The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people - they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people - they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo. We get different reporting (propaganda if you see it yhat way). We know that our debt : GDP ratios are better than the UK when bank bail outs are included. We know the euro has made trade and travel easier and given us a more stable, though irritatingly stong, currency. We know that our economies aren't threatened any more by Greece than the US is by California. We know we have a quality of life and health/education systems that mean we have the human capital to ride out storms that will leave others beached or sunk.

Tell that to the Spanish with their 20% umemployment, Edukator.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo

Weeeeeeell.....I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to Britain in Europe to be honest fella, I don't feel all that strongly either way. What I'm pretty sure about is that the public havent been asked for their view for a long long time. Sorry if that comes across as zealotry.

As for the British Media, here's a few newspapers that supported (campained for) UK membership of the Euro.

The Guardian
The Independent
The Financial Times
The Daily Mirror

The anti-Euro press

The Times
The Telegraph
The Sun
The Express
The Mail

Lets agree to leave out the Star and the People, thats 4 pro, 5 anti, this is hardly Putin's Russia or Berlusconi's Italy. We all have a choice of paper to read......

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

more people vote in big brother than in an election

wtf would you let them vote on pulling out of the uks biggest trade partnership?

the torries have been happy to pander to media hysteria and xenophobia when it comes to europe for the last 15 years,
infact they still do, look at theresa may repeating a lie about eu laws, an assylum seeker and his cat, 1st told by nigel farage!, prefaced with 'this is not a lie', at their confrence
the sun, star, murdoch press, express, mail,telegraph have been spouting this same bollox for years, just look how many jump up on here waving their anti-euro hard-ons about- at the mere whiff of a referendum.
yet even the cons know we are better off in europe than out

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

The idiots that buy the Sun, Express and Daily Mail (and actually believe what they read)? Those papers dominate the print media in terms of circulation, and they all absolutely disgraceful.

They are routinely filled with outrageous lies and distortions about the EU (and lots of other things), with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

I lived in Spain for a year and soon figured that of the 20% unemployed (the figure was exactly the same 20 years ago) the majority were working in the black economy.

OK so we've now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?

it's for their own good 🙄

with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

Oh grum you are the very best.

[img] [/img]

Edukator - good for you and for your enthusiasm and positivity. I hope that you are correct but fear that you are not. The phrase

though irritatingly stong, currency

So Grum - I agree with your sentiments (at least here and in part) but what do you do about it? As Mcboo points out, whose fault is it that the RW press sell more. Of course, the fact that any political debate is framed by the tabloid press is a difficult one. Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.

FWIW, the FT, The Economist and the BBC have, in my opinion, been biased towards Europe - but when you look at the FT circulation figures, what does it matter what "your banker friends" 😉 read?

OK so we've now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?

it's for their own good

No just people that aren't idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though.

Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.

I don't personally see that having a 'free press', an apparent cornerstone of democracy, means letting newspapers peddle vile bigoted lies to millions of people.

. Really not worth the effort.

By which you mean only people who agree with your opinion, I assume?

Like where I said this?

I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though.

OK, so everyone defending open referenda- do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner? We've seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country.

It's not a particularily pleasant truth but when I put my ideals up against the reality, reality wins.

No just people that aren't idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though

not people like you of course? - you'll be way, way above that level

We've seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country,[s] and it stinks.[/s] I throw a tantrum if my side loses

Fixed

mcboo - Member

Fixed

Very good. Answer the question?

"do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner?"

Here's what passes for journalism in one of our most popular newspapers.

The story said: "Callous asylumseekers are barbecuing the queen's swans. East European poachers lure the protected Royal birds into baited traps, an official Metropolitan Police report says."

Presswise asked the police about the alleged incidents and found that no one had been charged with any such offence in relation to swans.

The Sun printed a clarification on page 41 of the paper on Saturday that was agreed with the PCC.

It stated: "While numerous members of the public alleged that the swans were being killed and eaten by people they believed to be Eastern European, nobody has been arrested in relation to these offences and we accept that it is not therefore possible to conclude yet whether or not the suspects were indeed asylum-seekers."

