[Closed] The F1 Thread...

Trouble is that the breakdowns/problems they've had haven't been through pushing too hard, have they - they're one off/silly problems rather than failed gearboxes or engines (sorry, PUs)

True.

IMHO F1 has been in a steady decline for a number of years. Recently it's as if the rulemakers are throwing gimmicky solutions into the mix out of desperation like DRS, KERS etc. They've even been looking at fitting skid plates to the underside of cars to bring back the sparking undertrays and have tested trumpet exhausts to try and enhance the croaking amphibian noise of the new cars, which smacks of utter desperation to me.

Then there's Bernie and his obsession with money, making everything look "just so" (to the point of dictating how teams should park their motorhomes and support vehicles) and courting the glamorous few over the multitude of fans who save for their tickets. The drivers are as well versed with PR as they are handling a racing car, they all seem to polished, anodyne and boring...F1 has disappeared up it's own fundament. I'm quite depressed at the state of it all now.

People say that but do the viewing figures actually match that?

F1 has unquestionably been very poor at using social or even just modern media to promote itself. Bernie apparently can't understand how they'd make money from it so isn't interested.

People say that but do the viewing figures actually match that?

Whether they do or not, I'm past caring. Given the choice of watching Button, Hamilton and Alonso battling it out on track or heading out for a ride around my local loop, I take the latter every time.

Well yes but it's not usually a straight choice of one or the other for most people...

The Abu Dhabi GP, for me, sums up everything that is wrong with F1 because

1. They are only in it because they could pay more than one of the classic tracks to be on the calendar, rather than any racing (or indeed any kind whatsoever) heritage or associaion with the sport. Much like qatar for the footie WC.

2. They paid a bit more still to be the last race of the year, so more likely to have the title decided there.

But, in the last few years the title has been sorted long before the last race, so....

3. I'm guessing here, but I reckon they paid a lot more still to some people to get double points for their race, to virtually guarantee that it was decided there, without saying 'Bugger the rest of the season, whoever wins here is world champion.

the funny hing is despite all the hate..... it is still watched.

The switch back to titanium skid blocks isn't to add sparks to the show but to prevent the teams running the cars scraping the floor and just bolting on a wear-resistant skid block to comply with the rules.

Should make Singapore look spectacular next year though!!

No, it's to make sparks 🙂

The plank is there to stop cars scraping on the ground. That teams may have worked out ways to reduce how much it wears is incidental.

The plank is there to stop cars scraping on the ground. That teams may have worked out ways to reduce how much it wears is incidental.

Yep, they reduce the wear by adding lumps of metal to the bits that touch the ground under the ruse of "mounting plates". These plates are highly resistant to wear so they can run the plank on the ground all race long and it won't wear down. These "mounting plates" will now have to be made of titanium which wears at a similar rate to the composite plank so will force the teams to raise the height of the floors. It was all triggered by the infra-red pictures showing the Red Bulls dragging the leading edge of the floor along the ground sufficiently to heat it up to 100 degrees but still not wear over the 1mm allowed.

Bernie and CVC are screwing F1 over. Advertisers want coverage. Sky coverage although its good quality doesn't give complete market coverage for sponsors.

Tiny teams go to the wall all the time and tbh not a bad thing as most of the time its a joke trundling around the back of the grid. The problem is attracting sponsorship- this affects most of the field.

I know about the RB tea tray but the real reason to suddenly 'solve' the problem is to get sparks, not to ensure plank wear.

[quote=andyl ]Looks like Button is out of F1 unless he can find another drive.

Is there any more news on that, or still just the same rumours? He is certainly one of the classiest drivers in F1, but suffers from not seeming to be as fast as he is. But then I'm a fan, and I'd have to admit that he's probably not ultimately quite as fast a driver as LH and Alonso in most situations. It's always so good to see a head to head battle between him and Alonso (who despite what failings he might have is also very classy on the racetrack) as we briefly had this weekend - you know both of them will push things to the limit but never in a way which is dangerous or unfair.

[quote=hora ]I remember a wheel coming off a certain racing drivers car which benefited Damon Hill

Well apart from Hill not needing the help because he was already winning and JV wasn't going to get near him.

