[Closed] The F1 Thread...

Helmet was intact in the pictures. Doctors have stated that the injury is was caused by sudden deceleration of the brain [within the skull]. Similar to shaken baby deaths.

I get that, but I've not seen a picture of the left side of the helmet. And I can't imagine that the force of the car hitting the truck would have been as bad as hitting a concrete wall, the truck moved a fair bit on impact.

I would assume that the helmet hit the truck, that stopped his head suddenly and caused the brain injury, but the strength of a modern helmet stopped any fractures/obvious injuries.

However, I am not a doctor or a fizzysist.

Edit - @ northernmatt - good point on the snagging roll hoop, didn't think about that.

If the FIA did decide that closed cockpits should be mandatory on F1 where does that leave all other open cockpit racing? Speeds of 125mph are easily reachable in most race series.

And would they ban motorbike racing all together!

What they'll enforce for future races will be that the recovery vehicles are capable of removing cars without going on the track side of the barriers - so more like cranes rather than loaders.

It's kind of strange they don't do that already - maybe it just needed an incident like this to provide the impetus. Even at an old track without much space it seems there is plenty of room to take a big mobile crane in behind the barriers to lift Sutil's car.

I can't imagine that the force of the car hitting the truck would have been as bad as hitting a concrete wall

They don't generally hit concrete walls head on.

Perez talks sense http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29551563 - we discussed above that drivers won't necessarily slow down that much when the SC comes out until they're behind it, but surely with a SC and waved double yellows they would, as it's not the same as waved double yellows without a SC when they are still racing. They should of course also get rid of the silly unlapping rule - does anybody have an explanation of what the supposed advantage of that is?

They don't generally hit concrete walls head on.

Bianchi didn't hit the truck head on either.

does anybody have an explanation of what the supposed advantage of that is?

I think it's to make the restarts a bit more interesting as technically they aren't allowed to overtake until the first safety car line which is somewhere between the last corner and the start/finish line and I think this uncludes lapped cars. Obviously if you have a Mercedes sat behind a lapped Caterham it'll have a massive straight line speed advantage and will have to hang back whereas the cars behind can keep their foot in.

It's all a moot point anyway as they are introducing standing starts after SC periods next year, which is just bloody stupid IMO.

It's all a moot point anyway as they are introducing standing starts after SC periods next year, which is just bloody stupid IMO.

No that got sensibly dismissed.

The unlapping cars thing is annoying and stupid. One of the reasons for the safety car is that it keeps all the cars in the same place on the track. If you let the lapped cars through you've no longer go them all together in the one place

I suspect they'll introduce something like a 75% delta time for any sector with double waved yellows.
Very easy to implement & police

Easy to enforce, not so easy for the drivers - don't forget they are still racing, so won't want to do 70% sector time if the chap just in front is doing 74.9%

The drivers can easily see if they're on target for the delta or not, if they choose to push the envelope, they're risking a penalty.
Pretty much the same as attacking the pit lane in and out, push it too far and you'll be coming back in.
They are driving to a delta now when catching the safety car

If the FIA did decide that closed cockpits should be mandatory on F1 where does that leave all other open cockpit racing? Speeds of 125mph are easily reachable in most race series.

And would they ban motorbike racing all together!

A change like this in F1 is not going to affect motorbike racing.

For other car based open cockpit racing - yes there is a risk. Plenty more flip overs in slower car racing and possibly less safe cars as smaller budgets but what gets developed for F1 does trickle down through improved understanding and analysis. Maybe they will get closed cockpits eventually, maybe not as at the end of the day F1 is much faster and longer races than any other open cockpit series.

With regards to the roll-hoop snagging: that is what I thought when I watched the video the other day. The car seems to not only snag but be pushed down and slam into the ground and seems to stop very quickly. It looked to me as though his head missed it, just.

And would they ban motorbike racing all together!

The FIA aren't the sactioning body of international motorcycle racing, that's the job of the FIM

So have his team released his telemetry yet? It'd be interesting to see what he was doing before under double-yellows and if he really had lifted right off as required.

So have his team released his telemetry yet?

According to this he was doing 132mph when he went off..

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/amateur-video-shows-green-flag-waving-at-time-of-bianchi-crash/

Ok and looking at this? (JB was doing 213km/h in the wet possibly trying to clawback time?)

[img] [/img]

He was going quickly to track and catch up to the rear/make capital on the safety car?

ALL drivers know you can't overtake under SC but MANY drivers know (and do) make capital to either capitalise on their position to the safety car (or pit).

This'd only stop when all cars have automatic limiters.

Is that fair to say?

He was going quickly to track and catch up to the rear/make capital on the safety car?

No, the safety car wasn't out

It's all a moot point anyway as they are introducing standing starts after SC periods next year, which is just bloody stupid IMO.

but it's going to be complicated to keep tyres warm etc.

Tyre warmers may also be banned from next season too. So no different to what will then be a normal start.

