[Closed] The Monza F1 Thread

Yep he had more points than Senna in 92 but Senna won three races and Scumacher one. Brundle actually beat him a few times that year too. Can you imagine if Hakkinen would have been his teammate.... I also seem to remember him winning the Championships for Benneton by driving his competitors off the road? From 93 on Briatorie has said a number of times he had preferential treatment at Benneton. Oh and Senna beat him with non-factory Ford engines in 93.

He's not too old and he's not faster than the majority of drivers. Kubica or Hamilton would be rows ahead of him on the grid in the same car. Plus all this crap about him having the car 'built around him' is pathetic. Imagine Senna turning up at Mclaren and telling them 'you have to build the car around me to win'. It's laughable and just proves that his whole carrier has been about right place at the right time and preferential treatment. I'm so glad he's come back to look as mediocre as he really is.

JCL is that not what happens though?

Why would a team pay millions for a driver and then not build to car to suit him? And if you have a world Champ with the potential to be WC next season do you not pour money into getting the best car to get his potential?
Yes you cater for all in the team but by the time MS was thrice WC then surely you, as a team, milk the cash cow by making sure he wins and to do that you design around him. See Red Bull and the "taking Webbers wing" as an example from this season.

I only think it happens if the driver is a tosser. As with Alonso throwing his toys out of the pram at Mclaren and crying off to the FIA about the spy scandal (which he'd knowingly benefitted from up to that point) when he was getting beat by Hamilton.

It's simply unsportsmanlike, a great driver would want to win in the same car as his teammate. Webbers reaction earlier in the year was justified IMO.

Slightly OT but I think Kimi should bow out of WRC gracefully. Hes so-so but hes never going to be challenging for anything worthy.

Hora - wakey wakey! It seems that [url= http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86688 ]Kimi's talking to Renault[/url] about next year in F1

Oh and JCL - 99% of F1 successful drivers are 'tossers' - they are all ruthless competitive types who will use any and every advantage to beat the rest of the field. That's why they don't go screaming to the FIA when they know their cars have flexible floors, mass dampers, dodgy brake pedals, illegal traction control, parts stolen from other cars etc etc.

hora - Member
Slightly OT but I think Kimi should bow out of WRC gracefully. Hes so-so but hes never going to be challenging for anything worthy.

Or if you're better informed, you could listen to what most of the driver/managers say about Kimi that it'll probably take three to five years to fully make the transition as there's so much to learn. Hora in not a clue shocker...

clubber, you could also argue that he was coming into the sport from a different tangent to other drivers coming up.

I just don't think he had the transition. The Japanese stage for instance flummoxed him.

I'm sure someone from club level rallying will be along shortly to say either you have a basic talent for rallying or not?

Why the Schumacher hatred. While I think Schumacher's ruthlessness and occasional unsportsmanlike conduct aren't exactly worthy traits you don't win over 90 GP's by just being in the "right place at the right time"

You could argue that throughout his career he maybe wasn't racing against the strongest of opposition (Mika Hakkinen excepted) but you can only beat the guys you are up against.

I think his comeback was a bad idea, in his current form there are at least eight drivers on the grid who would beat him in the same machinery and I think that given his age the chances of him improving enough to compete at the top again are pretty slim.

Err Hill beat him. He would have beaten him TWICE.

Don't forget when Hill was coming up he was regularly up there on the podium as well.

Its not hatred. Did you ever see Mika ram anyone or caught with launch control on his car?

Yes Hill beat Schumacher, Villenevue beat him too. Prost and Mansell beat Senna. Its a competitive sport and even the best drivers won't always win, but seven titles is a remarkable achievement.

I'm by no means a Schumacher fan I just respect what he has achieved in the sport

JCL your argument is so comically ill thought-out and evidenced that I'll just laugh at it. Ha. If you don't think every successful driver builds the team and car around him to his own taste and benefit you know absolutely zip about F1.

There are several better drivers in F1 now, including his current team-mate. But he is older and I think that unquestionably makes a big difference in such a physical sport. In his day he was without doubt the best, and the records he established cannot ever have been achieved by luck, and furthermore will likely never be beaten.

I never thought too much of Mika but he went through a bit didnt he before he came 'good'. The fractured skull. Then I remember seeing him kneeling down in the trees and crying his heart out (captured by a helicopter camera crew) who zero'ed in on him. This changed it for me, the immense pressure he must have put onhimself must really have strung him out at times.

Mika Salo was a driver that didn't hit the mark but I imagine would have been a riot to go out on the lash with!

Mika Salo was a driver that didn't hit the mark but I imagine would have been a riot to go out on the lash with!

