I didn't say Gyppos. I pointed out the unfortunate correlation between the arrival of a fleet of caravans and increased crime/rubbish.
My original post was supportive of the girls in the programme. I balanced that by remarking on some negative behaviour. And qualified it by suggesting that both sides should take steps to address the problem. Whatever a group's heritage or tradition is, I'm afraid they have to comply with the laws of the land they have chosen to live in, just like the rest of us.
I agree education is not for all, but if those girls wish to break the cycle it will greatly assist them if they can read, write and do maths. For example Margaret in the programme couldn't produce a pattern because she couldn't do basic maths. She became frustrated, disappointed, probably embarrassed and then angry. I was not criticising her, just making an observation, and a suggestion that education would help.
Being able to read and write isn't a chore, it's liberating, it opens the door to all kinds of experiences and a wealth of wisdom and knowledge - and humour too.
If I wanted to move to Spain then presumably I'd be a fan of the life and culture, so I'd make an effort to learn the language and 'fit in'. Why else would I move there?
but as as already been clearly stated.. some Roma families have been here since 1500.. and until recently (the last century) the nomadic lifestyle fitted very comfortably alongside settled folk.. and amongst the nomadic people of this country at that time.. (farm labourers and suchlike to name one example)
now that many Roma have been forced into settled life by persecution and prohibitive legeslation, and are increasingly forced to give up those traditions and aspects of their culture, do you not think it's a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant 'if you don't like it don't come here' argument..?
as for the generalisation here, I find it abhorrent..
I have a fair few friends from travelling communities, many from as far back as primary school, and some as new as the last couple of years, and all are law abiding, tax paying, community spirited people..
Let's get back to the OP.
The question I have is whether the young irish traveller women have reduced life choices by being trapped in a lifestyle not of their own making. I believe the lack of education is in itself a form of subjugation and denial of human rights.
One final point, the ritual of 'grabbing'.....that's assault isn't it?
now that many Roma have been forced into settled life by persecution and prohibitive legeslation, and are increasingly forced to give up those traditions and aspects of their culture, do you not think it's a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant 'if you don't like it don't come here' argument..?
Its an interesting point you make there, but is it not more a case of a lifestyle that had become increasingly irrelevant as the world has changed?
do you not think it's a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant 'if you don't like it don't come here' argument..?
THIS
FFS what do you think the perception is of Brits who settle abroad? People who are indistinguishable from the natives or folk who moan about the lack of availability of baked beans and marmite?
It is a human condition to cling to your traditions wherever you happen to be geographically based be it Brits in Spain, travellers here, Asian communities etc.
Bit of understanding and tolerance from both sides is the obvious solution
The travellers used to have sites, facilities and be accepted members of society....if you marginalise folk and treat them like crap they won’t respect your society, values and ways.....because you dont respect theirs.
Karin I agree re-education...but it is our cultural way to believe in this and other views are ok. We may be educated but there will be many many things travellers can do that we cannot do...depends what you value and what you think you need.
Note I am not saying that the traditions and heritage should disappear, I am however saying that paying tax and not littering would be two good starts.
Bit of a massive generalisation there. I wonder when we will start making generalisations about white, middle-aged, upper-middle class men all being complicit in fraud, money-laundering and tax evasion.
Its an interesting point you make there, but is it not more a case of a lifestyle that had become increasingly irrelevant as the world has changed?
aye, you could be right there.. but there's an undeniable element of chicken or the egg to it..
but there's an undeniable element of chicken or the egg to it..
Thinking about it, it does seem a bit like travellers are clinging onto a lifestyle which is outmoded now, and that may very well be at the root of the problem. Maybe this is what happens when a particular way of life gets superceded. The actual process of change is pretty brutal, grim, and drawn out, where those in power basically grind those who aren't into the ground and effectively assimulate them or wipe them out. I can think of reams of historical parallels.
