[Closed] The Law. What law?

Yeah - my "first offence" would occur a few day after something like this too! And the ex would wish the **** he'd got over her when he should have done.

Does one really "date" at 13?

*Feels very old all of a sudden*

He's 18, an adult - take him out. What a git 👿

Ive a baseball bat here if you need it 8)

Its just a sign of the 'lawlessnes' that is rife in the UK... they may get away with the attack - especially the girl due to her age.. old enough to get pregnant but young enough to be seen as she did not know what she is doing... the card all the young reprobates play... However, first offence or no... you will be treated very very differently...
A) assault on a minor comes to light.. enjoy the porridge..

He is 18, but a total numpty by the way he is acting.. 18 seems so bloody young now.. I would wait till all seems forgotten b4 having him... due to the fact the law now know about him and can tie you to the 'incident' whenever that may take place..

I`m not looking at the 15yr old girl .. my attention is very much on the 18yr old ex.

I have some friends in the police, and I know they too think the law in matters like this is plain stupid.

My daughter had a boyfriend .. for a very short time.. who thought he could control her,
When she told me, I nearly crucified the ****... I know how you feel..
its devastating...

That is real brain dead behavior. I hope your daughter is ok and doesnt run scared of these lowlifes. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

I can sort of understand your frustration ( I have no kids tho so could never totally know)

I would be more concerned that no one in the restaurant came to your daughters aid.

The two thugs will have that with them the rest of their lives. Fingerprints and DNA on the record, much decreased employment opportunities.

They will not get a second caution. If they do anything like that again They will have used up their one chance.

Don't stoop to their level.

neverfastenuff - Member

Its just a sign of the 'lawlessnes' that is rife in the UK.

This is the UK with vastly reduced crime over the last ten years. Don't believe the tabloids manufactured moral panic. Crime is significantly less than it was ten years ago.

Cautions have their place in the justice system. Not here though, in my opinion.

I would be more concerned that no one in the restaurant came to your daughters aid.

Thats what I thought what the hell are people doing sitting there watching a young girl get belted. Perhaps they didnt want there soup to get cold.

Crime is significantly less than it was ten years ago.

Yes, I read that press release from the [i]Neue Arbeit Ministerium für Staatssicherheit[/i] Too.

🙄

TandemJeremy;

I hope so... I now have a second generation family growing up in the mess that successive governments and the 'do-gooders' have created... the same people have have protected the perpetrators of Moonman daughters right to go about her daily business in safety...
Personally.. all the little barstewards should be thrown into the army as soon as they are old enough and taught respect...

Zulu - stop showing your ignorance. The UK crime survey is an independant survey of real people experience of real crime and shows large statisically valid reductions in most crime.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html

It may not fit your ignorant petty bias but it is true

Yes TJ - a survey of 51,000 people, out of a population of approx 60 million, is more accurate than the actual number of individual crimes reported!

http://uk.sitestat.com/homeoffice/rds/s?rds.recorded-crime-1898-2002xls&ns_type=clickout&ns_url= [http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/recorded-crime-1898-2002.xls]

http://uk.sitestat.com/homeoffice/rds/s?rds.recorded-crime-2002-2009xls&ns_type=clickout&ns_url= [http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/recorded-crime-2002-2009.xls]

(edited to add, have a look at violent crime levels!)

Somehow... and this is only a comment..
But, how can crime figures be down ?

From reports over the last 12mths we are in need of more police..

Crime goes on in the ignorance of effective policing.. some people have reported a police officer finally turning up 3 days after an event has been reported.. Tandem Jeremy..please make sense of this...

Perhaps car related crime has gone down.. thanks to advances in security measures built into modern cars.. perhaps this has massaged the figures ?

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/statistics/statistics074.htm

Neverfastenough - what reports? Those in the tory press?

seriously the BCS is valid and accurate and crime is significantly down - have a look at druidhs link. More accurate than police recorded crime figures as the methodology is consistent across different force areas.

I would expect the recession to have pushed crime up tho - it will appear soon enough in the figures.

the main thing that affects crime rates is affluence - in times of increasing affluence crime falls and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased that theft from an automatic machine or meter has halved in the past decade, and that Bigamy appears to have dropped through the floor...

however I'm more concerned that "total violence against the person" levels have nearly doubled since Labour came to power!

Total violence against the person offences:

98 - 502,788
99 - 581,038
00 - 600,922
01 - 650,330
02 - 845,078
03 - 967,228
04 - 1,048,095
05 - 1,059,585
06 - 1,046,168
07 - 961,175
08 - 903,993

I maintain that actual reported crime figures are more valuable than a survey of less than one percent of the population!

Hey, no need to in-fight!

I always try to remember, with so many people in the world, we're doing well not to be killing each other all the time.

