[Closed] The F1 Thread...

Sliding under the tractor was such a freak accident that there was less protection for Bianchi

The leftside of his helmet hit the rear body

If you've read Prof. Sid Watkins' book

I have. But the ridiculousness of not being able to get hold of a sports car in Italy is beyond ironic.

the rear body of the tractor?

Yes but - theres a pic of a trackside Doctor holding both sides of his helmet to talk/examin him. I'm hoping he hit and deflected along the angled rear body and it was the air tunnel and pod that glanced/disintergrated and he only took a secondary blow. If it'd been his head first then the car - that photo/the way he is being looked at in the pic would look totally different.

From what I can see he hit/went under the counterweight, ie a massive piece of concrete hanging off the back of the tractor

Either way, parts of the car slid under the tractor and he'd have been better off hitting a concrete wall. Let's hope he recovers quickly

with reg's to my comment on bigger tyres - of course i mean bigger wet weather tyres - not only in width but diameter to give much deeper tread blocks and pattern
didnt they stop using the monsoon tyre because quite franks the f1 cars could not really run on them as they generated no heat and no downforce.

Is hartstein cashing in on branch's misfortune too?

I don't understand the anti-Hartstein crew.

He's more qualified, more experienced and better placed than anyone to give an opinion. If he was any closer he'd be silenced by Bernie. Again.

His pieces are balanced opinion; fair enough if you don't agree with him, but you need to respect that he's earned the right to it.

If it'd been his head first then the car

...then he would have been killed instantly at that speed. It must have been a secondary impact or a very shallow angle glancing blow

didnt they stop using the monsoon tyre because quite franks the f1 cars could not really run on them as they generated no heat and no downforce.

Unlike slicks, wet tyres in the wet don't really generate much heat at all and are designed to provide grip at low temperature in the wet - in fact when the track starts to dry out and they do start generating significant heat, they very quickly disintegrate. Like within 1 lap they can be history.

Tyres don't generate any downforce!

...then he would have been killed instantly at that speed. It must have been a secondary impact or a very shallow angle glancing blow

I'm hoping he saw it coming and ducked or lent to his right as much as he could whilst strapped in.

Scotchegg - the CAT deflected him through the gap by the look of the video, he would have it the barrier otherwise.

In fact I'm fairly convinced he was steering right to try and avoid the tractor, as the straight line from the corner takes him to the left of where the impact was (I worked that out following your comment, as I hadn't noticed the deflection before, and making it through the gap seemed all but impossible from the geometry - thanks). All but impossible to thread the gap under normal circumstances, so he would have hit the barrier as intended and not made it through to the concrete.

Not a lot of space there, as the other side of the concrete wall is 130R and they can't compromise the runoff from that, hence difficult to do much more with the runoff (according to http://www.racingcircuits.info/asia/japan/suzuka.html Dunlop was moved in 2001 to make more runoff space, and 130R was reprofiled a year later)

Having seen the video, if he survives, he's very lucky - it's horrific indeed, I wasn't expecting the speed.

Truly hope he makes it.

Maybe any tractor used on circuit should be fitted with some sort of impact absorption hardware, like the kind you see on the back of highway maintenance vehicles:

[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3935/15281818059_cf1d8f94ae_o.pn g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3935/15281818059_cf1d8f94ae_o.pn g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/69309759@N02/15281818059/ ]Truck[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/69309759@N02/ ]VeeeDubStar[/url], on Flickr

Obviously it would be difficult to have something like that all the way around a tractor without making it totally un-manouvrable and useless.

However, the overhang on the back of the tractor in the incident could not be at a worse height for the drivers head and needs to be addressed.

I'm hoping he saw it coming and ducked or lent to his right as much as he could whilst strapped in.

They are strapped in so tight, there is no chance of ducking out of the way! They can lean their head a little, but that's about all. It's always been an issue with open cockpit cars. At least they sit much lower down than they used to - just compare the seating position of a modern F1 car v 80's F1 car. I expect he did see it coming, but could do very little about it!

I expect he did see it coming, but could do very little about it!

I'm convinced he did - see my comment above about only hitting there because he'd steered to try and avoid it.

@moshimonster

i never said tyres produce downforce - but the do produce GRIP - and heat produces GRIP and therefore my comments about tyre size/depth/diameter and the non-use of the current monsoon tyre.

Not good news by the looks of it.

They have announced he has a diffuse axonal injury.

Would explain how his helmet looks fine (visor attached and opened normally) and no blood etc when they took his helmet off. Rapid deceleration or rotation so maybe a glancing blow or from when the roll hoop hit the tractor and the car did slow down very quick. 🙁

From wikipedia:

[i]Diffuse axonal injury (DAI) is one of the most common and devastating types of traumatic brain injury,[1] meaning that damage occurs over a more widespread area than in focal brain injury. DAI, which refers to extensive lesions in white matter tracts, is one of the major causes of unconsciousness and persistent vegetative state after head trauma.[2] It occurs in about half of all cases of severe head trauma.

