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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09jcq10
34 mins in read by Simon 🙂
“To help JJ plan the next film here's the perfect formula:Make it the same as the original trilogy, but also make it different. But dont change anything. Make sure to include surprises, but not surprises we dont want. In fact avoid surprises. But dont rehash anything. Also dont try something new, because we wont like it. Make sure to do justice to the cast, but we wont say how. Just make sure to get it right. I want it to be exactly the way I want it. Just a bit different. And also the same. Make sure we know the back story to all the characters even the incidental ones (because we are all speculating and you better be reading my mind) but leave it mysterious at the same time. No CGI! Keep it practical. But make sure to expand the universe like the prequels did, you know, using CGI. Also dont do anything the prequels did. Or Force Awakens. Or the original trilogy. But make it like those films too. Give it some humour too. But dont make it too funny. Show us some new force powers! But not ones we havent seen before because new powers are ridiculous. Dont kill anyone! it betrays my childhood. But also make it unpredictable by killing off a few characters.
Clear? Good.”
That sum it up for people 😆
Also, Star Wars is a bit behind the times politically - they're still stuck in the days of the British Empire.
Really,if they wanted to be edgy, they'd be portraying the resistance as populist rebellion die hards riding on a wave of anti establishment values - where their specieism leads to the wiping out of the Ewoks on Endor via Death Star exploding induced climate change, where the Jedi are scaoegoated and genocided for the actions of a lone nutter sending the galaxy into an epic French Revolution among the stars....with Kylo Ren and establishment old guard saving the day.
you know it's not a documentary don't you.... or have you moved to Cali for the legal weed man 😉
No, but I think the writers did. It was all a bit 1970's Cali/burning man radical feminist. The message was about 30 years out of date, we get it already.
But apparently preach cliches are edgy in a Star Wars movie. According to Vice, the Guardian etc.
Cali/burning man radical feminist.
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[/img]A phrase never used in a good way...
I see some of the criticism up front but if you look back through revolutions and resistance movements through history women play a huge role, watch the other films - a lot of the men are dead, it's obvious that there will be more women running the show.
The message was about 30 years out of date, we get it already.
People really don't get it, see a lot of the knuckle draggers who can't get their pea brains around the fact a mythical regenerating time traveller from another galaxy needs to have a penis.
Put it this way, this is a proper Female military role model in a sci fi.
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Instead we had this... a purple haired primary school teacher who new best, so didn't feel that she needed to explain to anyone her plan.
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And the male pilots/role models were just as bad - instead of the level headed pilots who you could actually imagine walking into a briefing room....eg the originals.. you had a top gun manboy pastiche.
Instead we had this... a purple haired primary school teacher who new best, so didn't feel that she needed to explain to anyone her plan.
True. Same goes for Poe. Both just looked like idiots really, if that's who is left at the top no wonder they can all fit in the Falcon with room to spare by the end.
Instead we had this... a purple haired primary school teacher who new best, so didn't feel that she needed to explain to anyone her plan.
Except she did, to the people who needed to know. She put the plan into action well and Poe nealy screwed it up. She was the most senior person left so not fully military but in command. This isn't an army it's a collection of politicians, military, rebels, hangers on and people they picked up along the way.
Tom_W1987 - Member
Put it this way, this is[b] what I think[/b] a proper Female military role model in a sci fi.
I seem to recall quite a few times where Starbuck went off to do things in BSG without telling anyone else or basically played Poe
You would think that telling other Officers your plans would include your CAG/Wing Commander/Squadron Leaders/Flight Leaders, wouldn't you? But no, one person.... Leia. Who also knows best at all times.
Starbucks issues are what made her believable, as opposed to a men=bad women=good dichotomy. BSG had other great female leads as well, eg the President. More of those please and less sneering hippy campness.
Starbucks issues are what made her believable, as opposed to a men=bad women=good dichotomy.