People say that but do the viewing figures actually match that?

Yes globally even F1 noted a 10% drop between 2012-13 (obviously 2014 figures aren't complete yet) mostly seen in China and Brazil, but also Germany and UK.

Some interesting analysis of the recent US race viewing figures here:

[url= https://f1broadcasting.wordpress.com/ ]F1 Broadcasting blog[/url]

Viewing figures in the UK are definitely down, although I'd suggest mostly due to it being on Sky as opposed to free to air. The worry is that as cricket is finding, you don't bring new people into the sport by hiding it on pay per view, unless it is something as big as football.

Then look at this graph to see the rising costs to the UK broadcasters. I'd say it's unsustainable as it is.

[img] [/img]

lets also put some blame on the big teams wanting bigger piece of the cake and not caring / blocking rules that make the whole field 'fairer' . they have a lot to answer for.

since the Ferrari / McLaren battles of Schumi v Hakk/Rakk its gone down hill - probably around the time Bernie sold it to the "Banks" and all interest for them was maximizing profit - and the way to do that is to squeeze it all out of the billionairs of the middle east and the cash-rich governments who fund the new circuits....
and of course keep the TV rights holders happy with viewing figures, and the way to do that is more overtaking and championships going to the wire....
funnny though the FIA also approved these rules....

Tiny teams go to the wall all the time and tbh not a bad thing as most of the time its a joke trundling around the back of the grid.

But they do provide an entry point/stepping stone to new drivers, such as Mark Webber and Fernando Alonso getting drives at Minardi. If all you have are the mega teams, that won't happen.

I think the idea is that the third car will have a rookie driver. Although I'm not sure how long that will last for!

[b]aracer[/b] Is there any more news on that, or still just the same rumours? He is certainly one of the classiest drivers in F1, but suffers from not seeming to be as fast as he is. But then I'm a fan, and I'd have to admit that he's probably not ultimately quite as fast a driver as LH and Alonso in most situations. It's always so good to see a head to head battle between him and Alonso (who despite what failings he might have is also very classy on the racetrack) as we briefly had this weekend - you know both of them will push things to the limit but never in a way which is dangerous or unfair.

Just this source so not confirmed: http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/9549099/-Alonso-closing-in-on-McLaren-move-

Button did say at the weekend he would drive with Alonso which might be a sign of desperation.

He does suffer from not being very noticeable in races and this year a woeful car and poor strategy decisions by the team seem have screwed him over. But when he gets a chance to fight it out with people the class of his driving is obvious. Firm but respectful and no silly moves.

He is certainly one of the classiest drivers in F1, but suffers from not seeming to be as fast as he is

Agree Button seems to be perpetually underrated, him and Alonso going at it was one of the highlights of the US race. On his day he's as good as any of them IMO, although it's probably true to say that his day doesn't come round quite often enough to put him up there with the top few. That still makes him one of the best on the grid though so it'd be a shame if he wasn't there next year.

I reckon Button and Alonso would make a great pairing, but that said I guess McLaren need to think about where they'll be in a couple of years when Alonso's gone and Button will be thinking about retiring if he hasn't already.

Honda are keen on Button as he is a Japanophile and his experience will be valuable as they come back in with McLaren

IMO Button is already out he will be at Porsche next year WEC.

McLaren will give K-Mag another year if he doesn't turn out good he will get the boot and be replaced by Vandoorne for 2016.

F1 clearly has money worries and I don't feel that Eccleston has been a good stuard of F!

But there seems to be some rose tinted spectacles about the old days

There was time when a genuine place change in race was rare and a proper over take a notable event

The cars were so heavily Aero loaded you could see any car any where near the back the car in front grind to a hault

I've heard it said before that if Button can get his car set up 100% spot on for him then he's as fast as anyone else, but he struggles more than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso when the car is less than perfect and needs to be wrestled round.

The interesting thing coming out of the small team situation is that we're seeing CVC come to the fore. CVC have realised that this us potentially damaging their investment and clearly don't have confidence that Bernie is handling it appropriately. Maybe caterham will do what the German courts couldn't and take him away from his job.