Tyre warmers may also be banned from next season too.

That's in doubt too and likely to be deferred until at least 2016 or until and if lower profile tyres come in.
At the Pirelli tyre tests in the heat of Bahrain they were unable to get the 2015 tyre up to temp without the use of warmers.
Without the temp, the pressures were too low to push hard to try and get heat into them - catch 22

I can't see them doing away with tyre warmers. Leaving the pits on stone cold tyres into the path of other cars with tyres at racing temps is a recipe for disaster.

Imagine all the fighting for position you get now when a car comes out the pits and that is all gone because of cold tyres. How does that improve the spectacle of F1, which is what [s]Bernie[/s] they always harp on about.

Now imagine that there is a car going round the outside of a car leaving the pits and that car makes a small mistake due to the cold tyres and you could have two cars out of the race and more than likely another SC period.

@jambalaya Daft isn't it.

@richmtb have a look [url= http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/1-2015%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%202014-06-29.pdf ]here[/url] on page 34 item 40.13

Or they have to use a softer compound which wears out faster and thus use more tyres which goes against the current drives to reduce waste.

Only option then would be to try and make tyres last longer and only way I can see that happening is reduce power to make tyres last longer which will be crap or shorten races which will reduce advertising revenue.

Or make the tyres less grippy (harder) and less reliant on heating up to grip - eg so that there's no need for warmers - obviously that then increases braking distances which is a safety issue...

Or make the tyres less grippy (harder) and less reliant on heating up to grip

that's kind of contradictory though. A harder tyre would be more reliant on heat to make it grip.

You could give them a limited number of harder tyres and no warmers so they would then have to drive slower. But that wouldnt make good racing.

No, I fundamentally mean to make a less grippy tyre. It's interesting though, we keep getting told that bigger (ie grippier) tyres would mean better racing but in the wet (unfortunate incidences notwithstanding) we get great racing and that's exactly when we effectively put less mechanical grip on the car.

As I said though, on safety grounds, I can't see that being approved.

No, the safety car wasn't out

So why was he driving so fast under double-yellow? 😐

Bernie wants to keep making it more interesting. I wonder what will happen after he goes? I'd like to see overtake overtake overtake not unstable cars Bernie.

Different reasons though.

I was saying to put bigger tyres on years ago when the made them narrow and put grooves etc on. But you also have to limit the aero. The thinking being more mechanical grip and less aero grip means less problems running close behind (reduced DF). But I can see the flip side as they will then just run low drag set-ups which will get messed up by running in dirty air. This is why racing was 'better' when all cars had rubbish aerodynamics. But now its a different sport. More team and strategy based.

In the wet we see great racing as the normal racing line is no longer so critical. Drivers will move around more finding grip. The cars will work differently to each other with some finding grip where others don't. Power application has to be a lot more restrained too so there is more time to make moves in a corner. And yes, more sliding around and more mistakes due to lack of grip helps.

In the dry with highly aero dependant grip drivers just can't/won't (if there is someone trying to pass them too) get close.

They could do things like provide maximum downforce coefficients and minimum drag coefficients which would also help the lower teams. It will be interesting to see the effect of the lower profile tyres too. Pirelli seem all for it and it's going to mean suspension has to be softer to compensate.

They are driving to a delta now when catching the safety car

As I (and Perez) pointed out, when the SC is out it is totally different as they are no longer racing, so they're not worried about dropping a bit below what they're allowed to do. The pit lane is also completely different as it has a fixed speed limit which is simple to implement with a speed limiter, no corners they have to slow down for and then maintain an average.

So why was he driving so fast under double-yellow?

How do you know he was driving fast? Do you know how fast they'd be going there if not yellow flagged?

Which does bring up another issue with delta times - what is it a delta time of? The fastest sector anybody has done in the race? The fastest sector done by that driver? Or the fastest sector done in the current conditions, and who defines that? Because 75% of dry running speed there might well have been too fast...

Shurely a simple solution is pit-lane speed limit for double waved yellows?

Did you even read the post just above yours?

aracer - Member
Which does bring up another issue with delta times - what is it a delta time of? The fastest sector anybody has done in the race? The fastest sector done by that driver? Or the fastest sector done in the current conditions, and who defines that? Because 75% of dry running speed there might well have been too fast...

Guess that race control could just make a call on it, but normally based on the current/previous lap pace?

By the way did anybody see Kevin's squeaky bum moment at the same point on the track ?

http://www.gfycat.com/LightheartedDescriptiveBullfrog

Shows the stream of water on the outside edge of the track.

Yup. Pit lane speed limit is 80km/h.

It would be the maximum they were allowed to travel at in a double waved yellow sector, which in the letter of the rules means that a driver should be slowed down and prepared to stop, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is exactly what happens in the pits.

It's not rocket science.

I thought Ricciardo was excellent again. Top bloke methinks.

