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Good point both. Thanks. I think what shocked me was the difference between the quoted (WLTP) range of 250 miles and the worst case scenario of having to stop to recharge every 100 miles. As you say it probably wouldn't be that bad in practice and if it's just me in the car I don't really mind having a few more stops. More of a pain if we've got the whole family in the car and are trying to get the journey done as quickly as possible though.
I think this is one of the issues with EVs (and cars in general really). We tend to buy cars based on the most challenging scenario we might face rather than day to day. For every day use (if you can charge at home) an EV (even with a fairly low range) should be fine. Cheaper to run than an ICE car and you probably wouldn't need to visit a garage/charger for months on end. But we get put off by the fact that it would be a pain for that one journey we do where an ICE car is better.
My most “challenging” journey would be the annual Christmas trip from Aberdeenshire to East Anglia. Just over 500 miles, most of which is dual carriageway or motorway and of course it’s cold in December. So for that journey I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles. Ouch! Of course you wouldn’t really want to drop much below 10% to avoid anxiety and once it reaches 80% the charging seems to slow to a trickle. So really you need to look at 70% of that for the distance between charges, which is only 100 miles. That would get pretty annoying.
For comparison my petrol (AWD) car can easily go 300 miles between refuel stops all year round. That’s more than I need, but means that the car is hardly ever the reason why I stop on a long journey. In practice 200 miles would probably be fine, but 100 is pretty woeful. OK, I could just choose a more sensible car, but I’m far too old to start getting sensible now 🙂
Only 300 miles! My diesel will do 700 miles on a tank - for that one trip I've done in 5 years when I went to the Home Counties & back...
C'mon, you're choosing a car based on a once a year event, that's like only buying a house big enough to cover for the annual in-laws visit.
Range anxiety is real…but only for people who have never actually driven a long journey in an EV.
Charger availability anxiety on those notoriously busy travel days like Christmas Eve or hot bank holidays is real though but it’s getting better every day.
Yes, as I said further up the thread, I'm not actually opposed to just renting an ICE car for the odd trip where it would be the better option. It's not as though you save much in "fuel" given the cost of public fast chargers. And, to be honest, the wife and kids took the train last time we went south anyway and I just plodded down in the car with the dogs so we had something to use while we were down there. I don't think it helps the sales of EVs that the WLTP range is so far away from what people report in practice though.
I had a look at the Smart #1 Brabus edition (because I’m basically a child and we’ve driven AWD cars for donkeys years). WLTP range 249 miles. That should be enough to cover all of my needs. What’s all the fuss about?
So I had a look on ev-database.org No idea how accurate they are. They quote “real world” ranges for cars that aren’t released yet, which is a bit of a worry, but at least they try to give realistic figures. They reckon the “real range” is more like 200 miles. Not so good, but then it gets much worse.
My most “challenging” journey would be the annual Christmas trip from Aberdeenshire to East Anglia. Just over 500 miles, most of which is dual carriageway or motorway and of course it’s cold in December. So for that journey I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles. Ouch! Of course you wouldn’t really want to drop much below 10% to avoid anxiety and once it reaches 80% the charging seems to slow to a trickle. So really you need to look at 70% of that for the distance between charges, which is only 100 miles. That would get pretty annoying.
I've got one of those, never seen another out in the wild! Did Bathgate to Blackpool in February or March, cold rainy day. Had only just got it so had a huge amount of range anxiety, stopped once on the way down for a quick lunch break length charge, very slow charge for an hour in Blackpool and a couple of coffee break charge stops on the way home. Didn't need the last one but it's a decent A road last section and a charge meant I could stick it in Brabus mode. Realistically even on the coldest of days I'd be pretty confident on 150+ miles comfortable range, still not the best but not as bad as your calculations.
First thought was you're probably being a bit negative on the range but re-reading it you're probably not far off in terms of leaving a bit of safety and getting a quick charge, doubt it would be quite as bad as 100 miles but probably a sensible worst case to plan to.
It's an absolute riot to drive, there is zero wheel spin it just launches and no one knows what they are so never expects it to go like that.
Mine very rarely goes long distances so haven't tested it in the warmer weather but it shows about 190 miles from 90% and it seems to be pretty realistic.
I don’t think it helps the sales of EVs that the WLTP range is so far away from what people report in practice though.
Car manufacturers have always represented their car in ultra idealised statistics long before EVs were a thing. It used to be MPG at a constant 56mph on a rolling road with no air resistance.
