[Closed] The Emporers Not Wearing any clothes....

Because people want to believe in something? Because some people want the security that a belief gives them?

Personally, I think it's a joke. I believe in myself and the people around me, not some invisible thing, but the "being nice to other people" thing at the core of most religions seems like a good thing to adhere to.

Where to start?

Well, firstly the word is "Emperor".

Secondly, what has David Beckham's choice of hotel got to do with organised religion and/or what occurs in Westminster?

*Confused*

In short why do we put up with all this crap?

I take it you mean your poor linking skills- goes to the Beckham story for me.

Is this some scurrilous and unfounded accusation about Becks in the showers? I'm confused

yep - I'm sure if he can afford £14,000 a night for hotel rooms he can afford a decent lawyer to sue you for libel..........

Having demonstrated his ability to say "bonjour" at press conferences, David Beckham will at least be able to greet his personal butler.

?

should that be butt-ler in this context?

Soz: Not quite sure how thats happened, but this is the story I linked too

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21572724 ]Cardinal sin[/url]

Wouldn't this be an ecumenical matter?

Careful now.

Down with that sort of thing!

So how much longer will it be before organised religion is seen for what it is and ceases to exist?

Serious answer: in the UK 2 more generations. Compare our generations religiosity with our grandparents' generation. Extrapolate that forward to your childrens' children.

So how much longer will it be before organised religion is seen for what it is

What, the belief that we should love each other (as Jesus loved us, in the Christian way of things)?

The sooner we get rid of that idiotic notion, the better.

You must be really stupid to put your faith in love.

You must be really stupid to fall for a belief in love over all.

and you must be struggling to seperate the concept of personal belief systems from the word organised

I am struggling to see the difference between 'religion' and 'organised religion', yes.

And here we go again....
[img] [/img]

Religion won't disappear. It'll just change. In a bit we'll all be wearing t shirts with this on

[img] [/img]

Because if we don't, a big beardy, shouty bloke will chop our arms off with a big sword. Then we'll go misty-eyed and long for the halcyon days of being touched up by a bloke in a frock after choir practice

On a logical note, if a teacher or nurse is found to be making 'inappropriate advances', does that mean that 'organised education' or 'organised healthcare' should cease to exist?

What about all these celebrities being questioned about inappropriate advances, and worse: an end to 'organised entertainment'?

Notice I didn't list politicians. Hoping for an end to 'organised politics' might make me look like a loony.

and here we go again....

lol, sometimes it's fun to join in though

Wouldn't this be an ecumenical matter?

😆

Spot on!

Nice Father Ted reference!

For emphasis..

[img] [/img]

You must be really stupid to put your faith in love.

On a logical note, if a teacher or nurse is found to be making 'inappropriate advances', does that mean that 'organised education' or 'organised healthcare' should cease to exist?

This is an interesting point. I personally don't think we should abandon religion because of one or two perverts. I think we should abandon it because its patently absurd.

Besides we have better systems of control for society now anyway

Are we saying that the cardinal is a nuncio?

touched a nerve Knobby by any chance?

If you read what I wrote, the question I posed was how much longer before either the thing collapes or we demand change?

Seems to me that as things stand, its intolerable, i.e. when the top gun in the UK Catholic church is found to be a a bit more than a tad hypocritical, but thats no different though than corrupt and immoral politicians, and so again I wonder at what point folk at large will reject what they stand for and demand better, or have we all just become immune to it and have simply come to accept the shabbyness of it all as the way things are?

Personally it properly hacks me off.

Not read the full thread but I love the Father Ted reference up there 🙂

touched a nerve Knobby by any chance?

Um, no, you're alright.

or have we all just become immune to it and have simply come to accept the shabbyness of it all as the way things are?

That sense of immunity - or numbness - and mute acceptance of shabbiness are some of the things I find Christianity helps to relieve.

It sort of forces me to ask myself how much 'being a nice person' is just a theoretical defence for laziness, and how much I actually do to help other people. So I find myself doing things that otherwise I might not, and they make me feel better about life.

The RC church has a very particular problem , patriarchal authoritarianism seems to have run its course in a modern world yet they cling to it to lick limpets.....

personally don't think we should abandon religion because of one or two perverts. I think we should abandon it because its patently absurd.

At least that's logical. 🙂

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

the church is so arse about face they may as well elect dawkins as pope

Compare our generations religiosity with our grandparents' generation. Extrapolate that forward to your childrens' children.