Yeah and apparently Kimi is a bit of a party animal as well

alonzo needs to be slapped, he looks like he's going to cry even when he's won.

Get used to it, because he's got a lot more winning to do. I thought his obvious emotion at winning for Ferrari at Monza was nice to see.

Elfinsafety asking someone to "change the record" is the funniest and most ironic thing I've read on here for ages

Yes but I have better taste in music than others, let's be honest.

aracer - 'Strictly speaking it was also won by Alonso being faster than Button, hence being able to turn on the pace when he needed to. Macca strategy was surely pure madness though - an out lap on cold tyres was always bound to be slower than the in lap on old tyres.'

Well aracer, if there was no pitstop, Button would have won as he driven a solid race while under pressure from Alonso and made no mistakes too, Ferrari played their cards right by pitting later than McLaren and the team perform a quicker pitstop by 1 second which help Alonso to win the race by team work and pitstop.

Secondly, Alonso was faster than Button and able to keep close to him is because Alonso hit the back of Button's car at first chicane which broke a large piece off at Button's car robbing him downforce, see link below:-

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/242598/hamilton-outsmarted-and-outperformed-says-brundle/

The driver of the race have to go to Jenson Button which he did an excellent job.

The driver of the race have to go to Jenson Button which he did an excellent job.

Nah, Alonso definitely. Had he not messed up his start, he'd have been in front and would have stormed off into the distance. Just as well he didn't, because it would have been a pretty boring race if he had. Pole, win and fastest lap.

Hamilton once again guilty of impetuousness, and Button the better tactician. An excellent pairing at McLaren now. I have a sneaky feeling Hamilton will now be 'quicker' than Button for the rest of the season...

McLaren's job got a bit more tricky with LH not scoring. There is a less clear-cut advantage for one driver over the other. Same with RBR, with Vettel clawing back a few points on Webber.

Nah, Alonso definitely. Had he not messed up his start

Not sure how you can make him driver of the race for cocking up the start and then slamming into the back of Button 😕

He scored a very good pole, pressurised Button relentlessly, pulled a gap in just one lap, withstood the demands of difficult cold tyres and brought it home for a very emotional Ferrari win. Can't see how he can [i]not[/i] be driver of the race. So he touched Button, so what?

Not sure how you can make him driver of the race for cocking up the start and then slamming into the back of Button

Easy. He made an error, yet had a fantastic drive to make up for it. He didn't deliberately 'slam into the back of Button's car', as no way would he have deliberately risked damaging his own car. McLaren played down the effect the damage had anyway. When Button pitted, Alonso's lap was 0.5 sec faster. When he came out of the pits on cold tyres, he drove brilliantly to stay in the lead, and then pulled away.

Just accept that Alonso is a brilliant driver, and totally deserved to win.

Elfie - have you not noticed that folk on here cannot accept that Alsonso is a very good driver ?

Yeah, I've noticed they throw their toys out of the pram whenever he does well... 😉

🙄 @ TJ and Fred

Tough call between Alonso and Button for drive of the race - Alonso probably on balance, largely for his brilliant qualifying lap the day before. Button did a great job of doing everything he could to stay in front but unless Alonso had hit traffic, his faster car was always going to get him in front of Button. Alonso didn't mess up his start - Button just got a great one (compare Alonso's start to everyone apart from Button)

Clearly wasn't Hamilton
Not Webber IMO, could arguably have been Vettel. Kubica - not really sure but didn't see anything spectacular from him and Massa did nothing much after some drama at the start.

in his current form there are at least eight drivers on the grid who would beat him in the same machinery

How do you know that? One of the problems with F1 is that the best drivers (or those who are perceived to be the fastest) generally get the best drives. Look at Senna who virtually camped on Frank Williams door to get to drive his car. There are many very good drivers who for one reason or another don't get the chance, or were in the wrong place contract wise at the wrong time.

To say MS had no competition is highly insulting to some very good drivers. You could also argue that both MS and Senna were single minded to the point of being dangerous and I don't think there is any doubt that they were prepared to do anything (including cheat) to win.

TBH I don't have much time for most of the F1 guys, pity they can't look at someone like Rossi for a true genius who appears to maintain some sense of reality and perspective.

Just accept that Alonso is a brilliant driver, and totally deserved to win.

I never said he wasn't, but Button had a fantastic race without making any errors. Alonso made errors and was in a faster car. For Button to only finish 3secs down against a quicker car is a fantastic drive.

I'd say there's a definite arguement that Alonso didn't make a great start. There's possibly even the smallest of arguements about whether Massa could/should have passed Alonso in the first couple of corners (I think he threatened and then just fell in line as expected).