According to Presswise, The Sun has not gone far enough.

A spokesman said: "There is no solid evidence to support a sensational story that has entered the public imagination, yet five months later The Sun is simply obliged to run a disclaimer that it confused conjecture with fact."

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=24624&sectioncode=1

Deliberately stirring up hatred against asylum seekers by making things up - and this is where millions of people get their information from.

"do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner

Do you believe that any general election is?

oh, and to answer your question
as much as any election/vote is

Hey it's a free country, people voted as they saw fit. I'm not in the least surprised they didnt vote for AV as the argument self-evidently just wasn't made.

Awful lot of snobbery on here lately from people who think they know better than the man on the street.

Wasnt 'Animal Farm' on the curriculum when you guys went to school? '1984'?

uplink - Member

Do you believe that any general election is?

I can't remember any general election where one side was so reliant on outright lies.

For that matter, I can't remember any general election where a third of the vote would be described as a total defeat or rejection of a party. Certainly not the last one.

Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?

Incidentally- you've made the incorrect assumption that I was pro-AV. You don't have to have been pro-AV to look at the referendum campaigns and see a total contempt for voters, and an outright intent to mislead.

Mcboo, the 'man on the street is an idiot, apparently. Not fit to have an opinion, unlike those who are 'right.

Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?

Yes it was a fair vote.

But wait a minute, if I think that, does that make me politically unsafe? Am I off the electoral register or will you give me another chance Northwind? Let me know once you and Grum have formed a Peoples Committee and come to a verdict.

Will you answer the actual question, rather than some other question that you'd rather answer?

The "man on the street" is not an idiot. But if you give someone a plate of lies, and ask them to make a decision, they won't neccesarily give you the same decision as they would if they had been given the truth- or at least, 2 equal and opposite servings of lies 😉

The opposition to women getting the vote had similar arguments to some of these here, I really can't believe that there are some folks that think only people they approve of should be able to vote

Kier Hardie will be turning in his grave

So, those that support a referendum - you think it's a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May's lies about asylum seekers and cats? That's good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?

are some folks that think only people they approve of

It's not about approving of them, it's about being sufficiently informed. If you've looked at all the info and decided you're against membership of the EU, then that's fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that's not fine.

Both, Mcboo. Here "les lumières" and "humanisme", and philosophy are part of the "programme de l'éducation nationale". Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.

Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.

Absolutely.

OK lets be brutal about this, the man on the street is not so much an idiot, that would be going to far. He is, how shall we say distracted, the average man on the street believes that the political class exists for his benefit, however jaded they may be with talk of expenses, or with the carry on of Murdoch's press. Deep down there is still the belief that politicians are running the country for the good. In particular their good.

So it is that the voter will allow the sell off of assets, such as railways,electricity,council housing etc, for less than there true value.

am pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)

When was the last time the British electorate truely stood up and rebelled against the actions of their leaders? When was the last time a politician was called to account for their actions. That politicians can act with virtual impunity leads to where we are.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

grum - Member
So, those that support a referendum - you think it's a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May's lies about asylum seekers and cats? That's good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?

Its just dawned on me.......you guys are Daily Mail readers!

It's not about approving of them, it's about being sufficiently informed. If you've looked at all the info and decided you're against membership of the EU, then that's fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that's not fine.

OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?

OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?

No not really, I was probably being hyperbolic (if that's a word 🙂 ) earlier - I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can't deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.

They often get made to print corrections, but they are always a tiny article on page 97 where the original story was a front page headline, so the damage is done.

I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can't deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.

OK......when I asked whether you guys had read any Orwell I was being a bit of rhetorical ponce. But seriously, do you know how scary this kind of language is? Did you pay attention to ANYTHING that happened in the 20th Century?

What? Educating people in critical thinking is a bad thing? The much derided 'Media Studies' I believe actually teaches people to try and critically assess the media which we are saturated with - quite an important and useful thing you would think.

It would rather depend on which branch of critical thinking they were taught, wouldn't it? I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.

I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.

