Well this kinda does, and kinda doesn't fit here.....

Was at the local Lidl and about to inform this chap that this is EV charging, not motorbike parking...when blow me!

Got chatting to him - it's a 15.7kWh battery, and about a 90kW motor.

Looked brill - just like a traditional bike (i was expecting an EV motorbike to be all futuristic). All the benefits of an electric car - smooth rapid acceleration, easy twist and go...regen...

What a wicked thing!

DrP

Thanks Mert - I suspected that was the case but good to confirm. I do mainly structural / suspension rig work so don't get to play with running vehicles any more.

So if the rate of battery degradation isn’t as bad as people seem to flap about (he says doing exactly that) then great, that’s kind of what I want to believe

Battery degradation isn't a linear thing.  You get more degradation in the first year or two then it flattens off, but after a while you start to get more chance of a cell failure which isn't quite the same as degredation AIUI.  So that's when a cell becomes 'weak' and does not hold its charge, the BMS will report this as degradation.  I think that with an early Leaf you might be running this risk a bit more, but I'm not exactly sure. The second generation (40/62kWh) seem to be better. The 30kWh models are reportedly worse than the earlier 24kWhs for battery degradation.

Thanks @mert I’m sure you are right on the over-thinking ?

Part of the issue is that I do enjoy pondering abstract questions like which mode is theoretically better even if the difference doesn’t matter, but I shouldn’t expect anyone else to care.

We’ve had exclusively AWD cars for over 20 years now. Ever since we came perilously close to getting stuck on a deserted highland road in a blizzard with an 18-month old baby in the back. Sold the car and bought a 4x4 the next week and it’s been AWD (with appropriate tyres) ever since. I’ve had to dig myself out of snowdrifts a few times but have never failed to get where I want to and going back to a 2WD EV still feels like a bit of a backwards step. But I’m sure you are right; in a modern EV snow performance is really all about tyres and dual-motor setups are really just about extra power.

I'm sure Mert is probably right, but doesn't physics say that having double the area of grip gives an increased chance of moving?

(It certainly gives the software twice as many options for which wheel gets the power at any given time)

#oversimplification 😉

I’m sure Mert is probably right, but doesn’t physics say that having double the area of grip gives an increased chance of moving?

In terms of grip then the more tyre area you have the less pressure there is on each square cm of tyre so it's more complex than that. However, you're talking about FWD/RWD/4WD, and yes if you have four driven wheels you have more forward traction. But he's saying that in his environment two driven wheels is enough to get you going, and that's all you need to get to the end of the lane. You would be able to do it faster in a 4WD car but this is only useful if you are rallying.

I suppose nice crisp dry hardpack snow in a cold country is a bit different to slush with a wet layer underneath that's going to freeze over night.. snow is pretty complex stuff.

Ever since we came perilously close to getting stuck on a deserted highland road in a blizzard with an 18-month old baby in the back

You'll always get MORE grip in a 4WD but the big question is why weren't you watching the weather forecast?  It's not like snow can take you completely by surprise these days - the only times I've driven on snow in the last 15 years were when I deliberately went out to try it.

but the big question is why weren’t you watching the weather forecast

Because not everyone has the ability to choose when they have to make a journey and by what means?

I suppose nice crisp dry hardpack snow in a cold country is a bit different to slush with a wet layer underneath that’s going to freeze over night.. snow is pretty complex stuff.

We get both here. And glassy smooth ice.

in a modern EV snow performance is really all about tyres

TBH, in a modern anything, it's all about tyres.

My 2WD i4 has big fat summer tyres on it. We live in a high area of south Lanarkshire in a hilly housing estate.

I took it out on a snowy day last winter to try it out. I parked it 5 mins later at the bottom of our road and it stayed there for 2 days until the snow melted.

It was truly awful, probably as bad as my last RWD BMW5 Tourer 15 years ago. Eldest son’s 71 plate Corsa with small wheels and crossclimates is seemingly invincible in up to a few inches of snow on hazard free roads ?

A question prompted by the recent cold weather - do some EV's heat the battery in cold weather even when they're parked up and not in use? I'm not referring to the pre conditioning that you can do before you drive to get everything up to temp.

It seems that in the current cold weather , when I park the car up, it has say 67% battery charge, and when I wake up in the morning it has reduced to say 66%, and at this point in time there has been no preconditioning, its almost like its using some power to stop the temperature of the battery getting too low - is this a thing that some evs do to protect the battery?