I'm not Schumacher fan - in fact quite the opposite - I'll never forgive him for punting Hill off - BUT frankly JCL's comments are clearly just silly.

Yep he had more points than Senna in 92 but Senna won three races and Scumacher one. Brundle actually beat him a few times that year too.

And Senna got beaten by Berger and other team mates too. Senna's car that year was better than Schumacher's too.

I also seem to remember him winning the Championships for Benneton by driving his competitors off the road?

Forgotten Senna/Prost? 😉

From 93 on Briatorie has said a number of times he had preferential treatment at Benneton.

[b]

However, Prost had the firm belief that Honda and Ron Dennis viewed Senna as the future of the team. By Suzuka, Prost recalled that he had one car with maybe four or five mechanics, while his teammate had two cars and 20 people around him.[24] As a result, Prost announced in July 1989 that he would depart from McLaren and the Frenchman quickly joined his new employers: Ferrari.

He's not too old and he's not faster than the majority of drivers.

Sorry but consensus of people who comment on Schumacher's struggles disagree - they all say that he's getting beaten because he's not his old self.

Imagine Senna turning up at Mclaren and telling them 'you have to build the car around me to win'. It's laughable and just proves that his whole carrier has been about right place at the right time and preferential treatment.

F1 has always been about being in the right car - that's why Senna left McLaren for Williams, ill fated as it was.

Okay here (in no particular order) are the eight drivers I think would beat Schumacher in equal machinery, see if you agree with any of them.
Hamilton, Button, Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Massa, Kubica, Rosberg

To say MS had no competition is highly insulting to some very good drivers.

Good thing I didn't say that then.

You could also argue that both MS and Senna were single minded to the point of being dangerous and I don't think there is any doubt that they were prepared to do anything (including cheat) to win.

I can agree with that, but over the years Senna's brilliance seems to grow while Schumacher's ruthlessness is repeatedly highlighted. Perhaps if Senna enjoyed as long as a career as Schumacher memories of him would be different, unfortunately we will never know.

It's just laughably ill-informed I'm afraid. We need not imagine Senna expecting special treatment at McLaren, because that is precisely what he demanded and got.

That's a fair list of good current F1 drivers, and I do think they are probably as of this moment in time better than Schumacher. I do not think they are all better than Schumacher was in his prime however, and even those that are comparable (probably only Alonso is definitely in the same league) will probably never manage such massive success over such an extended period.

The single biggest factor in Senna's reputation is the fact that he is dead. He always was regarded as astonishingly talented, but a lot of the gushing affection came after his tragic accident.

Not sure how you can make him driver of the race for cocking up the start and then slamming into the back of Button

Cos Elfinsaftey has no idea what he's talking about. He just likes to act like a c0ck and stir up some sh1t.

Hamilton drove like an idiot. He knows he did too. But it has made the championship more exciting. Now the best result would be Hamilton, Webber, Button, Massa, Vettel and Alstroppo.

That's a fair list of good current F1 drivers, and I do think they are probably as of this moment in time better than Schumacher. I do not think they are all better than Schumacher was in his prime however, and even those that are comparable (probably only Alonso is definitely in the same league) will probably never manage such massive success over such an extended period.

Agree, Schumacher in his prime was a match for just about anyone, the point being he is pretty far from his prime at the moment.

Also, very grudgingly, agree that Alonso is the best of the current crop. Hamilton and Vettel clearly have the speed but are still too immature. Webber and Button I think just lack that final 1 or 2 percent of pace compared to the very best drivers but there maturity and nous might well see them continue to be successful for a few years yet. Kubica and Rosberg both clearly have talent but it remains untested in really good machinery.

Cos Elfinsaftey has no idea what he's talking about. He just likes to act like a c0ck and stir up some sh1t.

Whereas you just like to insult and abuse people it seems. 🙄

[url=

: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick : Yeah! It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.[/url]

Whereas you just like to insult and abuse people it seems.

Nearly got it there Elfy. Not quite though 😉

It's a lot less than 1 or 2%. Q1,2 & 3 qualifying times below.

Fernando Alonso 1:22.646 1:22.297 1:21.962
Jenson Button 1:23.085 1:22.354 1:22.084

On a 5.7km track, speaking technically, that equates to a gnats fart in terms of driver and machine difference. Even the slow/past it Schumacher was 'only' 0.3 sec behind his team mate. Nothing in it really, could be down to a bit of extra fuel or not having a dump before qualifying.

Agree, Schumacher in his prime was a match for just about anyone, the point being he is pretty far from his prime at the moment.

I think he should admit defeat to be honest. If Mercedes want a talented German to slot in next to Nico then Adrian Sutil should be get-able.