Really? Maybe I managed to look passed that
You would think that telling other Officers your plans would include your CAG, wouldn't you? But no, one person.... Leia. Who also knows best at all times.
You have some sort of tracking going on, could be human, could be mechanical so keeping plans like that a secret are generally important. Ah well just relax and enjoy the next film you watch
But if they are compromised by human or non-human spies, surely they would send the message out when they all scarpered on the lifeboats.
The whole thing made so little sense, I think I've suffered an aneurism. The points/messages seem to have been secondary to or come at the cost of any kind of fleeting semblance of suspension of disbelief.
http://mashable.com/2017/11/21/last-jedi-holdo-women-workplace/#amjgAYpFAOqA
Judge Holdo by her purple hair, do you?It's beautifully subversive," Dern said about the costume design for her character, a military leader who also happens to be catwalk-ready
Really deep game changing observations! Oscar worthy even!
Whos untied hair could harm her situational awareness... not to mention the narcissism probably isn't good in a military leader. But yeah, what do militaries know....let's make a point for the sake of it...
Anyway, I'm looking foward to the day the army is staffed by fat bearded pink haired colourblind soldiers.
Those breakdowns are mental. It’s a children’s film about space wizards with huge glow sticks. That’s it. I might write a piece on Hey Duggee and it’s role in animal rights 🙂
Those breakdowns are mental. It’s a children’s film about space wizards with huge glow sticks
Precisely. it was always total nonsense, but a load of fun. It seems to me that TLJ is annoying all the right people.
TLJ is annoying all the right people
do people actually get annoyed by it? or do people just like to (over)analyse such things and try to find perspectives that others haven't or to fit their own agenda?
do people actually get annoyed by it?
Have you read this thread?
Have you read this thread?
yeah, but are people ACTUALLY annoyed or is it just forum spouting?
is there a trope for people writing angry stuff even though they're not angry? like a mild troll.
I think the issue is why start a forum thread if you don't want peoples opinions on things, why have film critics if you don't want to read what people think of something?
"i wasn't angry...just disappointed.."
It is a film, not worth getting angry about, doesn't mean i can't place my point of view forward that i didn't really like it as a whole film, i liked bits of it, but overall i thought a lot of it was mis-judged and a large sections of it just not very good, kids film or not.
yeah, but are people ACTUALLY annoyed or is it just forum spouting?
I think they're actually annoyed, and feel able to spout off here because of the semi-anonymity. We even have some sub-MRA crap creeping in because they dared to cast women as leaders.
Yeah, at least it was more realistic than that stupid Dunkirk film!
[quote=Tom_W1987 ]You would think that telling other Officers your plans would include your CAG/Wing Commander/Squadron Leaders/Flight Leaders, wouldn't you? But no, [b]one person.... Leia. Who also knows best at all times.[/b]
There's actually context to that, which unfortunately isn't explained in the film, and relies on you reading or at least knowing about some of the books that accompanied TFA.
Basically, Leia at this stage is a rebelling, rebel.
From wikipedia
The 2016 novel Star Wars: Bloodline explained how this faction officially reorganized into the "First Order", and that this final transition only occurred about six years before The Force Awakens. By that time, the New Republic Senate had become divided into two parties: the Populists led by Leia Organa, who wanted to decentralize authority, and the Centrists, who wanted power to remain concentrated in a strong central government. Many of the Centrists were former Imperials who admired the old Empire for bringing order to the galaxy, and who feared that without strong central control the New Republic would become as weak and ineffectual as the Old Republic. Ultimately, many Centrist worlds seceded from the New Republic to reunite with the holdout Imperial remnants on the fringe of the galaxy, and formally combined into a new government called "the First Order". First Order conspirators publicly revealed that Leia was in fact the daughter of Darth Vader, severely harming her political standing among the remaining Populists.[4]
With her political standing severely weakened, and the New Republic Senate gridlocked and unwilling to recognize the First Order's military buildup, Leia Organa decides to withdraw and form her own small private army, known as the Resistance, to fight the First Order within its own borders. She is joined by other members of the former Rebel Alliance such as Admiral Ackbar. Publicly the New Republic continues to disavow direct association with the Resistance to maintain plausible deniability, and though the majority of the Senate does not want to intervene against the First Order, several Senators privately channel funds and resources to the Resistance. This state of affairs continued on for the next six years until the events of The Force Awakens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Order_(Star_Wars)
Saw this the other day. It was about as expected. Watchable, but basically another reboot of the original trilogy. It's amazing that they've gone to all the expense and effort to simply rehash the original story line. Totally pointless IMO.