Not at all - amazingly enough despite what you clearly think I don't believe everything I read in The Guardian either. Sometimes it can be a little bit like a lefty Daily Mail - though it's nowhere near as poor quality/malicious.

Isn't the ultimate critical thinking being applied?

If the "political elite" is [b]for[/b] it, and trying to resist the public being given the option, then it must, of its very nature, be good for "them", and bad for "us" 😉

Just for a minute then I thought an STW thread might be reaching a concensus: that democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.

Just for a minute, now I'm not so sure. 😉

The question that everyone should ask of everything they experience is what is the teller gaining from this.

If you read the news, watch the TV, ask yourself what are you being told and why.

For instance, why is the Sun anti Europe, does Murdoch have a reason to oppose the EU.

It is the act of questioning that far too many do not do.

If any of my kids comes home and says they want to do a degree in Media Studies I will disown them.

It is the act of questioning that far too many do not do.

Exactly. Look at the sources of information, assess their arguments, analyse them for potential bias. As a history student this was drummed into me.

So mcboo - critical thinking is a bad thing? 😕

No weaseling. 😛

Grum - thinking is hard for many folk let alone critical thinking.

CFH - did yu really post that seriously?

CaptainFlashheart - Member

It would rather depend on which branch of critical thinking they were taught, wouldn't it? I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.

Critical thinking is the ability to decide for yourself from the evidcne offered.

Laugh of the day this thread - swiveleyed loons abound

[i]Democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.[/i]

Anyone disagree?

Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?

Also, why simply say that someone who disagrees with you is a 'swivel eyed loon' or an 'idiot? Ever realized what that makes you?

so what would you do if voters refused to be 'educated' in politics and would rather choose how to vote after a Saturday night in the pub with their mates?

bar them from voting?
suspend all votes until such time as everyone takes it seriously?

Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?

and if you use critical thinking it does not matter what is presented, ask why what has been presented has been.

is it beyond understanding that Blairs dossier was created to justify a decision? go back to DS's CV thread, you present what assists your case and omit what does not.

Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?

Polly Toynbee obviously.

so what would you do if voters refused to be 'educated' in politics and would rather choose how to vote after a Saturday night in the pub with their mates?

bar them from voting?

I dunno, this is the tricky bit. I like the use of 'air quotes' to try and make it sound like education is a bad thing BTW.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?

Ah - really - critcal thinkng is the ability to make decisions from teh evidence offered - there is no "'right' way of thinking to be taught" if you teach critical thinking - the two are mutually exclusive.

Also, why simply say that someone who disagrees with you is a 'swivel eyed loon' or an 'idiot? Ever realized what that makes you?

Oh I don't. There are folk I disagree with who I think are rational and I will engage / debate with them but some of the but some of the rhetoric on this thread is laughable in its sillyness.

In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?

Nothing tricky about it, ffs! It's their opinion! They are as entitled to it as you are, regardless of how your view differs from theirs.

the whole point of electing a government is so that they can make the best informed decisions, having referenda defeats the purpose of the system?

Yup - thats what a representative democracy is and how it works

Nothing tricky about it, ffs! It's their opinion! They are as entitled to it as you are, regardless of how your view differs from theirs.

Yup, it is there opinion, and for the number of people who have died so people can have a vote and die because of their vote it is only right people think about what they are doing.

I believe Moral Hazard is one way of looking at it, or more specifically the disconnection to it experienced by the average voter.

"swivel-eyed loon", who said that? Ah, him. Well this is the second thread tonight I'm giving up on up on due to TJs insults. Just as well he only has one vote eh!

Edukator - Member
Democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.

Anyone disagree?

10 million Sun readers can't be wrong...

As long as she's got big tits.

TandemJeremy - Member
Yup - thats what a representative democracy is and how it works

But what happens when frequently those representatives prove to be corrupt, & incompetent time and again?

Yup, it is there opinion, and for the number of people who have died so people can have a vote and die because of their vote it is only right people think about what they are doing.

Exactly.

I dunno, this is the tricky bit.

