexual offence.
The above are no doubt a tiny monitory of UK trans women, just as sex offenders are a tiny monitory of UK men overall, but there's no pretending it's "non-event fictitious manufactured drama".
Your hypothetical prop forward is probably lovely, but the solution for Daniella to be left alone is to afford other people the same courtesy. Don't try to muscle into women's sports, refuges and changing rooms, and don't claim to be a lesbian because that word simply doesn't include male people. Respect that other people have rights too, and the world will be a more accepting place.
Don't pretend to be a lesbian.... ?
Is it? Why does the diversity or ethnicity of the team matter. I’m sure every athlete who wins a gold medal is incredibly proud and their ethnicity irrelevant
You don't suppose that some people might be there despite their background?
I think that two or three of us replied, based on this quote:
Whatever, another of the positives of the Olympics is the ethnic diversity of team GB and the clear pride of the non-white GB medal winners succeeding for their nation.
I suggested that it was patronising. To expand, those athletes will have as much reverence for the flag, anthem and their nation as any other athlete regardless of the colour of their skins. For some it will be everything, for others it will be a complete irrelevance. I felt that the subtext of that quote is almost 'bless 'em, and they're not even really British' but I'm fairly certain that's not what Convert meant.
74 of the 129 had convictions for one or more sexual offences
Out of how many of the whole trans population? A quarter of a million? Taking the crimes of a tiny few and putting it on the shoulders of others with a shared characteristic… it’s a sign of something… call it what you want…
> same as above <
Is anyone in the thread trans tho
Unlikely. You’d avoid it, wouldn’t you?
My daughter’s partner is a trans women. Her rule no 1 is to avoid such discussions, life is too short. Her chosen sport is climbing by the way.
A 2020 FOI request during the inquiry about reforming the Gender Recognition Act, showed that in 2019, 36 of the 129 trans women in UK prisons had been convicted or rape, with a further 10 or attempted rape. In all, 74 of the 129 had convictions for one or more sexual offences.
As many as that in a population of 70 million? Wow.
That is, like, pardon my maths, one in a million is it not? As I said,
(* - I don't doubt that if we googled hard enough we could find an example in order to win Internet Points but even then it'd be a vanishingly rare outlier)
So QED, well done, thanks.
Meanwhile, 17% of ALL men incarcerated are banged up for sexual offences. That's about thirteen thousand.
Your hypothetical prop forward is probably lovely, but the solution for Daniella to be left alone is to afford other people the same courtesy.
She's not hypothetical, I can take a selfie next time I'm out if it'd help you square that particular circle.
Who is she not leaving alone? She's out having a pint with her girlfriend. 🤷♂️ I suppose it's possible that she could be a bit rapey but no more than anyone else in the room. I have, to date, shared a pub with her several times and am yet to be violated. Perhaps I'm just not pretty enough.
Respect that other people have rights too, and the world will be a more accepting place.
Eeeeeeexactly my point. You should follow your own advice.
Is anyone in the thread trans tho
No, we bullied them all off the forum a few years ago.
It's great to see that things have changed.
A 2020 FOI request during the inquiry about reforming the Gender Recognition Act, showed that in 2019, 36 of the 129 trans women in UK prisons had been convicted or rape, with a further 10 or attempted rape. In all, 74 of the 129 had convictions for one or more sexual offences.
As many as that in a population of 70 million? Wow.
That is, like, pardon my maths, one in a million is it not? As I said,
Or to put in another way a higher percentage than there are athletes who particiapted the Olympics, let alone those who are going to be affected by these test.
No, we bullied them all off the forum a few years ago.
For those of us who are new here or have a short memory, here's Rachel imploring to the forum and getting a kicking from a minority of ****, 7 years ago.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/off-topic/it-hurts-it-really-bloody-hurts/
Y'know, just in case your Dickhead Chip is still engaged and in your haste to get into bed with the likes of Linehan and Rowling because "wimmin!" you've lost sight of the fact that you're talking about actual people here.
Or to put in another way a higher percentage than there are athletes who particiapted the Olympics, let alone those who are going to be affected by these test.
How many trans athletes could you name? Is it more than "two"?
Whether you're talking about athletics or prison it's a tiny minority within a tiny minority. It's the sort of numbers that L'Oreal would be embarrassed to run.