Though talking of rose tinted specs about the old days, we shouldn't forget what f1 was like when Bernie took over. Poorly organised races, terrible TV coverage -he got a lot sorted out but maybe lost sight of where to stop.

@thepurist - totally agree - and i stated in my post Bernie swung from "let the teams die and the bigger teams do 3 cars" to towing the CVC line of "helping them because its good for the sport"
I often wonder if Bernie has some pictures/evidence over CVC because i thought they would have fired his ass by now!!!

It would seem bernie is as much or a liability as he is a dinosaur. Those shady deals dont cut it anymore and clearly those deals are being brought into the light.

To save F1 they should sack Bernie and use his salary to bolster the back field. Clearly F1 is just mirroring the premiership haves and have nots as well as the ppv tv rights model. And look how the gap between the top and bottom has grown. The problem is f1 doesnt have promotion / demotion parachute payments.

I think CVC thought(hoped!) Bernie may have popped his clogs by now.

Re the money - if the small teams were prepared to go racing on a budget of $40 million dollars then why not set that as the minimum revenue for TV rights (for a max of 12 teams). Any monies above this would be down to the team to raise and if they can't run a team on that then tough.

It would be good to see at least 2 or 3 top teams battling it out properly for supremacy, since the rule change when Brawn jumped head & shoulders above everyone else it's been massively dominated by just one team, which is a shame.

F1 has always been a rich mans plaything, but it does seem like it's becoming less accessible to your average fan which in the long term will cost it as interest declines.

Some interesting stuff on [url= http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/11/us-grand-prix-how-ricciardo-beat-williams-pair-and-the-curious-case-of-sebastian-vettel/ ]James Allen on F1.[/url] Looks like Bottas and Massa were let down by strategy and Vettel, well...

A good breakdown of the finances in F1 and makes clear why Williams/Lotus are unlikely to mount a serious challenge in the near future

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29905081

Oh and the post above about CVC coming to the fore seems to be right:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29888406

Donald MacKenzie, co-chairman of F1's largest shareholder, CVC Capital Partners, phoned Lotus boss Gerard Lopez and promised to address their concerns.

A good breakdown of the finances in F1 and makes clear why Williams/Lotus are unlikely to mount a serious challenge in the near future

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29905081

I wonder if Benson pulled those figures from where he usually does.

🙂 Possibly but they roughly seem to tie in with what I've heard elsewhere

Hmmm, not sure if i believe Andrew Benson's figures

He's trying to describe the Concord Agreement, an agreement which team bosses will not disclose to avoid serious litigation from the FIA and CVC

I used to be a F1 fan, avidly watching all the races, getting up at silly o'clock to see the Japanese GP etc. etc.
About five years or so ago I started to fall asleep on the sofa 'watching' the races, in the past two years I haven't watched one all the way through and now I don't even bother setting the recorder to wizz through the dullness for any action.

So I guess I am an ex-fan. Most of this is down to the personalities involved, their arrogance, the politics (both internal F1 and the way they suck up to dodgy regimes)and the lack of real racing.

If I am typical, then Bernie has a real problem on his hands

I don't even bother setting the recorder to wizz through the dullness for any action.

You've missed a lot of action this year then - there have been some cracking races!

Meh
If you want to see real racing, attend an Historic meet, such as a VSCC event or Goodwood Revival

I agree with muffin man, I have really enjoyed this season. I'm feeling weirdly indifferent about it now- especially because I'm a LH fan. I think it may be the double points, it kind of makes a lot of the effort at the end of the season seem a bit pointless (almost literally)

If you want to see real racing, attend an Historic meet, such as a VSCC event or Goodwood Revival

Yep - I do that too.

the problem with the Goodwood Revival is it doesn't really capture that "carry on racing while your fellow competitor burns to death in his crashed car" atmosphere.

Sorry about the meh line, it's just that I cannot summon up any interest at all in it any more, the drivers I used to admire seem to be coming to the end of their careers (Button, Massa, Raiikkonen) the others (esp. LH) irritate me with their attitude. I'd rather spend the time and energy on something else now.