The outcome is frequently coma, with over 90% of patients with severe DAI never regaining consciousness.[2] Those who do wake up often remain significantly impaired.[3]

Other authors state that DAI can occur in every degree of severity from (very) mild or moderate to (very) severe.[4][5] Concussion may be a milder type of diffuse axonal injury.[6][/i].

Poor bloke, I feel so sad for him. 🙁

back2basics - Member

OR, Perhaps there needs to be a second set of rules for when the race is declared a wet race, where teams are allowed to jack up the height of the cars and fit extra downforce

They already have this, e.g. after a dry quali if the race looks to be wet, they are allowed to change to a wet setup.

back2basics - Member
did anyone else see the major accident waiting to happen with DRS open on the straight going through big puddles on on overtake? one car was slipping around at the back big time and the driver had to cancel the DRS.
I thought a big spin and a collection of the car being overtaken was on the cards at one point.

This is already in place, DRS can be (and was) disabled by race control when conditions warrant it.

back2basics - Member

with reg's to my comment on bigger tyres - of course i mean bigger wet weather tyres - not only in width but diameter to give much deeper tread blocks and pattern

They *are* bigger in diameter, approx 5 mm. This allows the teams to run inters/drys when appropriate and still have decent aero, but give enough clearance under the plank to avoid aquaplaning in conditions warranting the full-wet.

back2basics - Member
didnt they stop using the monsoon tyre because quite franks the f1 cars could not really run on them as they generated no heat and no downforce.

Quite the opposite, they work at low heat and overheat quickly if the conditions are too dry. The downforce issue is due to a) running slower b) as above, raising the ride height.

the non-use of the current monsoon tyre

There hasn't been a proper monsoon tyre for years. Bridgestone used to refer to their full wet tyre as a monsoon tyre and called the inters a wet tyre. Confusing eh?

From what I can see he hit/went under the counterweight, ie a massive piece of concrete hanging off the back of the tractor

i never said tyres produce downforce - but the do produce GRIP - and heat produces GRIP and therefore my comments about tyre size/depth/diameter and the non-use of the current monsoon tyre.

But wet tyres do not need heat to generate grip. In fact they really do not like running hot at all. If the priority was to reduce aquaplaning, narrower tyres would be the answer. The main problem with wet running in F1 is the amount of power going through the wide rear tyres only and the cars are very light at low speed. Downforce helps to reduce aquaplaning at higher speeds up to a point.

F1 cars are about the most aquaplane resistant vehicles there are. They can corner in the wet massively faster than a road car and a rally car will only be marginally better than the road car. But this is due to their grip being generated by downforce so once they start spinning they lose grip entirely and keep going.

Feel sorry for the guy.

F1 cars are about the most aquaplane resistant vehicles there are

not sure about that.

At moderate speed ( around 120mph) in high downforce lets say the car is generating about 12kN downforce so it now appears to weigh about 3 times it's static weight ie around 2 ton so the weight of a large car. When you have a car that is actually only 690kg then you can corner very fast as you are generating a lot of grip compared to the centrifugal force trying to make you slide wide.

Another miss-match is inertia. An F1 car is ultimately a low mass so has low interia and is thus easier to deviate than a 2 ton car. So when it hits a bump or a load of standing water there will be more of an affect in terms of movement of the car, change in speed etc. In complete opposite think of a big truck hitting a bit of standing water compared to a little hatchback.

Then add to that F1 tyres are very wide. About 325mm actual tread width which is more than the real tread width you find on a large saloon car or most sportscars.

So we have a car that does not actually have that much 'weight' with low inertia and wide tyres. Lower than 120 it gets a lot worse. Higher it is obviously a lot better (square relationship). Maybe if you are doing 180mph then yes the F1 car will now weight about 5 times it's stationary weight but it won't be doing 180 round a bend, especially in the wet.

Yes they will still corner faster than pretty much anything due to favourable grip V centrifugal force but highly resistant to aquaplaning? hmmm

edit: + add in the potential for the barge board to hydroplane, how easy it is to spin up the drive wheels with all the power on tap and how you can suddenly lose a lot of your downforce due to an aerodynamic disturbance

At moderate speed ( around 120mph) in high downforce lets say the car is generating about 12kN downforce so it now appears to weigh about 3 times it's static weight ie around 2 ton so the weight of a large car.

Try driving a 2 tonne car round a corner at 120mph in the wet. Good luck.

I'll admit it's temperamental but an F1 car can drive faster than almost any other car before aquaplaning. Other cars will have either aquaplaned at a much lower speed or never go fast enough to suffer the effect. Any car can avoid aquaplaning by being heavy and slow.

[url= http://www.f1today.net/en/news/hamilton-signs-for-mclaren-for-2015 ]Hamilton to Mclaren for 2015??[/url] Never saw that one coming! it will be interesting to see if its true

Got to be bollocks that?

an F1 car can drive faster than almost any other car before aquaplaning.