It didnt exhibit this behaviour when the weather was warmer

double the area of grip gives an increased chance of moving?

Yup, that's the saving grace of AWD/4WD. It doesn't however give you the ability to not slide into a ditch, or the back of the second to last car in the queue you're about to join. That's where the proper tyres come into their own. And driving sensibly.

As an interesting experiment i tried FWD, AWD and RWD this morning on the way out to the road. All allowed me to stop and start on the hill, it's about a 1 in 4, with 50mm of fresh snow on frozen gravel. And i've got winter tyres on, not studded.

Only thing the AWD gave me over the single axle was the ability to accelerate like a bellend with minimal wheel spin (by bellend i mean ~50% throttle). FWD and RWD i could just drive off, part throttle, until a tiny bit of slip (then the TC engaged, as did the AWD.)

It didnt exhibit this behaviour when the weather was warmer

is this a thing that some evs do to protect the battery?

No.

A cold battery will report out slight less energy than a warm battery, as deliverable voltage and current will drop, so it'll show slightly less SoC on the screen. You won't notice a similar change when it warms up, as you'll either be driving, heating the cabin or charging. All of which heat the battery. But also change the SoC more than the (mild) effect of heating.

Many will run cooling when the car is parked though, if the battery gets too hot.

Thanks @mert Were all three EVs?

I think I've flogged this horse far too much already so I'll make this my last comment on the FWD/RWD/AWD EV point.

I don't doubt that AWD is better than either FWD or RWD in theory and I don't doubt that in practice tyres are the most important thing, followed by decent traction control. What I'm not sure about is whether (in theory) FWD is any better or worse than RWD in an EV.

We know that FWD beats RWD for traction in ICE cars, but that's because all the weight is at the front. In an EV it would seem that the opposite is probably true and RWD is generally better. Looking at 0-62 times, for example, RWD EVs generally perform better as it seems hard to get the power down on a FWD EV without spinning the wheels. So, if all four wheels are on the same surface RWD should be better than FWD in terms of traction I think. What complicates things is that, on snow, the rear wheels are basically forced to drive in the snow compacted by the front wheels while the front wheels may be on the (grippier) fresh snow and can be turned to find a bit more grip. Whether this is enough to compensate for the traction advantages of RWD is harder to understand.

It's a moot point really though. mert has done the experiment and any differences clearly don't matter in practice and it's just my overly analytical brain trying to make sense of stuff.

@molgrips I could give you all the excuses (returning from a trip away, alternative routes being much longer, changing forecast etc) but at the end of the day you are right, it was an error of judgement and if we had got stuck it would have been our own fault. But to err is human so I quite like having a big margin for error. Having said that, traction control systems (and tyres) have come a long way in 20 years, that 18-month old baby is now a 22 year old woman who can make her own mistakes and if not wiser I am now older and a bit more cautious. Winters here have also got milder so the need for AWD just isn't as great as it was.

 But to err is human so I quite like having a big margin for error

That's a fair point. The only time I have ever almost got stuck was when I  was working away from home and snow was forecast at home but not where I was.  It was a little worse than expected and I was late, and I almost got stuck on the small incline 500m from my house (with a big queue of cars behind me at rush hour). On summer tyres, because it was 2009 and the first snow we'd had in at least a decade. I don't think I would risk it now because I'm older but also from talking to my Father in Law who deals with snow much more regularly and is consequently a lot more cautious.  When you're young you think you can get away with more.

A seasonal question- what is the official STW line on 4 season tyres for EVs?  I think Michelin Cross Climate 2 are the general favourite but maybe EVs have some different requirements. I recall DrP had some different suggestions?

On a similar line, the general advice these days seems to be just to fit a good set of all-season tyres (e.g. Cross Climate 2) and use them all year round, but for those of us in the frozen north (Scotland) is it not still better to fit dedicated winter tyres in the winter and switch to summer tyres if it looks like we might get a summer?

maybe EVs have some different requirements

They don't.

I recently put Continental AllSeason Contacts on the Merc simply because they were the cheapest decent option - in fact, on their special offer they were the cheapest decent tyre of any type.  Still lots of offers around.

They are almost as good as winters, but not quite - and not as good as summers. However the main advantage is that you don't have to worry about wear or warm weather performance if it gets warm late in the spring but you still might get snow.

@DrJ ....

I've got Bridgestone turanza all season 6 on the AWD polestar...