My main criticism of SW is that making it child-friendly completely ruins what is a pretty dark story. Can you imagine what it would have been like with a 15 or even 18 rating, without the pointless comedy and shallow characters? Instead of rebooting the original trilogy in much the same vein but with better VFX, they'd have been much better off remaking the originals with an adult audience in mind. Of course they'd have made a lot less money, and Disney were never going to do it, so we'll all be left wondering what might have been.
My main criticism of SW is that making it child-friendly completely ruins what is a pretty dark story. Can you imagine what it would have been like with a 15 or even 18 rating, without the pointless comedy and shallow characters?
Like a really shit Culture novel made in to a film, probably.
I'm thinking more the Batman Dark Knight films. Just like with Batman, the SW story requires a darker and more mature approach. ESB came the closest, which is why it's regarded as the best of the SW films by a country mile. Episode III had signs of this despite the wooden acting and shit script, also the Force Awakens with the nazi references, but TLJ just went back to Return of the Jedi ewoks sillyness.
I'm expecting the Solo film to be very light hearted and Guardians of the Galaxy-esque
dumb bombs and ball turrets? taking the ww2 inspiration too far, its now mad max in space.
They featured in the originals.
It wasnt too bad - Not as good as rogue one, better than ep 1-3.
Loved the first space battle, nice hark back to the Tie bombers trying to flush out the Falcon in TESB. Could have done without the Leia / Mary Poppins crap, and just have removed the casino scene full stop but you can see what they were trying to achieve, it was just waaaaaaaaaaay to long.
Got a little dusty in my seat as Luke signed off with the twin suns in the distance.
And fatty Corden got too much screen time.
7/10 from me, might go up to 8/10 when it comes out on DVD and can do an epic R1 - 4/5/6/7/8 marathon.
They featured in the originals.
Yup - The falcon coming in out of the sun to save the day (yee haa!) was lifted straight out of every ww2 film. And is still one of the most iconic scenes in Star Wars.
I finally got to see it yesterday........I liked it, don't see what all the hate is about really.
So what if Leia went all Mary Poppins, pretty sure every time someone uses the force they hold out the hand. Like she was to get to the door.....so you know.
The pacing was a bit off and could have done with a bit of trimming but generally, it was a Star Wars film.
They could have done with acknowledging the death of Ackbar a bit better than "oh yeah, he wen't out the window")
the [i]entire[/i] thing was lifted from every ww2 film. Including the gravity-affected arc of the big naval guns 🙂 and the ridiculous Superfortress bombers with unguided bombs that can only be dropped by pressing a big red button on a wire.was lifted straight out of every ww2 film
yeah that sucked. Actually, none of the rebels seemed to care much that all their friends are dying around them. Like when the hanger deck is destroyed and Poe sees all his fellow pilots die his facial expression doesn't change [i]at all[/i] - makes him seem like a bit of a psychopath tbh!They could have done with acknowledging the death of Ackbar a bit better than "oh yeah, he wen't out the window")
acknowledging the death of Ackbar a bit better than "oh yeah, he wen't out the window"
I kind of agree, but he's only ever had a bit-part anyway. Only memorable for his looks and courage but never had a big role did he.
pressing a big red button on a wire
wasn't on a wire.
ah true actuallywasn't on a wire.
