The fact remains that he clearly compared the IDF with the Nazis.
So what? It doesn’t mean that he’s right or that its legitimate.
Of course not.
Which is precisely why I wrote the following:
You might think that comparing Israeli territorial expansion, ghetto creation, collective punishments, ethnic superiority, demonisation of a people, etc, with similar Nazi policies is inappropriate, but it does not justify accusing those who make the comparison of hate.
You might think that comparing Israeli territorial expansion, ghetto creation, collective punishments, ethnic superiority, demonisation of a people, etc, with similar Nazi policies is inappropriate, but it does not justify accusing those who make the comparison of hate.
There's nothing wrong with making comparisons if you are examining historical similarities and parallels. As long as you remain objective and unprejudiced. But what I'm talking about is the use of imagery to demonise all Jews. To the point where my wife does not feel safe wearing a symbol of her cultural heritage. I myself have been in situations where I have had to keep quiet, or even deny my Muslim heritage. To feel unsafe in such a way, in your own country, is very scary. We are witnessing a massive spoke in racist behaviour, much of it antisemitic and Islamophobic. Against the background of the rise of the far right across Europe, this is of grave concern to many millions of people in the UK and elsewhere. So all I'm asking for, is consideration of this, and for people to be mindful of not spreading images or material that can further perpetuate hatred. It may not be the intention of the person sharing an image, but that could well be the outcome. So try to listen to others if they are expressing concern. Let's try to work towards a situation where anyone can wear a symbol of their cultural heritage, and feel safe.
So what? It doesn’t mean that he’s right or that its legitimate. There’s no moral equivalence between the Nazis and the Israeli state regardless of anyone’s views on the plight of the Palestinians. In my view regardless of whether you think the comparison is by itself anti-Semitic, it has two issues 1. it allows the sorts of folks who want to do harm to Jews a space to claim legitimacy and puts Jews in harms way, and 2, it invites the comparisons that Jews should be punished internationally <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;">in the same way the Nazis were.
Have the discussion within a context of the history of wider anti Semitism by all means, but just blandly making the comparisons becasue you don’t like the actions of the IDF currently and you feel the need to be angry about it is misguided. Just say you don’t like how they’re behaving, I don’t, but I also don’t feel the need to compare them against horrors perpetrated against Polish Jews 80 years ago. Compare them to any invading Imperialistic force, the Americans in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan is just as valid.
Very well put, and thank you NickC for your thoughts and words.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/26/tommy-robinson-arrested-march-antisemitism-london
I found this bit particularly interesting:
He felt colleagues shunning him after the start last month of the Israel-Hamas war: “I have certainly experienced a number of my colleagues who used to be warm and friendly towards me and they blank me now.
“It’s clear to me that maybe six to eight people who would usually say ‘hi Jeremy’ or ‘good morning’ don’t even look at me and it’s obvious why that is.”
If they used to be "warm and friendly" and say "Hi Jeremy" it sounds fairly conclusive that his colleagues are not anti-semitic.
If recent events has changed their attitude then it is presumably because his colleagues believe that Jeremy is supporting the current Israeli slaughter of civilians in Gaza.
This is yet another classic example of 'if you don't support Israel you are anti-semitic'.
So try to listen to others if they are expressing concern.
Nothing to add to this. It's just worth repeating.
There will have been people on yesterday’s march who just want to show solidarity with a country they feel an affiliation with
You make my point. If Jewish != Israel, why would an anti-semitism march be the place to "show solidarity" with Israel ?
Julia Hately-Brewer and someone that looks like a Harry Enfield creation, talking about Poor Brave Tommy's human rights:<br /><br />
JHB (sounds like a banned substance) telling lies about crowds 'screaming antisemitic hatred' at the peace marches (I've been to a few, and heard nothing of the sort, and very little of that nature has been reported, like a couple of individuals no more), and some rubbish about Poor Brave Tommy's right to attend a march he wasn't welcome at, and other such nonsense. I can't take someone who was happy to be photographed with the racist Boris Johnson at the march, seriously. Especially when they try to distort the truth to suit their own narrative. Guttersnipe.
You make my point. If Jewish != Israel, why would an anti-semitism march be the place to “show solidarity” with Israel ?