I'd have happily got CC2 s for it but nil were in stock... But I'm actually happier with the Bridgestone as they come up better in the wet, but worse in snow... Being on the south coast it gets VERY cold and wet (-2 today) but we don't really get snow....

So they suit me well...

Having all that weight and power, good tyres are a MUST.... With all the commuting I do, and with lots of standing water all year round, I'm pleased with my choice..

I've actually had all season tires on my cars for many years now...I see no downsides in use, and they are minimally more expensive (compared to non all season premium rubber...)

DrP

Barrie Crampton anyone? Interesting views on his YouTube channel.

V happy with the Kumho all weathers on the ionic 5. As above better wet dry performance with slight downgrade on snow is the right balance for uk albeit they deal with what snow we’ve had fine.
First time I’ve had all weathers as opposed to summers and winters on a second set of wheels and can’t see any real world disadvantage.

Being on the south coast it gets VERY cold and wet (-2 today)

Ha ha, Trust me that's not VERY cold.

What do you do with the ordinary tyres you take off? Keep them in the garage “just in case”?

What do you do with the ordinary tyres you take off? Keep them in the garage “just in case”?

I’d wondered the same thing. When I was toying with the idea of all season or summer/winter swaps I figured replace old tyres with all seasons or get a spare set of wheels respectively.

Depends I suppose. If they’re fairly new then you can probably sell them. Maybe even get a trade-in discount some places?

if they’re part worn then I suppose they’re still saleable. Given the cost of tyres and their manufacturing effects I’d rather give them away to someone who will use them than leave them to rot in the garage ‘just in case’.

in the end I replaced my rear tyres first and since there were no readily available all seasons I just went for the non-EV replacement (no foam liner) which was cheaper, allegedly quieter(!), and works fine. Next car though it’ll be all seasons asap.

EV ‘servicing’?

I figured that the Tesla would tell me when it needed service intervention. It told me when the tyres were differentially worn and that they should be rotated or the rears replaced. My Model S prompted me when it needed the, now not done, coolant refresh. Any problems have typically been dealt with remotely or by a mobile service person, for example micro switch replacement on a Model S door handle or replacement of a Model 3 door handle because the chroming had peeled up on one end (all dealt with under warranty).

but I had an email this morning from my old MB dealership about BYD cars and a ‘great’ offer of ‘free servicing for 2 years’. IDK what they’d do. Check and fill the brake fluid? Screen wash? Tyre check?

What’s your ‘service’ experience for car that have fixed time/distance interval requirements? What did they do?

What do you do with the ordinary tyres you take off? Keep them in the garage “just in case”?

Complete set of spare wheels in the corner of the garage. I even made a rack for them, especially important as i've got 6 or 7 sets in there at the moment (i have a massive garage). Also, i'm using full winters, not all seasons. So it's a noticably softer compound rubber and a very broken up tread. So they really don't like it in the middle of the summer (especially not on the motorway!). By the same token, all seasons are useless for most of the winter (and illegal for all of it).

Thanks @mert Were all three EVs?

Same car, but not an EV, a long range Hybrid, eICE on the front axle, electric rear axle.
Switching between hybrid and full electric modes gives me front and rear wheel drive (until traction control kicks in, then it switches to AWD). Or i can select permanent AWD. It also weighs a good lump over 2 tonnes, especially with me and two kids in it, probably 2200kg, weight distribution is fairly even with the hybrid set up, battery is in the tunnel (18.8kWh, about 90 kilos) rear motor/axle (107kW) etc adds about 80 in total, it’s a new motor and battery since last I looked at the actual weights so they might be a bit out!
But not a million miles away from an EV.

We know that FWD beats RWD for traction in ICE cars, but that’s because all the weight is at the front. In an EV it would seem that the opposite is probably true and RWD is generally better.

Several other things at play as well, the biggies being how much torque the engine can deliver at low rpm and how smoothly it does it. ICE also has the added complication of gearboxes (only talking autos here) and torque convertors. Then there's stuff like suspension geo and weight shift and so on.
But generally speaking, to the rest of your post, yes.

Ha ha, Trust me that’s not VERY cold.

Oi - for us Southerners these sort of numbers get us considering emigration... I know up North you've got to wait until minus double digits before putting the heating on or wering a thick jumper... 😉

When I stuck my all seasons on, I just disposed of the old tyres. .. My life is too busy and complicated to be keeping old car tyres I know I'll NEVER do anything with!

DrP

By the same token, all seasons are useless for most of the winter (and illegal for all of it)

Why???

useless for most of the winter (and illegal for all of it).