Tricky but fundamental - and as you said to Mcboo, "no weasling!" 😉

I agree with your and Edukator's comments about the value of critical reasoning. Compared to when I was at school, subjects such as history and theology have progressed massively in this regard. I can't comment with any authority on medja studies, but remain to be convinced.

But grum, you really can't have it both ways. A free and democratic society works in two ways. It gives us the freedom to express our views but it also imposes on us a tolerance for others views - however unpleasant and abhorrent they may be. But this is the price you have to pay to avoid censorship, which is far worse.

FWIW - I think there is a problem with 'the freedom of the press" as in reality that means the freedom of a minority of parties to manipulate public opinion. But equally, to surpress the press would be even worse. The legal system is there to defend us from when they break the law and otherwise we merely have to bite our lips when others express things that we dont believe in. Either that or listen intently to see if they have anything to learn from (far more likely!)

One final thought/giggle before bed - I wonder if this thread has helped to explain why there are so many Old Etonions (and their like) in positions of influence!?! 😉

The press is relatively simple to sort out - sort out ownership to stop the concentration of power into one persons hands along with tougher regulation

Tricky but fundamental - and as you said to Mcboo, "no weasling!"

The weaseling thing was a reference to another thread. But I suppose no, much as I find the idea sort of appealing, no I don't think you can take away the vote from people who haven't made any kind of vague effort to understand what they are voting for/against.

It gives us the freedom to express our views but it also imposes on us a tolerance for others views - however unpleasant and abhorrent they may be. But this is the price you have to pay to avoid censorship, which is far worse.

Hmm... I don't think the balance is correct at the moment. I mean Paul Dacre is the chairman of the Press Complaints Commission FFS!

little things, if a paper has to print a retraction it should be given the same prominence as the original piece. No paper should publish a story they can not verify. bias is one thing lies something else. Politicians need to be held to account for their actions. Move away from soundbites give real details.

Does anyone think the Conservatives really won the election, or was it a case that labour lost it?

little things, if a paper has to print a retraction it should be given the same prominence as the original piece. No paper should publish a story they can not verify.

Kelvin Mackenzie admits he only fact checked [b]ONE[/b] story while he edited the Sun. And this is the standard we deem acceptable for a publication that influences millions?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23997287-i-only-checked-the-source-of-one-story-when-i-was-sun-editor-and-that-landed-me-with-pound-1m-bill-for-elton-libel.do

Grum - I know and I was was cheating and being selective using the word...but you hadn't answered the question. 😉 Nice to agree with you (and blimey with TJ here) for a change. Must be a good weekend!

I dont think its acceptable but equally cant deny any Tabloid readers their wish to read their chosen paper and to vote.

Bon nuit!

A referendum on whether or not to stay in the EU would have a massive impact on the economic future of this country, as well as on the rest of Europe. I really don't believe that's a decision that should be made by a group of people who are largely ignorant of the implications of either choice, and who don't have the intellectual powers to assess those implications critically and come to a reasoned choice.

Rationally, it seems on a par with creating a panel of laypeople to decide on the most appropriate treatment in the NHS - they simply wouldn't be equipped with the knowledge and skills to make an informed decision. These decisions should be taken by the people we elect to do that job, and they should be held to account for the quality of their decision making.

I also think that any decision about a referendum on EU membership should be held over until the Scottish referendum on independence - It'll be a bloody faff if we have to rejoin in six years time or so, not to mention the cost of trying to control immigration from our 3rd world neighbours ten years down the line when the English economy collapses...

'Little E-N-G-L-A-N-D' la la la di la............

A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless - do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?

Thankfully I haven't tortured myself by reading this thread, but that comment by TJ at the start of the thread drew my attention. Was there ever a greater contradiction in one sentence ?

If you tell someone that a referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless, then why ask them whether they think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests ?

That's the whole point of the referendum - to ask them whether they think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests. So if you don't want to ask them that question, then why are you asking them that question ?

It seems to me that some people are confusing the EU with the EEC. There is nothing to stop the UK withdrawing from the EU but keeping all economic ties.