Very popular with the fans though! Possibly shit on as an iconoclastic move though (like the whole rest of the film 🙂 )I kind of agree, but he's only ever had a bit-part anyway.
the entire thing was lifted from every ww2 film. Including the gravity-affected arc of the big naval guns and the ridiculous Superfortress bombers with unguided bombs that can only be dropped by pressing a big red button on a wire.
It has faster than light travel and wizards who levitate rocks, but sure, let's worry about how bombs are dropped.
the ridiculous Superfortress bombers with unguided bombs that can only be dropped by pressing a big red button on a wire.
That was my daughter's favourite scene.
Tip for watching any Star Wars film… IT IS NOT REAL.
It's the incongruity of it. The wizards have always been there, so you can accept it. But every other ship has a high level of technology. The fighters have droids who can fly the ship or even fix it when it goes wrong. Yet the poor cow in the bomber (arguably a much more vital craft) has to do everything herself! It's just a lazy way to add tension.It has faster than light travel and wizards who levitate rocks, but sure, let's worry about how bombs are dropped.
There were bombs in the previous ones
Agreed, the suspension of disbelief is totally missing... you are painfully aware that you're watching a very badly made film.Tip for watching any Star Wars film… IT IS NOT REAL.
here were bombs in the previous ones
You mean guided torpedos, luke made them dumb by turning off his targetting computer.... or do you mean the bombs used on the almost planet sized asteroid the falcon hid in? Either way, a little easier to believe in the moment.
It's the incongruity of it. The wizards have always been there, so you can accept it. But every other ship has a high level of technology. The fighters have droids who can fly the ship or even fix it when it goes wrong. Yet the poor cow in the bomber (arguably a much more vital craft) has to do everything herself! It's just a lazy way to add tension.
It's not incongruous, it's unfamiliar. Very little of the tech adds up when you stop to think about it. For example, what is hi tech about a droid using a mechanical arm to push buttons on a control panel?
I think they're actually annoyed, and feel able to spout off here because of the semi-anonymity. We even have some sub-MRA crap creeping in because they dared to cast women as leaders.
It's not that, it's that they have admitted to going out of their way to make some very cliche points in an overly obvious way that treats the audience as if they are idiots. That grates, not that there were women in leadership positions.
Plenty of good sci fi that has strong women leads, Star Wars EP8 wasn't one of them. In fact, I'd say it does women a disservice - it's saying that if women want to join the military they'll still want to keep their cutesy pink hair and nails. Hardly bringing down stereotypes.
poor cow in the bomber (arguably a much more vital craft) has to do everything herself!
Nope, rest of bomber crew killed in explosion.
You mean guided torpedos, luke made them dumb by turning off his targetting computer.... or do you mean the bombs used on the almost planet sized asteroid the falcon hid in? Either way, a little easier to believe in the moment.
The bombs as they’re bombs but not sure why they are any easier to believe.
It's not that, it's that they have admitted to going out of their way to make some very cliche points in an overly obvious way that treats the audience as if they are idiots. That grates, not that there were women in leadership positions.
It doesn't grate with me, but then I'm not looking for things to be annoyed about.
lol. stop ruining my argument 😡Nope, rest of bomber crew killed in explosion.
It doesn't grate with me, but then I'm not looking for things to be annoyed about.
Well it grated with my wife, a 5 foot nothing Filipino female investment banker who earns more than I do and deals white rugby playing types on a daily basis.
Apparently, feminist and or religious (eg Jedi) women of colour aren't important. Just secular middle/upper class white women who are going to lead all the other species and races to their emancipation from tyranny. Much like how the likes of Madonna and Angelina see themselves. Whilst Boyega etc got tokenistic roles.