Now it’s range because people don’t yet have a grasp on what EV efficiency numbers mean to them.
Is 3 m/kwh good or bad? The average punter in the street has no idea.
To be fair, some manufacturers are more honest than others. My car has a WLTP of 321 miles and if we had a week of 25°c a d I turned the aircon off, that would be achievable. getting 300 miles ish in the summer and 270-ish in the winter. It’s plenty
Thanks @stevemtb I doubt I'll actually buy anything for a while yet and may have moved onto something else by then, but we had a Smart ForFour many years ago and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the brand. The Brabus versions were always bonkers and didn't even try to make sense really, which I like.
I don't think it's a matter of manufacturers' honesty it's just that the test protocols flatter some vehicles more than others. It's the same with ICEs. Small not very powerful cars will be driven by users much as they are in the test. However something like a Jag will go through much of the test procedure just tickling the trottle, whereas owners will use more of the performance available and get lousy economy compared to the test results.
I have no complaints about the range/economy of any recent cars I've driven. Drive gently and smoothly within the speed limits and I get pretty much what is claimed for that type of road in the tests in Summer. Less in Winter whether ICE or EV. EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference - I have.
Great, so now I have to build a garage too 🙂
I think one of the big issues with EV adoption is that we tend to compare them to ICE cars and focus on where they may be worse but forget that we live in a society that has been built around ICE cars. If we'd all grown up driving EVs and charging them outside wherever we lived then the idea of buying a car that you had to take to one of these newfangled garages miles away to refuel would seem bonkers.
They are a different transport solution really and require a different way of thinking.
One thing that I probably need to rethink myself is my obsession with AWD. I've always liked this for traction/safety reasons but with EVs a twin-motor seems to be more about bonkers performance than anything else. Of course, while I certainly don't need that performance, knowing that it exists does make it hard to resist.
I doubt there's a current EV that doesn't have ESP/traction control. I find that at least matches cars of old with a limited slip diff - and beats older generation 4 wheel drives unless they had diff locks. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with a current EV on Crossclimates in a whole variety of conditions.
Of course, while I certainly don’t need that performance, knowing that it exists does make it hard to resist.
You’d think so but that’s not been my experience.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car.
It’s a more relaxed vibe and you don’t want to harsh your buzz with aggression.
EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference – I have.
Or precondition the car before leaving whilst its on the charger. Teslas heat or cool the battery when you do this- some other makes might.
EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference
really ? I reckon pressing the cabin preconditioning button on the phone app for my i4 around 10 mins of so before getting into it on a sub zero frosty morning takes maybe 15 miles tops off the range, and costs about 30 pence.
Car is fully defrosted, cabin is at 20 degrees or whatever I previously had it at, drivers seat and steering wheel are heated and warm.
This is one of the many joys of the EV experience.
Car manufacturers have always represented their car in ultra idealised statistics long before EVs were a thing.
Nah, just following the standards laid down by governments over the years. WLTP (and all the other standards over the years!) can only *really* be used to compare cars in the same sort of class/size/weight/performance.
It used to be MPG at a constant 56mph on a rolling road with no air resistance.
I've looked through reports going back to the 1980's and never seen that!
The i4 battery unit weighs 500kg. Now work out how much energy is required to get that from say zero to 12°C. Your cabin might be warm but the battery will take much longer to warm up.
Driving the Zoe out of the garage at 12°C everything works fine right from the off. Leave it outside in sub zero temperatures and even after 10 minutes of pre-heating the battery is still so cold there's a big red warning to say the regen isn't working, and the range is lousy.
I’ve looked through reports going back to the 1980’s and never seen that!
Exaggeration for comic effect innit. The point being that the advertised figures have always been at odds with the real ones because people don’t drive in the standardised way. It’s not just an EV thing.
Now work out how much energy is required to get that from say zero to 12°C.
I have no interest in doing that, overnight charging on IO is so cheap and I rarely need to use more than 50% of the range in a day. On such an occasion, after letting it warm up and driving it around on a typical cold West of Scotland icy, sub or near zero winters day, it still has 250 miles worth of range if starting off at 95%
even after 10 minutes of pre-heating the battery is still so cold there’s a big red warning to say the regen isn’t working, and the range is lousy.
sounds more like a shortfall in your car than a general EV thing ! 🙂
I doubt there’s a current EV that doesn’t have ESP/traction control. I find that at least matches cars of old with a limited slip diff – and beats older generation 4 wheel drives unless they had diff locks. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with a current EV on Crossclimates in a whole variety of conditions.