Nope - provide loads more grip that summers without being quite as soft and adept in snow as full winters. And mine have the 3mps symbol so are legal all over europe.

A bit off topic as they were ICE cars, but since we are talking tyres and snow; I got to try various tyre and car combinations in the (Aberdeenshire) snow yesterday as I'd promised to take my son's car to the garage for him to sort out the MOT, service and putting the winter tyres back on.

So, over the course of the day I got to drive a combination of snowy back roads (with an inch or two of snow and some drifting) and more major (more slushy) roads with the following setups:

Starting with my AWD car on all-season tyres. Perfectly fine for the conditions yesterday.

Then into my son's FWD car on summer tyres. Comically awful, especially jumping into it straight after mine. Any attempt to put your foot down mainly just resulted in the TCS light flashing. The car would pick up speed but very slowly. That wasn't a bad thing though considering how reluctant it was to stop or go round corners 🙂  Could still make safe progress, just very slowly and it wouldn't have taken much more snow to bring it to a halt I reckon.

Then into the loan car from the garage (FWD with no, or maybe just faulty, traction control). Properly scary. Anything more than the lightest touch on the accelerator at almost any speed and the wheels would spin (sometimes pushing the car sideways down the camber). You could get the speedo to read stupid speeds while barely making any forward progress. Never felt safe in it.

Then back into my son's car with winter tyres. Talk about chalk and cheese. You could still make it slide but everything suddenly felt under control. Just like the usual understeer you get with any FWD car really, so you could just back off a bit to tighten up the turn. Deliberately drove it into a few bits of fresh snow (to let cars going in the opposite direction pass on narrow lanes) and it pulled itself out again with no issues.

Finally back into my own car, which to be honest didn't really feel any better. Maybe a bit easier to pick up speed with AWD but didn't really go round corners or brake any better, so that was a mixed blessing.

My conclusion from all this (getting back to EVs) was that if I did decide to "downgrade" from my AWD ICE car to a 2WD EV I'd just get a second set of wheels with proper winter tyres as I reckon 2WD on proper winter tyres is pretty much indistinguishable from AWD on all-seasons (based on one very unscientific experiment 🙂 )

By the way, we are currently switching the tyres on my son's car (onto the same rims) and I keep the set he's not currently using in the shed. Some tyre places will offer to store them for you, but a friend of ours is currently in dispute with a local tyre place after they disposed of a set that he says he'd asked them to keep.  It does cost almost £100 to get the tyres swapped (and the wheels re-balanced) though, which is almost £200 a year. So I can see why most people either end up with  a second set of rims (and swap the wheels themselves) or jut stick to all seasons all year.

Nope – provide loads more grip that summers without being quite as soft and adept in snow as full winters.

So not much use in a country which is covered in snow and ice for somewhere up to 6 months of the year? Or at least, several months worth of snow and ice makes it worth changing summer/winter tyres, so may as well go all in.

And mine have the 3mps symbol so are legal all over europe.

Wouldn't that technically make them winter tyres which you can use all year round if you want rather than all seasons, despite the branding from the manufacturer? (And i didn't realise that they were trying to align bits of the whole M+S/3PMSF standards until now, will make things interesting!)

Why???

Cos i'm technically a foreigner. No snow tyres, no driving. Compulsory from mid Nov sometime until early april. Also required if there is snow or ice on the roads, which we can get from September through to May.

Cos i’m technically a foreigner. No snow tyres, no driving.

Ahhhh.

EV servicing just means a check over, which to be fair isn't a bad idea if you want a warranty.  If you were warrantying something wouldn't you want the owner to check it over regularly to make sure any problems are picked up early?

£70 for the first service on my EV and £140 for the second from the main dealer. Not too bad.

Havent seen it discussed on here but if you have then i apologise.

ICE v's EV driving characteristics in snow.  Not traction FWD/RWD/AWD related although its obviously a major point.  More to do with the driving modes etc.  In the past with manual cars i have had the benefit of engine breaking with the added back up of ABS braking.  This served me well with being able to slow down under control and also make progress out of inclined junctions etc using 2nd gear etc.

So in EV's it seems a little vague.  They are all auto for a start.  Mine has no tiptronic/manual overide like the older autos ICE's so no engine braking.  Thats done with the paddles to select regen settings.  But does the regen setting take into account the road/traction issues?  If i go into max regen is the car suddenly going to become a sledge and crash when its icy roads and i take my foot off the accelerator?  Does my brake assist take into account the amount of regen i have selected in conjunction with the traction.  Then there is the collision prevention assist which has three settings of harshness.  Do i need to reduce the setting for the winter.