However my son's just told me his Marin Highway One (which he needs to get to work) got nicked from his girlfriend's back yard. And it had Hope LEDs on.

Lots get nicked from yards in that area because there are lots of students who have not developed cynicism yet.

so I'm finding it quite difficult to believe we're doing well right now.

Went to our local chip shop last night,a few fish just sitting there enjoying the rest, all of a sudden a member of staff picks them up, batters them and throws them in hot fat, nobody helped or said anyhing except me, vinegar please, they where lovely.

Revenge is best served cold, leave it a few weeks and then slowly at first,nothing nasty etc, perhaps an advert in the local shop for something expensive for sale, quite cheap, or even an advert for sexual services in the local paper,all useing the ex boyfreinds phone number,also enrol him on a junk mail list,etc etc.

I never agree for violent revenge but pity help any man who hit any of my daughters, I'd loose my job and everything but they'd wished they never met her.

Chin the little ****er.

always two sides to every story.

if i was in the restaurant i probably would have done the same as the other diners, nothing.

i dont know she didnt deserve all she got and more.

not my fight, not my problem, but disturb my romantic meal for two........

I do so hope thats a troll soobalias.

any decent human would intervene if anyone especially a young woman was getting kicked in the head.

The BCS only represents reported crimes and trends therein and it is in no way an accurate represeation of true crime levels. It is more representative of more serious crime as they are more often reported however.

Wait , wait , wait and then teach him a lesson. Simples!

TJ, no they wouldn't. At present, someone who intervenes in such a situation will end up dead/wounded/arrested. Why bother?

The latter of those three options is the most disgusting. People are arrested for doing the right thing and trying to defend the innocent. How is that [i]right[/i]?

Im with TJ on this one. Id be pissed off if i saw a man hit a woman, let alone if the woman was my daughter.

Well CF, you might be arrested if you were involved in violence simply because the police need to work out what happened. Absolutely correct IMO. And your first statement simply isn't true anyway. Obviously you get that impression because of the high profile cases. Oh, and people perpetuating myths on the internet...

Also, I believe you're actually saying that someone being arrested is worse than them being killed 😯

I'm with TJ - I'd go and help. In fact I have done in similar situations before. Don't see how her "deserving it" has anything to do with it.

stonemonkey - Member

The BCS only represents reported crimes and trends therein and it is in no way an accurate represeation of true crime levels. It is more representative of more serious crime as they are more often reported however.

Wrong - the BCS is based on interviews with real people and their experience of real crime so includes unreported crimes therefore is more accurate than the police stats.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html

CFH - wrong - you will not be prosecuted for defending yourself or someone else from assault. More right wing bollox. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" in prevention of a crime. "Reasonable" as decided by a jury of your peers. My estimation of you has just taken a huge plummet CFH - a chap of your calibre should always intervene in these circumstance,. I have done and will continue to do so.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing:

Have a read thru this - makes for very interesting reading and violent crime is down - I don't know where Zulu got his figures from but the BCS shows significant falls in violent crimes since 1995 which was a large peak down to 1981 levels

HOMEOFFICE.GOV.UK "http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/bcs25.pdf"

Overall, according to the BCS, numbers of violent incidents have fallen back to similar levels to 25 years ago. There
were approximately 2.2 million violent incidents in 1981, and 2.4 million based on the 2005/06 BCS. The latest
figures show a significant reduction of 43 per cent from the peak of 4.3 million violent crimes in 1995.

So in other words violent crime rises under tory governments and falls under labour 🙂

actually its very little to do with criminal justice policies but mainly down to two factors - rising prosperity = falling crime and reduced number of young men

some categories of violent crime are up. Murders are significantly down and lowest for decades. No fudging possible on that figure

However my son's just told me his Marin Highway One (which he needs to get to work) got nicked from his girlfriend's back yard. And it had Hope LEDs on.

Lots get nicked from yards in that area because there are lots of students who have not developed cynicism yet.

so I'm finding it quite difficult to believe we're doing well right now.

Conclusive evidence on national crime trends there. Hasn't leaving a 2 grand bike with some expensive lights on it outside [i]always[/i] been a bit of a silly idea?

Personally, I'd be asking my daughter for a little bit more info in respect of this matter if I were mooman. One moments consideration shows that the liklihood of a new girlfriend texting a 2 or 3 year old one out of the blue and for no reason is a bit odd, as is walking into a restaurant full of people and carrying out a sustained and unprovoked attack. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye frankly.

I don't know where Zulu got his figures from but the BCS shows significant falls in violent crimes since 1995 which was a large peak down to 1981 levels

Again TJ - you are quoting data extrapolated from a survey of [b]less than one percent of the population[/b].

If you actually believe that data extrapolated to that extent, with all the possible inherent bias that can creep into any form of survey is more accurate than the physically reported police records then you're stark raving bonkers.