I can see that others enjoy it, that's great for them, it is just that, with a small tinge of regret, it's not for me anymore

If you want to see real racing, attend an Historic meet, such as a VSCC

Done that and while it's great as a one off, I find that I just don't really care about the results of the races enough to find it exciting/interesting longer term.

Done that and while it's great as a one off, I find that I just don't really care about the results of the races enough to find it exciting/interesting longer term.

Ah, you see for me, the fact that you can get up close to the machines, chat to the drivers, see them race hard and then go back and discuss the good/bad outcomes face to face makes it so much more involving as an experience. With a very few exceptions, they are enthusiasts as well and are very willing to talk. Also, for me it has always been as much about the engineering as the racing.
To me now, this:

Is much more interesting than this:

The first taken from 3 feet away, the second with a very long lens

Look how dull this season is, 14 races won by Mercedes and the other 3 by Red-Bull. Jesus what a yawn fest. Even in the Vettel years there was more variety of winners than now. You have to go back over 10 years to find such a dominance over a whole season. The new engine rules have spun everything so much towards Mercedes power, that anyone not using their engines with the exception of Red Bull may as well pull out and forget turning up.

I'm not sure that the number of winners defines good racing though. For me, there have been some brilliant races this year and good racing for the podium for the non-Mercs.

Senna/Prost is considered a classic season and one mishap aside, would have had only two winners.

To me now, this:

Is much more interesting than this:

The first taken from 3 feet away, the second with a very long lens

You'll be able to get up close to the current Merc F1 car in around 20 years time when it's racing in a classic F1 series!

You'll be able to get up close to the current Merc F1 car in around 20 years time when it's racing in a classic F1 series!

[quote=jimw ]About five years or so ago I started to fall asleep on the sofa 'watching' the races, in the past two years I haven't watched one all the way through

Most of this is down to ... the lack of real racing.

Does not compute. How much "real racing" was there 5 or more years ago? Personally I'd stopped watching F1 due to the lack of interesting racing, but have started watching again over the same sort of timescale.

[quote=dragon ]Look how dull this season is, 14 races won by Mercedes and the other 3 by Red-Bull. Jesus what a yawn fest. Even in the Vettel years there was more variety of winners than now. You have to go back over 10 years to find such a dominance over a whole season.

Over 10? Look at this thrill fest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Formula_One_season

While I accept 2004 was dull it at least had 6 individual winners of GPs, so far this season we've had 3!!

Maybe people with rose tinted glasses do think 1989 was great, but I never did, I completely gave up watching around that time as it was a dull fest.

For me ultimately an exciting season has a variety of winners and you don't know who will win when you turn on the TV. Sure more passing lower down keeps things interesting during the race, but I don't think many people turn on to see a great overtake to move from position 10th to 9th.

Don't get me wrong - I think 2010 was the most amazing season where we had 5 drivers in it until near the end and even then we didn't know who'd come out on top but variety in winners isn't the only criteria for a good season, for me at least.

2008 season, 7 drivers won races, 6 different pole setters, 6 fastest lap setters, 6 different constructors won races
2009 season, 6 different drivers won races, 8 different pole setters, 10 different fastest lap setters, four constructors won races
So far, 2014 season, 3 drivers have won races, 3 different pole setters, 7 different fastest laps, two constructors won races

2008 season, 7 drivers won races, 6 different pole setters, 6 fastest lap setters, 6 different constructors won races
2009 season, 6 different drivers won races, 8 different pole setters, 10 different fastest lap setters, four constructors won races
So far, 2014 season, 3 drivers have won races, 3 different pole setters, 7 different fastest laps, two constructors won races

I'm not saying this year is perfect. Hopefully as the tec' beds in the teams will be more balanced

But your stats don't show that once the race had started the order could remain fairly static

Sort of makes my point

[url= http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/5/12039.html ]Linkyy[/url]

The highlight of this year has been Ricciardo making Vettel look very ordinary.

I'm not sure I'd call that THE highlight but it's certainly brought Alonso's comments about Vettel into sharp focus.