The car weighs 2.5t and runs on 20" alloys that are much wider than anything ive had before.

If you were warrantying something wouldn’t you want the owner to check it over regularly to make sure any problems are picked up early?

I see your point. Though it’s a bit of a weak warranty in a way if it requires the owner to pay for assessments that prompt early remediation.

service costs over a combined 6 years of a Model 3 and Model Y £0. That coolant replacement and associated service checks on the Model S back in the day a MB-style £750 if I remember correctly.

Re: regen making the car a sledge...

In icy / snowy conditions i turn the regen down to minimum as the car does just this. Lifting off gives too much braking and can cause a slide.

Wheelspin is another issue.  It may not wheelspin more than an ICE vehicle, but there is nothing to indicate its happening unless looking down at the dash.  With an ICE there are increased revs and no movement, whereas with the EV simply nothing happens!

But does the regen setting take into account the road/traction issues?

Depends on who supplies the brake module and what the manufacturer has paid to be activated in it.

But mostly, yes. Regen is still "braking" and the same mitigation's are in place as normal braking. So if a wheel locks the regen should do one of three things.

1) drop out completely and the brake control will be taken over by the service brakes to give consistent performance, you *probably* won't get regen back until you've done something to tell the car you're in control, typically accelerated again or used the brake pedal over a certain threshold. Most current cars are doing something like this.

2) reduce brake torque until the wheel starts moving again (don't know of anyone who is doing this anymore).

3) drop out completely and you'll have to use the brake pedal to slow down. Some early teslas do/did this and some of the smaller/city car types. Again, it'll come back when you've done some thing specific with the controls.

Does my brake assist take into account the amount of regen i have selected in conjunction with the traction.

Yes, if your car is in the 1) or 2) groups

Then there is the collision prevention assist which has three settings of harshness.  Do i need to reduce the setting for the winter.

Completely up to you, i wouldn't, and haven't for years.

Also, traction control is usually dependant on reducing torque and braking each wheel independently, so they (mostly) have to switch over to service brakes, as regen brakes each axle rather than the wheel itself.

Lifting off gives too much braking and can cause a slide.

Do you get no TC intervention at all? What car is that, i need to go play! Nothing i've driven or benchmarked behaves like that.

 If i go into max regen is the car suddenly going to become a sledge and crash when its icy roads and i take my foot off the accelerator?

Car designer: We've poured billions into designing stability systems. Now that we can instantly control the torque of the motor should we also modulate the regen to help with the ESP?

Car designer boss: Nah, **** it, let them crash.

I think it's a bit of a myth that engine braking is better for snow. It allows you to brake nice and slowly but you can still do that with the brakes and you get the benefit of ABS and the braking force distributed over four wheels. I agree it feels better to use gentle engine braking but I don't think it is.

The car is designed to deal with you wedging the brakes on in panic so I don't think it's going to stop working in snow or if you have regen selected.

Thanks guys.  Plenty to consider there.  I did have lots typed out but im not sure it will help the conversation

mert

Free Member

Lifting off gives too much braking and can cause a slide.

I'm sure I read many pages back reference to avoiding the Jaguar I Pace. Anyone care to expand why?

Back at the research again and the I Pace ticks a lot of boxes (apart from the silly high insurance group because of the unnecessary silly fast acceleration).  Obviously as a new buy it was pretty woeful as it devalued like a stone...but that means it's now affordable 2nd hand to grunts like me. A colleague at work has one - looks ok. Mind you - never considered myself a "Jaaaag" kind of bloke.

I believe it is/was rather unreliable. Might be wrong.

Anyone care to expand why?

Unreliable, and crappy dealers, coupled with a relatively slow DC charge speed, but a very large battery

There was/is a common issue with the battery that meant quite a few needed new cells, which jag were/are replacing under warranty, but because of a parts shortage it was taking months to get the cells replaced, and during that time the car limited you to 75% battery capacity.

Others issues included a leaking front windscreen that causes the dash electronics to get wet.

Shame really, nice looking and driving car by all accounts.

Back to servicing - my P2 runs out of warranty next month..

obvs i'm going to get it MOT'd as a legal requirement, but...Iam I being daft saying "I genuinely can't see any point in a service"?