And again. So what? You could probably draw a correlation between sex pest and people who like cheese. Because, y'know, people.
Bloody hell, how did we get so collectively dense.
It’s a mad world where a trans woman can rape a woman with her lady penis then get sent to a women’s prison. I’m not sure if this still happens, hopefully not.
As for “it’s harming precisely no-one” plenty of confused/depressed/gay/autistic children have been put on the “you’ve been born in the wrong body” path and been harmed with puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery. It’s fair enough if you believe this is the right path for some but to deny that children have been harmed is dishonest, go read some stories from de-transitioners and tell me they haven’t been harmed.
the bottom half of the Internet
Your autocorrect appears to have replaced "ignorant." Because
Shitty opinions can and should be challenged.
Y'know, just in case your Dickhead Chip is still engaged and in your haste to get into bed with the likes of Linehan and Rowling because "wimmin!" you've lost sight of the fact that you're talking about actual people here.
Bloody hell, how did we get so collectively dense.
Cougar, please could you chill TF out, posting like this doesn't help the thread, it just turns it from a discussion into an argument.
No flex, just wondering if this is a thread of people talking about stuff they aren't really actually familiar with in an intimate way.
Stories of those who de-transitioned... Yeah there's got to be some but there's a shit load of people who were really harmed by not being able to just do what they want with their body.
This is excellently illuminated by Philosophy Tube
Some of the posters here do sound a bit like they want to bring back the "are you looking at his Johnson" police in loos
Cougar, please could you chill TF out, posting like this doesn't help the thread, it just turns it from a discussion into an argument.
Well, thank goodness you're here to advance the discussion with a positive contribution then.
Perhaps rather than taking me to task you could respond to the bellend right above you? It'd save me a post.
The UK population is 69,860,000, and at the last census there were 262,000 trans people.
The prison population for sexual offences is 12,744, with 151 of them (2024 figures) trans women.
So the non-trans sex offender prison population is 0.018% of the overall non-trans UK population, and the trans sex offender prison population is 0.057% of the overall trans UK population. And if sex offenders make up 17% of overall male prison population as you say, then it doesn't look great if sex offenders make up 61% of the trans women prison population.
There's enough uncertainty that I'm sure the numbers are basically in line with each other, ie that men and trans women have comparable offending rates, but you need favourable data before you can even begin to claim that trans women should have access to women's spaces.
Personally I believe that it is not and won't ever be bigotry to deny the non-hypothetical Daniella access to women's spaces. I also believe that if you've got to a point where your understandable support of one minority has lead you mock women's single-sex sports, spaces and services, then it's inadvertently brought you to a place of misogyny.
It actually looks entirely bizarre to me, and accusations of white-knighting, bigotry or being right-wing are more bemusing than anything else. How do you get to the point where you believe women don't deserve their own things? Beats me. And the trans rights movement will be a lost and losing cause until it addresses this.
But we got to the same point on the last thread so I don't think anything will change this time.
How do you get to the point where you believe women don't deserve their own things?
How do you get to the point where you think trans-women should be excluded by default? What about trans-men? DSD people? Non-binary folk? How many do you know? What do you expect them to do in situations where society forces everyone into binary spaces? Unfortunately even the obvious sensible fixes to some of this (eg have open/mixed classes in some sports rather than men’s/boy’s classes, or providing gender neutral toilets) get pushed back on by the purists for whom it seems absolutely crucial that simple conformity to chromosomes must trump everything else (even in the rare cases when even the chromosomes don’t want to conform to their desire for an over simple and clear divide).
And if sex offenders make up 17% of overall male prison population as you say, then it doesn't look great if sex offenders make up 61% of the trans women prison population.
That’s just playing around with tiny unrepresentative numbers to try and make trans-women sound like more of a threat, if there were more trans-women committing more crimes in general that carry a prison sentence, then the ratio between sexoffence:otheroffence sentences would look different, less suspect (in the eyes of the beholder who see trans-women as a sexual threat to be confined in general, rather than dealing with criminals as criminals). Choosing stats to see a story already formed in your own mind.
Well,
So.
****ing.
What?
These are miniscule numbers and your argument is bigotry. You're trying to spin maths to back up your own prejudices. It won't wash. I don't need "favourable data" to know that my friends exist and aren't hanging around outside public toilets.