Interesting point. I noticed that most single motor EVs tend to be RWD and my experience of RWD cars is mostly watching older BMWs sliding all over the Aberdeenshire roads every time the snow fell. In truth we don't get the heavy snow that we used to get 20 years ago when we abandoned 2WD cars. The roads are also more busy that they were in those days and whether you can make progress or not often depends as much on what everyone else is doing as your own car. Maybe a 2WD car with decent tyres and decent traction control would cope OK. Especially with a shovel and some snow traction mats in the boot for those country lanes. Still seems like a bit of a backward step but probably does require a bit more thought.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car.
It’s a more relaxed vibe and you don’t want to harsh your buzz with aggression.
Another interesting point. As I hurtle towards 60 myself I am finally starting to realise that I don't actually need my car to do the same. When I jump in my wife's little Ignis (or my son's little 1.2L Swift) I do find the lack of power strangely refreshing. No choice but to just take it easy. Give me a smooth quiet car with CarPlay and an awesome stereo and maybe I could live without bonkers power. Maybe 🙂
Give me a smooth quiet car with CarPlay and an awesome stereo and maybe I could live without bonkers power.
The point is, you don’t have to live without the bonkers power. You just don’t really feel the need to wield it because you don’t have anything to prove.
That's an interesting question. Which EV has the best audio system?
sounds more like a shortfall in your car than a general EV thing ! 🙂
Drive your car up to a ski resort in January, leave it outside then get back to us with how much range you have and the amount of regen braking on tap. It's quite handy having a warning about limited regen because when you're used to one-pedal driving it's a bit odd having to brake for bends.
err, no thanks, but thanks for the suggestion.
100kw motor is plenty for the 99.8% of driving that I do. Occasionally I'll use the normal driving mode and I might engage sport mode on special occasions.
Which EV has the best audio system?
The posh version of my povvy spec Genesis GV60 is supposed to have a top notch audio system with active noise cancellation.
The lack of engine noise and vibration makes even a bog standard setup sound better than it would in an ICE car.
My Q4 Quattro has 310hp, so fairly quick. I’ve always had fast ICE, previous car was a Cupra and an AMG Merc.
I’ve said this before, but I drove the ICE cars too quick. Long journeys I’d always be in the right lane waiting for people to move out of my way. The EV is just a totally different driving experience. Way less stressful, it’s almost serene. I arrive to work after my 30 mile commute less stressed. I actually enjoy the drive now. In fact, I look forward to my long trip I do every month.
For me personally, even though I know the power is there, I’m much more content to enjoy the relaxing nature of the drive. Honestly there is a fight between me and missus about who is going to drive as we both want to do it. She’s always asking if she can use the EV, she has an ICE still and much prefers the EV.
Even stopping for a coffee to charge up is fairly relaxing….as much as a motorway service station can be.
If my EV was the single motor 200hp version I honestly don’t think I would notice.
Best sound system, possibly: Renault Scenic techno option "iconic" which has Harman Kardon audio.
In answer to the best sound system in an ev question…..
My Q4 had the Audi Sound Cube……10 Sonos speakers. No idea how good it is compared to others, but I like it. I’m sure there are better or others similar…..
https://electrichasgoneaudi.net/models/q4-e-tron/technology/soundsystem/
Here’s a shedload of EV audio system reviews .
I’d imagine that it’s all totally subjective anyway and they all sound pretty good to the average ear
In answer to the best sound system in an ev question…..
clearly the one that makes vroom vroom noises in Sport mode 🙂
Thanks. I should have realised that there would be a youtube channel dedicated to reviewing car audio systems 🙂 To be honest, given the sort of punky stuff I listen to I probably shouldn't be worrying about it too much. I basically just want it to go loud without distorting any more than it did when it was recorded 🙂
I find the power/speed the complete opposite a lot of the time, no one expects the Smart to do 0-60 under 4 seconds and I find a lot of enjoyment surprising them.
Completely agree on the commuting comments though, podcast or audiobook on, dynamic cruise, occasionally grip the wheel harder when it complains at having to do all the work. Lovely and relaxing on what's normally a stressful activity.
13 speaker Beats stereo should also feature highly on the audio systems question, but not as good (loud) as I'd hoped it would be. Came with a blown speaker and all the settings turned up to max so suspect someone in the delivery chain also wanted to see how loud it would go.