When I bought it I've already replaced the cabin filter. I think I've used the brakes 6 times in a year (!), and I top the washer fluid up when needed...

WHAT ELSE DO THEY DO??!!

I'll deep dive on the polestar forums (as, looking at Molgrips post and seeing his Ioniq needs engine coolant, I don't want to miss anything)...but SURELY there's not much more to do??!!

DrP

An AI search suggetion brings up:

A Polestar 2 service can include a number of things, such as:
Cleaning: The Polestar 2 can be cleaned as part of a service

Pick-up and delivery: Polestar can arrange to pick up and deliver your car for maintenance or repairs

Brake system maintenance: This can include a full brake report, checking the brake pipes, and adjusting the handbrake

Suspension and steering check: This can include checking the suspension operation, steering and suspension joints, and wheel bearings

Cabin air filter replacement: The cabin air filter is one of the only parts that requires regular attention

Software updates: Polestar releases software updates, which can include new features

Literally nothing I can't assess myself, or will come up as part of an MOT (Brake and handbrake are checked).

I think it's money for old rope!

DrP

Literally nothing I can’t assess myself

Put yourself in their position.  Imagine talking to the general public:

"X has gone wrong and this has ruined the car, how dare you, fix it now!"

"Well, if you'd checked Y and fixed that before it went wrong you would have been fine"

"I checked it, I know what I'm doing, my cousin did a night class in motor vehicle maintenance"

etc etc

There are YouTube channels dedicated to the incredible idiocy of motorists when it comes to maintenance.  So yeah, I can totally sympathise with the manufacturers on this one.  £370 for the 4 year service on my car is harder to swallow when they still did basically nothing, but that's the dealer being disingenuous. The coolant refresh is the reason the bill is usually £500 but it didn't need doing because it had been done under recall. However the dealer only knocked off the cost of the coolant itself and not the labour that would have gone with it.

I'm not looking forward to my next service as that's going to be another coolant replacement 🙁 I avoided the cost of the first one by having my service done at the same time as the recall too.

Getting dealer servicing has definitely been worth it for me as it keeps up the warranty, which is a reasonable 5yr / 100,000 miles.

Have had to have a good few items sorted early on - charge port, coolant fix, 6 wheels (corrosion under the coating)and about to have a window motor as the window often winds up and then goes down again!

I'll probably stick with the dealer services once the warranty runs out next year as the costs are not too bad for peace of mind to keep everything checked and in good order.

The minor services are maybe a little frustrating as it does seem to be not much more than an expensive clean.

 Getting dealer servicing has definitely been worth it for me as it keeps up the warranty, which is a reasonable 5yr / 100,000 miles.

you are not required to have dealer services to sustain a warranty are you? I thought this was established some years ago. If the warranty depends on service history then any valid service is sufficient. https://www.themotorombudsman.org/knowledge-base/do-i-have-to-have-my-vehicle-serviced-at-an-authorised-dealer

And as Martin Lewis has said: ‘warranty shmarranty’ you have statutory rights. That being said, LR Tesla battery and drivetrain warranty is ‘8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period’ https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/vehicle-warranty

you are not required to have dealer services to sustain a warranty are you?

No but I think you are required to have services of some kind.  And whilst you do have statutory rights regarding something being fit for purpose, it would seem that on a thing that needs regular inspection and maintenance it is not unreasonable to expect that maintenance to have been done. It's a bit like making a claim against Fox for worn stanchions when you haven't ever bothered to check or replace the lower leg oil and it's run dry. Fox could hardly be expected to cough up for that when they say something is specifically needed and you don't do it?

Re: warranty.

Maybe dont need main dealer servicing, but Hyundai definitely challenged the service history on one occasion when dealer hadnt updated the digital records.  When the service at main dealer is around £60, and I can work in there while waiting and drink their free coffee I dont mind going to them.  I'm not sure an independent would be any cheaper, and I doubt they would have the tools for the coolant flushes on the big service (Hyundai had to wait for special kit to do this).

you are not required to have dealer services to sustain a warranty are you? I thought this was established some years ago. If the warranty depends on service history then any valid service is sufficient.

Not quite *any* valid service. Then are some caveats about authorized service centres, competent persons and the use of OE or authorised alternative parts.

In the interests of research, and having a white icy road this morning, i tried it out.

Nice! Just tried mine too, couldn't even get it to lock up or slide, just braked to a stop.