What you personally believe is an irrelevance. No-one is saying that women don't deserve "their own things," rather the thorny problem is that your beliefs don't cause my mate Andi to spontaneously unexist regardless of how uncomfortable that might make you. Grow up and deal with it, the trannies aren't coming for your children.
Why do you care? Whose battle are you fighting here exactly? Leave people alone to just be, it's not hard.
But we got to the same point on the last thread so I don't think anything will change this time.
Sadly, on this we probably agree.
If there was a long history of men putting on dresses in order to become stealth rapists then you might have a point. But there isn't, so you don't.
Personally I believe that it is not and won't ever be bigotry to deny the non-hypothetical Daniella access to women's spaces
To be brutally honest, I'm not entirely convinced that I'd be comfortable with her being in "women's spaces" either, if we assume that "women's spaces" are some form of crisis centre rather than just going for a shit. But again, these are vanishingly small numbers of people. I have no reason to doubt your quarter of a million figure, but do we throw a quarter of a million people under the bus for the actions of a hundred? If we take that approach then 'biological' men are ****ed because we're kicking that stat out of the park.
go read some stories from de-transitioners and tell me they haven’t been harmed.
I'd offer to get my son's friend to talk to you about the problems they suffered by being denied access to appropriate healthcare at a crucial time, but they can't. Because rather than continue they found the solution was to walk onto a railway track.
In the spirit of trying to inform. FWIW less than 10% of trans people detransition, and those that do, almost 2/3 do so not because they regret transitioning but because of side effects/lack of positive effect, lack of access and cost of medication and treatment, societal pressure, lack of available support, and so on. And yes, 1/3 decide it wasn't what they actually wanted. So maybe 2-3% overall detransition because it was 'a mistake' but yes, they do exist. And some will undoubtedly regret it, and may have undergone irreversible treatments, although most hormone therapies are actually reversible (in the spirit of transparency, we don't know enough about long term side effects because no-one can agree an appropriate study into it - the last one was blocked in Feb)
It's harder of course to estimate the numbers of people who don't transition for those same reasons but would prefer to.
I often ask myself whether I wish my son wasn't trans. And the answer is no, and yes.
I wouldn't have him any other way than he is and wants to be. He makes me proud every day because if we want our kids to be anything, we want them to be happy in themselves, and while that doesn't mean we don't have worries and times when things go badly, to be out there with all he faces just going around his normal life takes immense bravery.
And at the same time it would be a **** of a load easier if he wasn't, I cannot deny that.
Would I change what I've done. Yes, but only in the sense that I didn't support him enough when he needed it in the early days; tried to convince him it was a phase, all those bad things. I hope he doesn't hold it against me, but I made a lot of bad choices, and maybe that's what makes me so vehemently supportive now.
How do you get to the point where you think trans-women should be excluded by default?
Nobody is excluding them from anything - they can still compete against the rest of the biological males
I think some of you need to look at yourselves and try to be a little kinder. The people who decide to transition are not obvious and some would suprise you.
Some of the responses on here make me think that forums are a bit like a school playground and full of bullies.
If you can't say something good say nothing, it's suprisingly easy to upset people.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/off-topic/it-hurts-it-really-bloody-hurts/
Having just reread this entire thread,
Does it not strike readers just how some of those posters back then are deafeningly loud in their absence today?
Are we learning yet?
Can the post just above that quotes me be edited to make it very clear that the second sentence is not mine, please? Thanks.
Her rule no 1 is to avoid such discussions, life is too short.
I think it is rather telling that the issue is generally around trans women. There are occasional exceptions but its generally true as far as I can tell.
As a male who has never thought am I actually female I dont think I can really understand.
Sure intellectually I can grasp the idea about being transgender but I dont think that translate into reality.
Likewise I have very rarely felt the need to cross the road/avoid the alley as my sisters and various female friends have.
Intellectually I can see why some women do see it as males trying to undo the recent progress to equal rights but I can also intellectually see the other side.
Actually really understanding both positions I dont think I am in a position to really take a view.
Beyond loathing the arseholes who just use it for culture war purposes. The sort of person who will announce loudly we cant alllow a trans woman to use the womens loos since they might assault someone whilst voting for someone convicted for sexually assaulting women.