Perhaps the real debate should be how to overcome the issue in a more civilised fashion. Who knows? It would be interesting to have a time machine and take a peak at it with the benfit of hindsight in say a couple of hundred years time.
Chavvy kai my boi - kai means where. But chavvy is more likely to be chavi/chavvie - meaning small child, usually female while chavo is the male equivalent but is less used and chavi has come to represent both genders. Boi doesnt mean anything in Romany. Roughly - where's your children my boy.
Sorry Karin I didnt accuse you of saying Gyppo.
I agree with some of the things said and disagree with other things. But still it's not a lifestyle - Romany have been travelling for 1,000 years since leaving Northern India. Gypsies have adapted over the centuries and will do so over the forthcoming ones. This two hundred years has seen the Romany move from living in tents to wagon life and then onto motorised life. All suiting the occupations that they were involved in, predominantly fruit and vegetable picking and general labouring. Transport was required to follow the seasonal fruit and vegetable picking routes and other activities that utilised or required transport. Romany/Traveller life will not change just because they become sedentary, yes there is some marrying out but Romany/traveller life is a community and that includes marrying each other.
But not all Romany are settled, some still travel. Others settled because they had a business to run or had decent long term employment rather than seasonal work that required them to move between different farms within a large area.
More Gypsies and travellers started roaming again once the caravan sites act was repealed in the 1990s. Before that, councils were obliged to provide transient sites for travellers that had not already bought their own land. Councils encouraged travellers to buy their own land as the council sites were being all closed down. This many did but then the same councils refused them planning permission on the land and then evicted them off their own land they had bought and then usually confiscated the land in payment for eviction costs.
Romany were first reported in this country in the 1500s. There have been several waves of Romany to the UK. The ones that have been here the longest are the ones most likely to have married the occasional non-Romany and look less like the Roma in Eastern Europe who remained concentrated and sedentary as slaves until the late 1800s. After the 1800s many Romany came to the UK from the East after being freed from slavery, some stayed in the UK but many moved onto the Americas and other British colonies. Many Romany from the UK also went to the USA and there are many British Romany (also known as Romanichals) there with the same family names as the Romany here such as Smith, Lee, Heron, Loveridge, Hearn, Boswell, Stanley, etc. Many British Romany also migrated to Scandinavia where they are know as Romanishals or Kale which is what many of the Welsh Romany are known as.
Irish travellers came to this country in three main waves the 1850s, the 1960s and the past couple of years due to changes in the law in Ireland. The 1850s wave most probably see themselves as English Gypsies/travellers now, perhaps even some of the 1960s wave do aswell???? But many of them still self identify as Irish/Pavee/travellers and many of them still talk with an Irish accent as they are an isolated community, even if they have been here for generations and never been to Ireland, they will still have the accent.
Some Romany self identify as Travellers, they see it as the umbrella name for all travellers - Irish, Scots, Welsh, Romany and Travellers. Fair Ground people are seen as separate and are called show people. Some Romany don't like the name Gypsy and don't use it and prefer traveller while some are still happy to use it.
Romany/traveller life is very traditional with set gender roles. Some do find the life quite suffocating but those tend to marry out. If you stay in the Romany/traveller life then you know what you are getting but is this no different from the traditional tribal lives of bush people of africa, the amazon forest tribes etc etc.
Interesting post ratswithwings.
Kind of relevant but a little OT - this is great IMO:
99 problems, but a gypsy girl ain't one (hundred).
Berm Bandit - Member1) As General Manager of a company on a trading estate our fleet of vehicles (locked in a secure pound) was ransacked for spares, including such things as doors, bonnets, wheels and engine components. Coincidentally at the same time a traveller encampment that had been on the estate for a few days disappeared overnight. The police advised that ours was the last of a spate of such things that occurred while they were there.
I always end up mentioning this on these threads... Whenever the travellers pitched up on the industrial estate by my old office, we used to get a huge spike of crime. Followed by lots of arrests of local scrotes and insurance fraudsters. Locals see it as open season because everyone will blame the gypos.