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/140447.html

"Time will tell us, but I think when he will have a car like the others, if he wins he will have a great recognition and he will be one of the legends of Formula One," Alonso told the BBC.

"When one day he has the car like the others and he is fourth, fifth or seventh then these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four days even in a worse manner than what they are doing now. So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."

Mind you I don't buy into him being rubbish - many drivers have had bad seasons when the car just didn't suit them - but I do think he has been fortunate to some extent with his four titles in that he had the best car most of the time but also a team mate who while quick, couldn't adjust to the exhaust blowing style to get the same speed as him and therefore didn't really provide much competition (compare to Rosberg for example)

For me ultimately an exciting season has a variety of winners and you don't know who will win when you turn on the TV.

It could be HAM or ROS. You just don't know.

The reason Senna/Prost in '88 is seen as a classic and 2014 may be seen as a bit dull is nothing to do with the on track action. It's the personalities involved and the drama of it all. But with the ammount of money at stake now everyone has to tow the PR line. The Rosberg Hamilton spat hasn't been allowed to become public and Merc put a lid on it after Spa.

Also Hamiltion has destroyed Rosberg.

Interesting diagram from Joe Seward - a very respectable journalist about the distribution of funds - so maybe my earlier post was wide of the mark 🙁

[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/15099282403_a4050d6137_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/15099282403_a4050d6137_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/p1gLBe ]f1-money-supply[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/67749037@N02/ ]boltonjon[/url], on Flickr

See 😉

by my reckoning there's enough movement between the teams that they know what each other are being paid and currently there's plenty of self interest in getting the numbers out there to ramp up the pressure on CVC and the FIA which is why this is coming out now despite the high level of secrecy normally.

[quote=dragon ]While I accept 2004 was dull it at least had 6 individual winners of GPs, so far this season we've had 3!!
Maybe people with rose tinted glasses do think 1989 was great, but I never did, I completely gave up watching around that time as it was a dull fest.
For me ultimately an exciting season has a variety of winners and you don't know who will win when you turn on the TV.

As jfletch suggests, the winner has actually been far less predictable this year than 2004. The fact there has been a limited pool doesn't make for uninteresting racing - I'm not sure how it's any more exciting to have Vettel win from pole one week, LH win from pole the next, Alonso from pole the week after. So far this year 9 race winners weren't on pole, 6 of those weren't even on the front row. In 2008 (touted above for the variety of race winners) 10 race winners weren't on pole, only 4 of those weren't on the front row. Which year has been more unpredictable when you switch the TV on for the race on a Sunday? I wonder which year has had more overtaking in the first 3 or 4 places...

Sure more passing lower down keeps things interesting during the race, but I don't think many people turn on to see a great overtake to move from position 10th to 9th.

You're probably right, though it does provide a bit of entertainment when the leader pisses off into the distance from the start, which has been happening regularly for well over 10 years. However I think most people would like to watch a scrap for 3rd or 4th, which has certainly been happening plenty this year and far more so the last few years than the processional ones before.

Its been a great season and the main two drivers have been allowed to RACE!!

Riccardo whopping Vettel has been great as has the resurgence of Williams

I think 2014 has been a vintage year - far better than the last few years

The politics has also been pretty fascintating

I'll be sad when the season finishes 🙁

[img] [/img]
Is the next race in Sparta?

I'll bet £50 Lewis car breaks down to allow the other fella to win by 1 point during the last race / double points system. German team, german driver etc. Cue conspiracy theorists...

On the other hand, Bernie might see Lewis as the "peoples" champ after Rosberg made himself less popular. Cue conspiracy theorists...

I'll bet £50 Lewis car breaks down to allow the other fella to win by 1 point during the last race / double points system. German team, german driver etc. Cue conspiracy theorists...

If we're going with team consiparcy theories.. (which I dont buy) I think Merc would much rather LH wins the championship.

Who is a better ambassoder / marketing tool for mercedes globably, Rosberg Or Hamilton?

The yanks are lapping Hamilton up ATM. The US is a pretty important market for European car companies.

For me, this season has been the best for years and one that I have tried to make sure I watch each race of.