Everyone's got their own reasons for attending whatever demonstration they choose. I do feel that some of the waving of Israeli flags was deliberately aimed against those who show solidarity with Palestine, but others may have different reasons. The Israeli flag itself isn't the issues, it's just a flag. Its use however, particularly in this context, could be seen as problematic. For instance, neither my wife not many of her Jewish friends and colleagues would display or wave an Israeli flag (but would wear a SoD, hence my earlier pleas or sensitivity). Amongst the flag-wavers will undoubtedly be some vile, hateful racists (same as some at pro-Palestinian demos), but there will also be those who want peace, and are trying to show solidarity with Israeli friends and families, same as many people flying Palestinian flags, so we mustn't be too quick to judge.
Who’s an “Israeli government supporter’?
I would have thought that quite obvious, anyone who supports the policies and actions of the Israeli govt. Anyway, if the question here is whether the Israeli govt is far right (we really don't need to use the 'n' word) then I think it would be very difficult to say no even based on their actions prior to October 7th let alone after it. Racism, authoritarianism, violence, de-humanising of ethnic groups, it ticks all the boxes. I suppose this is why so many people are marching. We want to keep far right sentiment off our own streets but then our govt gives support or turns a blind eye to a far right govt elsewhere. Back in the 30s that would have been called appeasement.
Anyway, do you think we could stop the Israel talk before another thread is killed? This is mostly about the spread of the far right in Western European democracies and why it's happening.
And yet the “anti-semitism” march yesterday was full of people waving Israeli flags.
Sorry, must have missed that.
Unless you mean the far/extreme right wing inspired islamaphobic hate march that happened yesterday ?
I'm not yet sure how it will all play out, but it doesn't look like yesterday's march was a 'success' if it was genuinely intended as show of solidarity against actual antisemitism. Which is a massive shame, because there is definitely need for this right now. Instead, it's coming across as right-wing reactionism. That much of the talk is about Poor Brave Tommy's human rights being brutally crushed is bad, because it detracts from the serious issue of rising xenophobia in this country. Personally. I'd like to see such a demo go side by side with the ceasefire peace marches, because true solidarity is so vital right now. Nobody wins here. And with the march being so obviously right-wing in terms of its prominent attendees, that's not going to win over people like myself, who would like to show such support. If I have to 'pick a side', then it's not going to be next to the likes of Boris Johnson.
Anyway, do you think we could stop the Israel talk before another thread is killed? This is mostly about the spread of the far right in Western European democracies and why it’s happening.
I thought we were discussing a demonstration in London, which involved elements of the far right, and happened to also involve Israel. Can't really separate that from the conversation. I can't see why the thread would be closed.
Sorry, must have missed that.
Unless you mean the far right inspired islamaphobic hate march that happened yesterday ?
In what way do you think that is either helpful or progressive?
Personally. I didn't find it to be inherently 'Islamophobic' (and I do know a thing or two about that issue), any more than the ceasefire demos are 'antisemitic'. So let's not sling baseless accusations around so easily. I accept that both 'sides' will undoubtedly have nasty elements, but isn't it better to look to what unites, rather than divides us?
but isn’t it better to look to what unites, rather than divides us?
CYCLING
No..wait...bloody roadies..
Tyres.. hang on.
Trail usage... this is getting difficult... 😕
Unless you mean the far right inspired islamaphobic hate march that happened yesterday ?
In what way do you think that is either helpful or progressive?
Personally. I didn’t find it to be inherently ‘Islamophobic’
And yet the march welcomed Boris Johnson, a man who a few pages ago you happily described as a far-right racist:
Boris has made many racist statements during his career, such as describing Muslim women wearing niqabs as ‘letterboxes’, referring to black people as ‘picanninies with watermelon smiles’, and stating that black people have low IQs. By that ‘metric’, I’ll happily call him ‘far right’.
This event has an impressive list of sponsors
And yet the march welcomed Boris Johnson, a man who a few pages ago you happily described as a far-right racist:
Boris was just one attendee. I'm sure there were other far-right characters there too; such events tend to attract them. From earlier:
I accept that both ‘sides’ will undoubtedly have nasty elements
Whilst the CAA and other groups present on Sunday might be viewed as 'right wing' by others, particularly left wing Jewish groups, I'm sure not all welcomed the presence of Boris Johnson and other figures. The same as how on pro-Palestinian demos, not all the speakers and prominent attendees will be welcomed by all of the crowd. That's how it is on such large demos. They tend not to be the echo chambers that small groups and demos can be. also, I doubt many on Sunday's march will see Boris Johnson as far-right, as I do. Some might in fact see him as too liberal. We all have differing perspectives.
I think my wife is attending that.