[url= http://www.f1today.net/en/news/alonso-locked-in-tough-negotiations-with-mclaren ]Same website two hours earlier[/url] so I'd not believe it

jfletch - I was an F1 race engineer in a previous life. They are very prone to aquaplaning when there is standing water around as explained very well by andyl above. Yes they can be driven extremely fast in the wet IF there is little or no standing water and hence low risk of aquaplaning. One time we were at Silverstone there was a sudden heavy downpour that caused standing water (actually more like a small stream) flowing across Becketts. The cars just spun off one after the other even when backing off massively.

Basically when it is wet enough to cause standing water on the track, the SC is out and the cars really have to concentrate on not falling off behind it. Wide tyres, low weight, low ride heights and massive power does not make for great aquaplaning protection!

So hamilton and alonso teammates at mclaren again? Or does it leave a seat for Alonso at Merc. Both options I'd like to see

LH to McLaren? Sorry I don't believe it full stop. Based on their management/structure at the moment? That'd be a gamble of epic proportions. Would the Honda engine be better than a Merc. Yes Mclaren are customers of Merc but still- they aren't exactly doing well with the rest of the car and.....the management turmoil.

So hamilton and alonso teammates at mclaren again?

Rosberg looking like another decent driver being flattered by a very good car - but when it's not going his way he reverts to [dirty] tactics.

I had the misfortune of working with Rosberg for a couple of seasons (thankfully not as his race engineer). Arrogant little shit he was too. Not massively talented compared to some, but to be fair he does seem to have progressed and earned some respect from his peers.

Hamilton may be tempted by the prospect of being a certain No.1 driver (if they kept Magnussen). No hope of that in Mercedes.

And being in at the start of something again may be rewarding to him - he's shown he has the patience to have an off year or two if the rewards are there.

Can't see it happening though!

LH to McLaren? Sorry I don't believe it full stop.

Me either. Its not called silly season for nothing though

Try driving a 2 tonne car round a corner at 120mph in the wet. Good luck.

You didn't read what I wrote about cornering did you?

Just because a road is wet it doesnt mean you are going to aquaplane. As I already said the F1 car will corner faster than anything else due to a favourable grip V centrifugal force. But, if it hits an area of standing water it has more chance of aquaplaning than something that has a more favourable weight to tread footprint.

F1 cars are driven right on the cusp of losing grip. Closer than pretty much anything else and the cars are more capable of being driven so than any other car. Margins of error are tiny but that is why they are driven by the best drivers in the world and they do make it look easy because they are constantly reacting and correcting things to keep that car balanced on a knife edge. Sometimes they fall off as they push too much or make a mistake, sometimes the nature of the cars means they have no chance (such as aquaplaning).

richmtb - Member
LH to McLaren? Sorry I don't believe it full stop.
Me either. Its not called silly season for nothing though

Are you American? (sigh).

Are you American? (sigh).

No. Are you Irish? (Are we just guessing nationalities or did you last post have a point?) (sigh)

I think the above is referring to 'full stop'.

I've just read the links about LH - very odd. McLaren do seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment. Maybe LH is thinking if he can win this year and get another championship under his belt then go help McLaren build a car for 2016?

The real winner here will be Alonso if he gets the mercedes seat and i think it would a case of him having even more skills off the track than on it to be able to engineer such a situation somehow as he kicked off this whole round of swaps. He's got a career in big business if he ever wants to quit F1!

Alonso and Rosberg at mercedes next year? That is going to an interesting team to be a fly on the wall at!

I think the above is referring to 'full stop'.

Americans say "period" and besides I was quoting Hora.

Anyhoooo....

LH is going nowhere.

Realistically Alonso only has one choice and that's Mclaren. I agree they are a bit of a shambles at the minute. Even Ron Dennis returning has not be able to change Mclaren's "suboptimal" performance.

Be interesting to see what Mclaren do with JB and Magnussen. They could probably use a second experienced driver to help them develop the 2015 car, but he'll probably price himself out of any negotiations and Mclaren will drop him and just keep Magnussen.

Which is a shame but the most likely outcome.

Lewis stayed 1-2 seasons too long at Mclaren however hes made a shrewd move once already, twice if you'd class landing a seat as a rookie in a Mclaren. I doubt he'll make a backward step. He'll know how good the Merc is now and how dominant it is and how woeful McLaren are. Maybe a move to McLaren in 2016 after another year at Merc.

If he has another race like Japan where he shows his coolness I bet Nico implodes. After all the last race he kept repeating how lucky Lewis was. Really Luck?

But, neither would doing nothing result in that, seeing as it's still over 20 years since a driver was killed. They're already too trigger happy with the SC - they were practically on inters when it came in after the start.

Just to this point a little while back, Jenson has said that at Suzuka, the tarmac tends to hold water which means that the spray is a massive issue until it's almost ok for inters - which is exactly why they changed to inters not long after the SC came in.

As to LH to McL, you never know for sure but the smart money is on moving there in 2016 once you know if Honda have made a decent engine. Of course there could be some blocks if say Alonso is already there but IMO it's a qualified risk - it seems unlikely that Honda will make a fundamentally better engine than Merc and McL have hardly been setting the world on fire with their chassis in recent years.

I can't see LH going to Mclaren although Mercedes have made it clear they are looking to reduce his deal.

@moshimonster, nice job !