Switzerland. They're pretty small, out of the EU and doing fine.

As for denying the public a vote on something because "the papers are corrupt"? That's a pretty poor excuse. People are allowed to make an opinion. Regardless of what they base it on.

I agree with TJ on his point on representative government, but the point here is that we've been promissed a choice at various points and then been denied it. If the majority of the population want something, then to be honest, politicans should be making it happen. They are public servants, after all. Put in place, by us, to carry out our will.

Jackie Ashley in the Guardian

Nor should we have any time for the elitist argument that e-petitions allow populist campaigns to get going. We trust people, or we don't. From the banking crisis to immigration, the danger of millions of people feeling they have been shut out of parliamentary debate is far worse than any danger in allowing "difficult" ideas to make it on to the floor of the Commons.

As it happens, there was a lot of hype about hanging returning as an issue because of e-petitions: the last time I looked, it hadn't exactly attracted a mass movement of supporters. Even if it does, then [b]it is up to progressives to get out there, mobilise, argue their case and defeat the argument, rather than having any truck with trying to muffle it.[/b]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/23/epetitions-rescue-ailing-wheezing-democracy

It seems to me that some people are confusing the EU with the EEC. There is nothing to stop the UK withdrawing from the EU but keeping all economic ties.

Switzerland. They're pretty small, out of the EU and doing fine.

🙄

If the UK leaves the EU we will be shunned by the other countries. We are not seen in a good light anyway with continual moaning, our government sitting with the racists on the far right of the parliament, constant grandstanding and so on, continual criticisms and the frank xenophobia from the tory "eurosceptics" There is no chance of any half way house. and it would be disastrous to leave

For example

At one point in the exchanges, Mr Sarkozy was quoted as telling Mr Cameron: "We are sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do."

And remember folks Margaret always dug her heals in at the EU but signed on the line [u][b]every[/b][/u] time when treaties came up

sarkozy slapping down Cameron is a good example of the cons grandstanding for domestic consumption while. marginalising themselves in Europe

As for denying the public a vote on something because "the papers are corrupt"? That's a pretty poor excuse. People are allowed to make an opinion. Regardless of what they base it on.

kimbers - sarkozy slapping down Cameron is a good example of the cons grandstanding for domestic consumption while. marginalising themselves in Europe

Cameron, however, got his fellow leaders to insert into the final communique recognition that laws on the single market must be upheld and a level playing field safeguarded for countries not in the euro.

Poor old Dave isn't having a good time at the moment - last week it was Alex Salmond telling him to wind his neck in over the Scottish Independence referendum, now it's Sarkozy bitch slapping him over the Euro.

Must feel like he's back fagging for the bigger boys...

Here's a little test to illustrate our current 'market' situation within the EU, it works against each and everyone of you.

Right now, if you want to sell say your high end bike and another guy in Germany also has the same bike for sale and you both choose to use ebay. Your bike would earn more in Germany currently due to the strength of the Euro but hey that's another matter.

The fact is he could advertise his on ebay here, but you can't there.

You can't set up a German ebay account to circumvent the rules either. Even if you do happen to live there a while and set up the account, once you come back here you're IP blocked from operating it.

Just one of the many little trade 'barriers' within the so called free market that acts against us .

Now that, the free market, is supposed to be one of the benefits of membership, never mind the constant imbalance in financial contribution which is heavily weighted one way..

It's one of many examples of Nationalistic tendencies that are rife in business in both France and Germany, I could cite lots of similar little annoyances I've experienced over the years by firms I work for and friends who work in businesses that get hamstrung trying to export British goods and services.

Sarkozy is displaying the usual, "little man" symptoms when faced with a crisis. He knows that he is facing the decimation of his banking industry as a result of the crisis with the obvious implications of Fr tax-payers having to fund the re-capitalisation of the banks. Merkel is stone-walling him and Cameron is too. This is the sign of his (understandable) desperation.

Behind this is each player pandering to his/her domestic audience. In the meantime, the world is moving on leaving the Eu politicians trailing in its wake. Plus ca change....