Re. EV servicing. Took my Kia EV6 for its first annual service last month. Sat in a Starbuck’s opposite the garage working while I waited for the car to be serviced. I had a clear view of the dealer’s car park and could see my car.

After about 2 hours they took the car to the workshop. 25 minutes later it was back in the car park and I got the call to say the service had been done. Those 25 minutes included the technician making a video showing me the brakes and underside of the car, a wash and vacuum!

Manufacturers used to make a decent profit on every car they sold and then a fair bit more servicing and repairing those cars. With EVs a lot of manufacturers seem to be struggling to get their costs down to the point where they can make any sort of profit even with the current "EV premium" and helpful tax breaks. So, I can see why they are keen to hang on to as much of that servicing revenue as they can. The problem (for them) is that there really isn't much that needs doing and there is only so much people are going to be willing to pay for a wash, vacuum and visual check.

I think they are relying on the fact that ICE car drivers are used to paying for dealer servicing, at least for the length of the warranty and they hope they wont mind too much paying a similar amount to service their EV (even if very little actually needs to be done). Over time I guess independent service centres will spring up that will do an "EV service" while you wait for a lot less than the main dealer. A bit like the jiffy-lube places that Americans use for their regular oil changes. At that point I can see franchise dealerships disappearing as cars are bought online direct from the manufacturer and serviced at independent centres. But who knows, maybe they'll find a way to carry on.

Re. EV servicing. Took my Kia Ev6 for its annual service a month ago. Dropped it at 8.30am, as requested, and went to work. The Kia app notified me the doors were unlocked at 4.15pm, the bonnet was opened at 4.18pm. I had the phone call at 4.28pm to come and come and collect it. I gave watching the video a miss 🙂

That's funny 🙂 I guess with modern cars that have cameras all over the place and an app that let you view then, you could watch the service being done.

It has long been alleged that dealers make most of their money from servicing and EVs will erode much of that. It's usually Americans saying this so I don't know how much that applies here. But if it's true dealers will have to reduce the discounts they can give.

and adjusting the handbrake

Good luck with that without the computer

Good luck with that without the computer

My point was the handbrake will only need adjusting if it fails the MOT handbrake check.

Thus, I'm doubtful Volvo/Polestar adjust everyone's handbrake EVERY service!

DrP

EDIT - also, it seems, that if present a handbrake issue comes up on the infotainment, so a few prompts to guide towards if an issue is/isn't present.

It has long been alleged that dealers make most of their money from servicing

Not just alleged. Andy Palmer former COO of Nissan and CEO of Aston Martin admitted it on Xitter.

I took my e-Up for service to maintain the warranty. They changed the cabin air filter. Nothing else.

Just wanted to update on my EQA with regards to regen settings, collision prevention settings and all the other settings in the snow/ice.

I have intentionally (Where safe to do so) been a little ham-fisted with lifting off the accelerator when in max regen on slippy roads.  It has resulted in zero issues.  The car just takes care of it.  Absolutely delighted with it so far.

Must say compared to my previous RWD C Class AMG it seems to be a lot better

Thanks @Molgrips

That’s the info I wanted on the Ioniq. I did have a quick look at the Kona and I need to investigate more.
The local Renault garage also does Hyundai, so should manage to get something sorted.
I’ll report back.

Update - not much.
After much debate and considering options we've now sold the battery lease Zoe - I wouldn't trust Arnold Clark to not balls up taking on the lease, so I sold it to someone who bought the battery as part of the deal.

Not settled on anything yet. Was supposed to be test driving a Hyundai Kona and newer Zoe today, but the weather has put paid to that. My head says that the Hynudai is likley to be a better long term buy than the Zoe, but the smaller size and slightly longer range of the Zoe does appeal.

The search continues!

My point was the handbrake will only need adjusting if it fails the MOT handbrake check.

Probably.

My point was the simplest tasks on current cars requires the right laptop to be plugged into it. It's why dealers are always the best bet in the first 5 years.

Oh..I agree on that...

My warranty runs out in about 3 weeks...

I've had a few issues dealt with in the year I've had it:

-new 'ipad' screen - has a crack in it,behind the digitizer, from purchase. (Bought it second hand(. Went straight from purchase to Volvo (well, a week) and they warrantied it.

-faulty parking sensor... Volvo kinda implied it had a stone chip, but swapped it anyway.

-creaking suspension top bearing - seems to be a known issue with a technical journal recall present, so no issues getting that done... Has been agreed..waiting for the parts in the next few days.