My gut feeling is that a long hard look at driving under different flags will need to be looked at

Am I correct in thinking that the flag warning is shown on the steering wheel?

You get the feeling that the FIA haven't been that strict about driving under yellows and double yellows so the drivers have been pushing the rules. I think the FIA may have to face up to the need to be a bit stricter

I checked yes the flag status should be on the wheel. So poor visibility shouldn't be a issue

[url= http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1_racing/5282.html ]link[/url]

ampthill - Member

My gut feeling is that a long hard look at driving under different flags will need to be looked at

What do they expect the drivers to do when you have a precedent set showing they can get away with it.

For example Silverstone 2013: Rosberg put in not just a race pace sector under double yellows, but a purple- and what do race control do? Absolutely shit all.
They didn't even investigate it until RedBull complained, even then they took no action.

Slow down and be prepared to stop?
[img] [/img]

Yup. Pit lane speed limit is 80km/h.

It would be the maximum they were allowed to travel at in a double waved yellow sector

So you reckon a brake test on the circuit (approaching an incident) is a good thing? Do they get penalised for exceeding that if they don't manage to slow down before they cross the line which isn't visible on the circuit? Remember they are still racing.

I do love the way that suggesting things aren't rocket science allows you to not think them through properly.

retro83

I said

You get the feeling that the FIA haven't been that strict about driving under yellows and double yellows so the drivers have been pushing the rules. I think the FIA may have to face up to the need to be a bit stricter

You said

What do they expect the drivers to do when you have a precedent set showing they can get away with it.

For example Silverstone 2013: Rosberg put in not just a race pace sector under double yellows, but a purple- and what do race control do? Absolutely shit all.
They didn't even investigate it until RedBull complained, even then they took no action.

Aren't we agreeing

I'm confused

but that's single track for you

I can see the FIA wanting to link into the cars sytems and have a button they can press in race control that applies a speed limiter to all the cars.

I think it wouldnt be unreasonable to have the drivers use their pit lane limiter when in a waved double yellow and the light on the back alternated red-yellow when it is activated so they know they are pressing it. First double yellow could be a warning then the next marshal post before the incident is when they have to have their speed down. Quite simple.

I'm still thinking that an incident at 130R (for example) and making the drivers brake down from 300+ to 80 whilst racing would be interesting - or worse yet an incident just past 130R or indeed on the exit of Dunlop where this one was, and having them brake down from high speed whilst under high lateral Gs. At least with the pit lane limit, that generally happens where the speed is relatively low anyway - historically chicanes have been built into circuits before the pits to bring the speed down.

So you reckon a brake test on the circuit (approaching an incident) is a good thing?

Obviously not but if you go back to Suzuka the coverage cut to Hamilton at what looked liked Dunlop curve going quite slowly, presumably because of double waved yellows, and a Caterham came belting past him at near racing speed. This was just as they had called or were about the call the SC out.

Either LH was distracted by news of the accident or the Caterham was just trying to take advantage of the situation but it could have been nasty if they had gone into each other especially with the visibility being as bad as it was.

It doesnt have to be down to the pit lane limit though. I assume a different limit could be set when not in the pits or use a different button.

Another option is this 75% thing and they could decide on a typical race speed (and maybe a wet and dry one) through a section and then a signal can be sent to the cars to flash a light on the wheel if they are exceeding 75% of normal race speed through the section.

The point is there are lots of ways to do it. It just needs the drivers and FIA and teams to discuss a method that is easy to implement, reliable and easy to check drivers are sticking to it. I would rather see a cumulative over speed warning and penalty - ie if they spend more than 20% of the time in the yellow flag zone over the 75% limit they get a penalty instead of if they go over just once for a split second.

They will have plenty of ideas of what could work and what is doable.

I remember back in the 90s when the DTM cars would know exactly where they were on track (this is the kind of thing that you could use for this system but with a lot more updated systems) and change the suspension settings for each bend. Those cars were incredible and the racing was fantastic.

Active suspension is something I think should return to F1 as it is a valid technology for road cars and I think can make them safer. But I guess there are risks that if it fails you are probably going to crash and it's harder to build in a fail safe than other systems which could be one reason they use to outlaw it.

So Lotus to run Merc engines next year.

If they survive financially they could pose a threat to the middle order. They have to build a decent chassis too but given they alternate yearly between good car / bad car they're due a good 'un...

and then a signal can be sent to the cars to flash a light on the wheel if they are exceeding 75% of normal race speed through the section.

No need for anything else, the systems are already there and used extensively

Bottom left is tCurrDelta, letting them know whether or not they are up or down at any particular part of a lap (or sector) for the set delta
Drivers are used to driving to it

[img] [/img]

Yes- Lewis slowed down for the dbl yellows. The beeb commentators started grtting excited as though he had a problem until 'oh safety cars coming out'. They missed it (yellows) etc etc. Drivers (especially at this part of the season) want to keep a seat for next year so will bend the rules with excessive speed where possible.