The data I used above is from the links I gave before, and is the actual number of crimes recorded, broken down into individual crimes and dating back to 1898 - more info here:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/recordedcrime1.html

Actual recorded violent crime has roughly doubled since 1998, (however has dropped for the last two years, after years of rise)
Actual total number of recorded crimes has dropped, however this includes the very significant drops in car crime and domestic burglary (argued to be largely due to the drop in retail cost of white goods, DVD players etc)

Zulu - with a sample that big it is clear that it is accurate - more so than the recorded crime figures. a sample that big is extremely accurate if the methodology is right and the BCS uses internationally recocognised rigourous and valid methods. Remember they can predict elections from 1000 people with high degrees of accuracy. However because it does not tally with your predjudices you ignore it. Statistical surveys grow in accuracy with the size of the sample. That is a huge wsample and is perfectly accurate. You show your ignorance once more.

Police counting methods vary from region to region and have changed over time.

I cannot find the figures you gave from that link.
From the link you gave

Longer-term trends from the BCS show the number of violent incidents has fallen by half
(49%) since 1995, representing an estimated two million fewer incidents and around threequarters
of a million fewer victims. The trends for both violence with injury and violence
without injury are similar to the trend in overall BCS violence.

G - Member

Personally, I'd be asking my daughter for a little bit more info in respect of this matter if I were mooman. One moments consideration shows that the liklihood of a new girlfriend texting a 2 or 3 year old one out of the blue and for no reason is a bit odd, as is walking into a restaurant full of people and carrying out a sustained and unprovoked attack. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye frankly.

My thoughts were along the same line. Unprovoked assaults [i]do[/i] happen, but they're not that common. More likely that something has worked up to this. Of course, we'd all like to pretend that our little princesses would be completely blameless, but who amongst us would not have glossed over some of the details to our own parents in a similar case?

If you actually believe that data extrapolated to that extent, with all the possible inherent bias that can creep into any form of survey is more accurate than the physically reported police records then you're stark raving bonkers.

The data I used above is from the links I gave before, and is the actual number of crimes recorded, broken down into individual crimes and dating back to 1898 - more info here:

Except that fails to take into account significant changes in the way crimes are recorded. I understand the BCS is generally reckoned to be a more accurate measure of real crime levels.

Perhaps you'd like to read an independent review of their methodology? http://uk.sitestat.com/homeoffice/rds/s?rds.bcs-methodology-review-2000pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url= [http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/bcs-methodology-review-2000.pdf]

[i]One moments consideration shows that the liklihood of a new girlfriend texting a 2 or 3 year old one out of the blue and for no reason is a bit odd, as is walking into a restaurant full of people and carrying out a sustained and unprovoked attack[/i]

Normally I'd agree but this is teenage girls we're talking about. All she would have had to do was find the phone number in her boyfriends phone,

'why have you still got this?',
'ummmm....(panics) she keeps texting me. I hate her, yeah, I've told her to go away but she won't'
'I'll text her then, no bitch is chasing after my man'

etc. etc.

Zulu - found the stats you used. Did you spot this - two caveats on the spreadsheet you took the figures from

Introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) across England and Wales on 1 April 2002. Some forces adopted the Standard prior to this date. Broadly, the NCRS had the effect of increasing the number of crimes recorded by the police. [b]Therefore, following the introduction of the Standard, numbers of recorded crimes are not comparable with previous years. [/b]

The following changes were made from 1 April 1998: [b]the change to the Home Office Counting Rules for recorded crime had the effect of increasing the number of crimes counted.[/b] Numbers of offences for years before and after this date are therefore not directly comparable.

Thus proving my point that the police recording stats are less accurate than the BCS figures which are real peoples experience of real crimes.

Which would be why I gave you the violent crime figures from 1998 onwards...

Figures are also still higher than the 2002 data.

A survey of 51k people, which excludes repeat crimes, crimes against businesses and crime against under sixteen year olds cannot be reliably extrapolated to create accurate figures across the UK population.

Zulu - you are simply wrong about the statistics. If you knew anything about statistics you would know that 50 000 people is a huge sample and gives very high accuraccy - and it has been a constant measure for 25 yrs and shows distinct downward trends for the last ten.

Variance is inversely proportional to sample size,
and hence standard errors and confidence intervals are inversely proportional to the
square root of sample size. For example, doubling a sample size will tend to reduce
standard errors by around 29%

A huge sample will be accurate - simple fact. I suggest you have a look at the link provided by grumm above.

You say

A survey of 51k people, which excludes repeat crimes and crime against under sixteen year olds cannot be reliably extrapolated to create accurate figures across the UK population.

What do you have to base this on? any actual facts or knowledge? Or just your common sense? Independent statisticians say it is accurate. I perfer to believe people with real knowledge.