Are we still just talking about Roman Catholics here, or are you looking at all religions and cultures? For the record, Islam is growing in the UK (as in, active observance of it, not like the nominal "Christians" who do the odd wedding and funeral but are otherwise irreligious).

the church is so arse about face they may as well elect dawkins as pope

Apparently Paddy Power are offering odds of 666-1. 😀

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

NIce wee rant Kimbers, but..
- the christian spirit isn't about hatred and prejudice
- it doesn't seem he forced himself on others- made advances, sure.
- nowt wrong with wearing a dress if you're a man, and that's no indicator of sexuality anyway
- but it's not a dress anyway, is it
- what's the church protecting him from?

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

The 'official' stances on homosexuality, female bishops etc, are probably the main reasons I find it so difficult to say "I am a Christian".

as in, active observance of it, not like the nominal "Christians" who do the odd wedding and funeral but are otherwise irreligious

Attending Friday prayers does not equate to active observance, there are a quite a few "nominal" muslims too.

The 'official' stances on homosexuality, female bishops etc, are probably the main reasons I find it so difficult to say "I am a Christian".

But these stances are bound to particular sects of a religion, aren't they, lots of people have managed to incorporate acceptance of homosexuality and so on within their own christian belief system.

Not sure that I'd agree with that, I reckon that attending church once a week would be where I'd start looking at drawing the line between "active" Christians and the weddings-and-funerals lot. Ultimately, who can define what is / isn't active observance?, but based on how people self-identify on that one, Islam is growing in the UK. Whether that means they pray five times a day, I don't know.

[s]

the question I posed was how much longer before either the thing collapes or we demand change?

Who is the "we" in this sentence? Does it actually include you, or is it a rhetorical 'we'? Someone Else, in other words?

What is stopping you from demanding change yourself? Beyond posting about it on a mountainbike forum?

Go out in the world and do something, if it's what you believe in.[/s]

edit: can I retract this on grounds of pomposity?

But these stances are bound to particular sects of a religion, aren't they, lots of people have managed to incorporate acceptance of homosexuality and so on within their own christian belief system.

Yep, it's just a shame that non-acceptance seems to have a level of 'official' sanction, which affects the popular view of religion as a whole and skews conversations like this one.

Arse. Pheck.

The only time I go into a church is to look at the architechture, look for green man carvings and take photos.

Organised religion is basically a system of control.

Essentially its a series of rules claiming divine providence for keeping the general public in order.

Things which are deemed bad for the collective good of society are therefore "sins"
Life for a lot of people is or was really hard. Your reward for a lifetime of thankless toil was a place in heaven. Of course in order to get to heaven you had to follow the rules set out by whatever religion you were following. Regular donations to the church / temple / mosque also helped.

In fact in the middle ages you could pay the church to absolve you of sin. I actually think this was one of the reason why Martin Luther kicked of the Reformation

I find Christianity helps to relieve.

You see thats where I diverge from your view. Christianity, as in the organised structure of religion leaves me cold. Pretty much the same with all other religions too. However, that is not to say that I reject the morality of religion at large, in fact if anything the reverse is true. I cannot accept the "Church" because of my broadly Christian beliefs. Not least being that which tells me that just because it is difficult to stand up and denounce something which is self evidently wrong, it does not excuse me if I take the path of least resistance and ignore it.

I think I see where you're coming from.

Berm Bandit - Member

You see thats where I diverge from your view. Christianity, as in the organised structure of religion leaves me cold. Pretty much the same with all other religions too. However, that is not to say that I reject the morality of religion at large,

It sounds to me that you are interested in 'humanity' and helping out other people for the greater good.

As far as I can tell, this doesn't require organised religion (which often appear to [i]evolve[/i] in a fairly man-made kind of way) or even a belief in a "higher being".

A lot of people do appear to take comfort from belief in something that they know full-well is impossible to demonstrate or prove ...and, by their logic, is therefore impossible to dis-prove. Strong, blind faith in this unprove-able "Higher Being" being important.

Personally, I struggle with this concept.

The cardinal in question was speaking on the radio last Friday. He was in favour of heterosexual marriage for priests, but against homosexual marriage for anyone.

He claimed that he had never given marriage for himself any thought because it wasn't possible for somebody becoming a priest in those days.