Apparently, feminist and or religious (eg Jedi) women of colour aren't important. Just secular middle/upper class white women who are going to lead all the other species and races to their emancipation from tyranny. Much like how the likes of Madonna and Angelina see themselves. Whilst Boyega etc got tokenistic roles
So you wouldn't be complaining if the lead women were black?
Pull the other one.
I wouldn't be complaining if it wasn't a supernova of a cliche, that treats it's audience as if they were mouth breathing imbeciles. Strong female leads great, tokenism and patronising plattitudes from white hollywood hippies that know better than you = irritating.
I wouldn't be complaining if it wasn't a supernova of a cliche, that treats it's audience as if they were mouth breathing imbeciles. Strong female leads great, tokenism and patronising plattitudes from white middle class hippies that know better than you = irritating.
I see what you mean. You settle down to watch a treatise on contemporary feminism and instead you get spaceships shooting frikkin lazers at each other.
😀
They should have kept it more subtle and upped the intelligence if they didn't want their points to attract critique.
How did the girl who got dumped by her parents and scraped a living selling scrap become middle-class? Does she have an Audi on PCP that’s still to be revealed?
She's got an orange 5, but you can't tell it from the stuff she recovers
Sod feminism, when are the main cast going to be made up from the woefully under represented alien species. I want a film about the Canteena band from the first film. A comedy caper like the Blues Brothers, but entirely in an alien language and no subtitles.
Sod feminism, when are the main cast going to be made up from the woefully under represented alien species. I want a film about the Canteena band from the first film. A comedy caper like the Blues Brothers, but entirely in an alien language and no subtitles.
And the soft pron version "Nookie with a Wookie"
How did the girl who got dumped by her parents and scraped a living selling scrap become middle-class? Does she have an Audi on PCP that’s still to be revealed?
Because judging by her accent, she obviously got adopted by poshos and sent to Jaku boarding school. That or they are culturally appropriating working class hardship by having some posho with no idea what it's like to be a bit working class, play one. 😀
See, Star Wars EP8 is problematic.
The bombs are magnetic. I assume the bombers are made of some non-magnetic metal alloys or whatever.
I love Star Wars for its whole escapist space fantasy schtick. While several people have been complaining that it should have gone darker, that really isn't what I want personally. Star Wars has always been heroes being heroic, villains being villainous and stories that may involve hardship and tragedy but where those fighting on the side of good can triumph in the end and even a villain might find redemption.
That's probably what didn't sit right with me with Rogue One, as it felt odd to put a story which says "it isn't that clear cut, people do bad things for good reasons and a noble cause won't mean a happy ending" into a universe which has spent 40 years saying the opposite.
Tom_W1987 - Member
Plenty of good sci fi that has strong women leads, Star Wars EP8 wasn't one of them. In fact, I'd say it does women a disservice - it's saying that if women want to join the military they'll still want to keep their cutesy pink hair and nails. Hardly bringing down stereotypes.
Never mind Rose, her sister and the A Wing pilot, eh? Also weren't there a few women on the First Order bridges?
If episodes VII and VIII wanted to seem more politically prescient, they should have had the First Order being run by a bunch of disaffected late middle aged guys who wanted to make the galaxy great again, rather than a couple of kids who idolised a brutal regime they have no personal memory of. And Snoke should have had ridiculous hair. 🙂
How did the girl who got dumped by her parents and scraped a living selling scrap become middle-class? Does she have an Audi on PCP that’s still to be revealed?
Did you not see the wood burner on the millennium falcon?
Never mind Rose, her sister and the A Wing pilot, eh? Also weren't there a few women on the First Order bridges?
All the main characters who influenced the primary plotline were white women, Rose and Finns character felt tokenistic to me.
If there were female bridge staff with lines, on the first order side... I don't remember them.
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One! And what effect did she have on the primary plotline? None! 😀
What are you moaning about? Too few or too many key female characters?
What are you moaning about? Too few or too many key female characters?
It seems to vary.
What are you moaning about? Too few or too many key female characters?