This is the newest car I've ever owned (was 3 years old when I got it), but I think all these errors are exactly the kinda thing to appear in the first few years, so not overly fussed.

DrP

Smart already booked in for faulty door handle. Stupid bloody design. Looks funky but is essentially a bit silly. I’m all for keyless entry, but handles like the PS2 were just fine. These things that pop out. Ffs.

Pop out door handles: is there any actual benefit?
In the icy weather last week mine froze and wouldn’t pop out when I unlocked the car.
Took me a while to get the driver door handle out so I could get in the car. Stupid thing then froze in the out position and wouldn’t fold in.

Just had Michelin CC2 fitted. I think we can safely say that’s the last of the snow for this year 🙂

Smart already booked in for faulty door handle.

That's one of the things that is putting me off the Smart. I don't mind flush door handles as long as you can manually operate them. For example, I think the Tesla (and Renault?) door handles are flush but you can pop them out manually if they fail to pop out automatically, which is OK. But having to rely on them to pop out and retract automatically just seems like a problem waiting to happen as soon as it gets cold.

Mind you, I've considered so many EVs over the past few months and every single one of them has something that makes me think "no way, I couldn't live with that", which is why I'm still driving my old ICE car. Hopefully one day soon something major will go wrong with it and I'll be forced to finally choose an EV and just live with its issues 🙂

Re. Snow , ice.  i have regen on max and drive in eco mode, plus winter tyres

And I see plenty of snow and black ice, and more than anyone in Britain for sure.

But having to rely on them to pop out and retract automatically just seems like a problem waiting to happen as soon as it gets cold.

It really hasn't been, you just open the app 5 or 10 mins beforehand and put the heating on or put it in defrost mode. Which if  its freezing outside, you'd want to be doing anyway. Door handles have always worked for me

What car is that @B.A.Nana?

think it’s a bit of a myth that engine braking is better for snow.

Bit late to the game with this one - but yes engine braking is better than foot braking. As each individual cylinder compresses it builds braking torque until it reaches TDC then braking torque ramps down until the next cylinder compresses. It's kinda like 'soft' imperceptible ABS pulses.

And the reason I opened this thread.......

We have a NissanTownstar van at work which apart from it being too small (compared to the Ducato it replaced) has been well received. Question though (which I could probably Google), at what point do the brake lights come on when using regen braking? It has 3 levels with #3 being quite sharp/heavy braking and the default being very mild.

I’d expect it to be linked to the deceleration rate, rather than the regen setting (it is on my car).

There are multiple systems that can request a deceleration (adaptive cruise, collision avoidance, even the driver), with higher regen levels your really just getting more “engine breaking” (in an ICE sense), before having to press the brake pedal. Even when you press the brake pedal, the demanded deceleration may be achieved just by regen breaking, without the foundation brakes (disks and pads) having to get involved. Foundation brakes usually come in as you come to a stop, as they’ll be needed for auto-hold type features.

There may be some variance between different cars depending on how well they’ve tuned the brake blending algorithms.

Pop out door handles: is there any actual benefit?

Aero, that's about it. We've been chasing the next 0,1% of drag reduction since i started in the industry.

The aero stuff you have now on a stock family saloon would have only been found on a very economy focused car (Prius sort of thing) 15-20 years ago. Pop out handles apparently look cool as well, according to the styling guys...

I’d expect it to be linked to the deceleration rate, rather than the regen setting (it is on my car).

It is. 3 years ago, industry guideline was 1.2 m/s2 deceleration for brakelights on with vehicle instructed deceleration. 200ms timer for driver instructed (after detection of pressing the brake pedal). Most manufacturers hit the lights around 1m/s2 for all the auto deceleration systems.

Makes no difference to what braking system is actually used, just the input (pedal/automatic) and the net rate of deceleration.

I think regen braking is better on snow or ice , as is anything else that stops sudden acceleration, deceleration

What car is that @B.A.Nana?

Model3 so ignore me, I've since re-read what you wrote and realised I initially misunderstood the context of what you wrote. So yes the model3 / Y is a manual handle that has some advantage when frozen. TBH They're a love/ hate design, it looks nice having clean lines, but you're forever having to open the doors for people who've never used a Tesla door handle before.

TBH They’re a love/ hate design, it looks nice having clean lines, but you’re forever having to open the doors for people who’ve never used a Tesla door handle before.

About 25 years ago I owned a TVR cerbera , they didnt have door handles at all, just a small button under the wing mirror that when pressed would pop the door open. That confused everyone...