Yes, looking at the results you can say it's boring because Merc have dominated but the raw figures don't tell the whole story. The races have been more enjoyable to watch. Even when the winner is clear, the racing within the mid-pack has been very enjoyable to watch.

And some of Ricciardo's overtaking moves this year have been pretty gob smacking (as well as some of the other driver's to be fair).

I thnk Vergne has been the man to watch this year. Some of his overtakes have been nailbiting. It's made the last few laps worth watching.

[url] https://twitter.com/danielt_johnson/status/530699203451056128 [/url]

End of the line for Marussia - administrators have confirmed they have ceased trading and staff made redundent.

Sounds like Marussia have now gone.

https://twitter.com/danielt_johnson/status/530700666671742977

Jinx!

three words

three
car
teams

three words

disaster

for

f1

(longterm) 🙂

The tail end teams mean that well funded teams aren't at the back of the grid. We saw before that manufacturers leave F1 when it suits because it's so expensive and no one wants to be running a team costing a lot that's in last place.

The solution is to ensure that there's a bit more money for the lower end teams to ensure that they don't go bust and can at least remain vaguely in the race.

I wonder if its Bernies wish to take f1 to the grave with him to prove a point.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29954250
I dont normally take too much notice of EJ but he does touch on a few points regarding the increased costs due to the new hybrid engines which Bernie was so vehemently against. No wonder he wants it to fail. Aside from that he needs to get some more cash to recoup the cost of paying off the German government.

CVC better get their act together before Bernie destroys f1 and scares off any investors out there. ( quote from bernie, " its my fault and I dont know what to do") .

he needs to get some more cash to recoup the cost of paying off the German government.

He loses more than that down the back of the sofa.

This bit from Button himself makes it sound very much like he's as good as gone from McLaren, and (by extension it seems) from F1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29939341

and that there are lots of other challenges in other sports that he is interested in taking on.

This got me wondering whether he'll leave Motorsport and try his hand in a few competitive triathlons.

but all of this could be the reason why Alonso is still wavering on signing

perhaps (and we dont know it yet publicly) the the deal is already done for 3 car teams for 2015 between the big guys and bernie
............and the reason for the lack of any *real* commitment and *real* money to keep these lower teams afloat ..............

who knows what lies, smoke and mirrors are being peddled by bernie/the big teams yet behind the scenes they are rubbing their hands with glee and more money coming to them and not suppling engines (pu) at a loss to small teams.

also rules can certainly be tweeked by the big teams, even as the season starts, which will quickly clarify the whole thing about will the 3rd car attain WDC or Constructor points, and something along the lines of "if 3 cars finish from the same the team, the one in the lowest points scoring position does not get constructor points, but does get WDC points"

The deal for 3 car teams was done years ago. As soon as the number of cars drops below 16 (or teams below 8 ) the remaining teams are obliged to enter 3 cars.

although three car teams would make it less a joke at the back of the field it'd turn me firmly off as it'd mean the top teams would firmly block out the top.

Imagine a Mercedes 1-2-3 (or whoever is dominant in the future?) NOT every race of course, there would still be a redbull etc in P2 or P3 but every so often you'd get a 1-2-3.

Other racing me thinks..

yeah but what you have to remember is
the big F1 teams dont care about the fans
they care about the money
and
bernie dont care about the fans
bernie cares about the money

so...

it makes sense from their POV.

If they go to 3 cars and don't make them full points earning cars, the races will be poorer for it IMO
The teams will attempt to use the 3rd car tactically as a blocker if they can (their own personal safety car), all sorts of shenanigans will be attempted to the detriment of the race as a whole.

I do hope Jules Bianchi's care is taken into account when they folded. The idea of folding to remove the creditors liabilities is possible and then selling the assets for a nominal fee to re enter next year.

It could be the case marussia dont have engines for next year in the absence of bianchi driving for them so the short fall is huge in the budget for next year ( also no money from marussia). Either way its sad to see the privateer teams go when they give young drivers a leg up into f1. It does smell a tad fishy when Bernie already proclaimed the teams are dropping out before the end of the year and 3 cars could be a reality a few months ago.