That there weren’t any but there were but they were token ones, he doesn’t know he needs to check his with wife who earns more than him.
Only just seen this, and was curious to see what others made of it. Bobba Fett's comment is probably most in line with mine - for me it was just fine, but not much more. Definitely not as good as TFA in terms of keeping me gripped, or even in getting me to invest in the characters; it was all a bit "OMG let's try this last ditch thing; omg now let's try THIS last ditch thing; zomg, we need an even MORE last ditch thing". But it was fine, and Ade Edmonson and Domhnall Gleeson were excellent.
I finally got to see it yesterday........I liked it, don't see what all the hate is about really.The pacing was a bit off and could have done with a bit of trimming but generally, it was a Star Wars film.
Drac, it's just that it was a clunky piss poor movie, with a clunky piss poor political message. Had either one of the two aspects been better or genuinely subversive, the movie would have been easier to enjoy. They weren't and unlike the rather unoriginal TFA, the combination of poor story telling and lazy political tropes amounted to a galling assault on credulity.
Not enough Jedi in it for me.
Not seen it, but does it have a political messsge or are you just looking for one? As stated by ransos and me, it’s a kids film about space wizards.
Genuinely curious and would like to see it for myself. Ten week old baby, she say no!
The critics seem to think so.... I'd agree.
The critics seem to think so.... I'd agree.
Didn’t most critics love it though, which would point to said message not being clunky? I’ve never looked for a political agenda in Star Wars mainly because Star Wars. Each to their own though.
That's why I disagree with a lot of them. A lot of those critics are self congratulating white men/women, who seem out of touch with feminism outside of the west.
It just ****ing bored me, that's it. Everything about it was predictably trite Californian Hippy Dippy crap.
it was pony.
end of thread.
That's why I disagree with a lot of them. A lot of those critics are self congratulating white men/women, who seem out of touch with feminism outside of the west.It just **** bored me, that's it. Everything about it was predictably trite Californian Hippy Dippy crap.
Cobblers. You happened to dislike the film, so hammered google until you found a review to put a pseudo-intellectual gloss on it, failing to notice that the whole piece was intended as satire.
It just **** bored me, that's it.
There that’s it you took a polictical stance and all the time it was because you found it boring. Finding it boring is fair enough.
All the main characters who influenced the primary plotline were white women, Rose and Finns character felt tokenistic to me.If there were female bridge staff with lines, on the first order side... I don't remember them.
Rose and Finns Characters had their own story arc. They both went out to battle with the [b]Guatemalan-American[/b] Poe Dameron in the speeders. They were each others love interest, not the white folks.
The people making rational decisions were women, Holdo had the best plan regardless of her hair colour.
Next you'll be complaining about the misrepresentation of fish and how Porg on Porg violence has to end.
Like the film, don't like the film, but stop turning everything into a complaint on society, or how stormtroopers are inherently racist. It's a film where a talking bin and a wizard are best pals.
#moncalimarilivesmatter
can I just add that I know one of the actors who was piloting one of the ski speeders on Crait.
when I say know, I mean I've talked to him a couple of times at a kid's party.
who wants to touch me?
when I say know, I mean I've talked to him a couple of times at a kid's party.who wants to touch me?
I hope he doesn’t use that line at the kid’s party.
Like the film, don't like the film, but stop turning everything into a complaint on society, or how stormtroopers are inherently racist. It's a film where a talking bin and a wizard are best pals.
Then don't make the message so overt and hackneyed in the film in the first place - and then congratulate it for it's daft attempt at social relevance!
can I just add that I know one of the actors who was piloting one of the ski speeders on Crait.when I say know, I mean I've talked to him a couple of times at a kid's party.
who wants to touch me?
My company made those Ski Speeders and you can keep your hands to yourself 
I seem to have missed the “message” can someone please fill me in? I always thought the standing message was “baddies are bad, goodies are good”?