Of course the figures are higher since 2002 - counting methods changed that accounts for this

No, the figures have shown a rise since the introduction of the new standard/

So TJ - what it comes down to is that you choose to believe and quote an extrapolated survey, sponsored by a government department, that shows the government are doing a good job.

Given our current governments record with statistics...

I choose to believe that a more accurate reflection of crime is given by the actual number of people bothered to complain to the police about the incidence of a crime.

Hmm...

Or I prefer to believe an independent rigorous valid and robust scientific statistical analysis over a simple set of figures known to be inaccurate.

Can you give any actual critique of the BCS? It uses internationally recognised methodology

All political parties accept the BCS as the best method of knowing what is happening with crime. The tories do not attack it as biased as they know it is not.

Edit - I have not heard of any criticism from the tories

haha! the amount of effort you two have put into this argument, imagine if you had put it into trail building or something useful. 😉

Actually TJ - I think you'll find that even the home office accept that neither set of data gives a true reflection of crime trends on its own.

However I think that the reliability of any data put forward by this government to justify its claim that crime is falling is more than questionable

As much as my experience disagrees with TJ's quoted survey, a sample size of 51K is vast in statistical terms. However it doesn't mean it's not open to abuse etc, on that I cannot comment.

Thank you coffeking.

extrapolated survey

[zulu]I choose to believe that a more accurate reflection of crime is given by the actual number of people bothered to complain to the police about the incidence of a crime.

Jeessuuss! (in Spanish please)

TJ why are you quoting all these nonsense about statistic this and that when you absolutely know bias could creep in no matter which govt is in power as they only use it to promote themselves.

I think we all know that [b]extrapolated[/b] finding is just that - a positivist approach. Trying to read into it too much or to use it to predict or to explain the behaviour or the reality of society you must be craving a cigarette again even when is the number "significant". Have a cigarette and think about it for a moment. A roll-up will do too ... inhale the smoke and smell the aroma of the cigarette to clear your thought.

In this case how do you explain the reality of the behaviour of an 18 yr old male beating or kicking a 16 yr old female? Yeah right the crime rate is down on paper/figure but it means shite/smoke to someone who has encountered it.

TJ you need cigarette. You lack nicotine boost and now hallucinating crime figures by extrapolation.

As for the 18 yr old male ... if there is a CCTV in the shop use it to prosecute him. Or put up a reward for those that come forward as witness. Fight him ... but use the bureaucrats' way as that will get to his head for a long time. If that fails or no evidence then I would speak to his parents face to face even if he is 18. Tell his parents that one day his son will have to face the consequences of his action. If they don't give a toss let it be but warn the 18 yr old.

Have a cigarette TJ you know you want it. 😆

I love chewkw's approach to reality. In scientific terms, it is what is described as "unhinged", but after a TJ argument with links to articles about the validity of particular statistical method it is like a breath of fresh air.

How can you say crime is falling when I've just read about a crime happening dammit????!!!! 🙂

Crime is down the goverment have the information from the BCS that proves it.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................There a weapons of mass distruction in Iraq that can be used in 45 minutes, the security services information proves it.

samuri - Member
One moments consideration shows that the liklihood of a new girlfriend texting a 2 or 3 year old one out of the blue and for no reason is a bit odd, as is walking into a restaurant full of people and carrying out a sustained and unprovoked attack

Normally I'd agree but this is teenage girls we're talking about. All she would have had to do was find the phone number in her boyfriends phone,

'why have you still got this?',
'ummmm....(panics) she keeps texting me. I hate her, yeah, I've told her to go away but she won't'
'I'll text her then, no bitch is chasing after my man'

etc. etc.

Which of course totally explains walking into a crowded restaurant and carrying out a sustained and "unprovoked" attack in front of many witnesses! ..... IMHO its more likely that it explains the Police's reticence to proceed, i.e. they are perhaps seeing it as 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other maybe? My experience of the Police is that an unprovoked assault of the nature described would bring charges of ABH or GBH especially if there were witnesses.

Having been assaulted myself last year by a little pikey who broke my cheekbone, I feel that there really is a place for the caution in the legal system. 6 months inside isn't always going to make somebody a better person.

However, if you kick up a fuss - writing to the local papers, your MP and the Cheif Constable you stand a good chance of this matter being dealt with more fully.

Also, ask your daughter if she would feel comfortable in taking it further. She may know things that she's not telling you. (Speaking here as a father of 3 young adults)

Sounds to me like your daughter got the best lesson of her life.

I bet the next time she brings a low life waster of a boyfriend home and you happen to comment on him reminding you of 'that' incident, she will drop him like a hot potato.

Dady will no longer have to bite his tongue when confronted with 'wrong uns'.

Dont get yourself into trouble. Its not worth it just to feed your ego.

Now if you happen to have a mate who bumps into this pile of crap late at night, well that would be some kind of justice.