I'm not bothered about a traffic lights grand prix (quite the opposite) but do like the instant and totally reliable go when feeding into traffic at roundabouts or pulling out into gaps in traffic on a major road.
You’d think so but that’s not been my experience.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car
completely agree...
I've had a 200bhp civic type-r, a 180bhp skoda Octavia (remapped)..and both of those were fun to drive, but felt like they needed 'work'.
The Polestar has 476bhp (which, frankly, is bonkers!) but apart from the odd sprightly overtake, or 'rocket launch's from traffic lights (as my daughter calls it) it's the most gentle car to drive!
Also..has a Harmon Kardon sound system which is, quite frankly, fantastic!
DrP
Re lack of Regen braking at 100% charge - in my old ETron this was noticeable but it’s not in the i4 - either BMW allows a bit of extra charge into the battery for this or the friction brakes are blended in well and applied automatically (the brakes and Regen are all electronically controlled so it can do this).
Re speed - as others have said it’s nice to have a lot of acceleration available when needed or for occasional fun but 99% of the time I drive slower now than in previous ICE cars.
Re range and charging - it’s a non issue on the i4 due to its range. It’s got 74% charge right now and we’ve got to drive from Devon to Cambridge tomorrow - a 5+ hr drive which will have us stopping at least once possibly terce for comfort and toilet stops. The car however has just about got enough charge to do it without stopping. I’ll give it a quick 5-10 kw.hr squirt at a convenient point just for a bit of margin but that could be at any one of about 40+ rapid chargers along the way so a total non issue.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
Not here. Hyundai are still updating software on my discontinued car with actual significant improvements and features.
Also, my range estimate number is accurate (actually conservative) and it hardly deviates from the WTLP in winter whilst exceeding it in summer.
I think the poor range numbers in winter are perhaps clouded by short trips in slow traffic with the heating on high. This means that the heater is always pulling 1.5kW to get the car warm in a short period but you're doing very few miles against which to offset that. This causes the range figure on your dash to plummet. But that's not really important since by definition if you are doing short slow trips you don't need a lot of range. Get on the motorway for an hour and then heater consumption drops to 300W and you're doing 70mph the range will look far better.
Maybe a 2WD car with decent tyres and decent traction control would cope OK.
I live on a hillside, accessed by a dirt track in a forest in Scandinavia, i've got stuck once in 2 decades. Driving an assortment of 2wd cars.
Including a good number of single motor EVs. A few lowered Volvos (R-Design and Polestar engineered) plus some Porsches, Audi, Tesla, VW (EV and ICE).
Anything modern will do it, no problems.
Drive your car up to a ski resort in January, leave it outside then get back to us with how much range you have and the amount of regen braking on tap. It’s quite handy having a warning about limited regen because when you’re used to one-pedal driving it’s a bit odd having to brake for bends.
The regen issue (changing response to one pedal drive) is 100% a car problem, it's running old hardware/software. Brake blending is pretty common now. The range issue is just physics, so as expected. Should leave it plugged in, even a 13 Amp socket should have enough grunt to keep the battery charging (albeit slowly) and warm. It does when i bring EVs home and charge on the drive.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
The core systems used in EV are no different to motor/drive systems used in industry. I have a few companies that keep my shop floor running down to component level of repair. There's no reason why these companies couldn't repair EV drives and charging systems.
Grey/after market will spring up to repair/replace touchscreens etc. My 20year old Porsche LCD screen has a fading issue - replacements are available from eBay @ £50. The outdated entertainment system is replaceable either via an updated Porsche factory unit or aftermarket Android.
Fundamentally EV's are far simpler and easier to keep running long term than an ICE, I'm looking forward to £500 EV bangernomics where I don't have to worry about engines and gearboxes.
That’s an interesting question. Which EV has the best audio system?
My Tesla Model Y has the best sound system of any car I've owned.
I’ll ask the ski resort to equip every parking place with a 13A socket like they do in Finland. 😉
Hmmmmm, most of the resorts i've been to in the Alps have had outside sockets for either block heaters, or just because. Though i've not been to an Alpine resort since before the kids were born!
My Tesla Model Y has the best sound system of any car I’ve owned.
Didn't they do a sneaky downgrade on a good number of the sound system options on some Teslas last year?
Lower spec/smaller speakers and a reduction in number? (Even have a vague recollection of a cheaper amp?)
Believe the sound system is downgraded on the base Model Y RWD on US produced models only so far. European and UK cars come from Berlin and China. Ours (picked up in May) still has a subwoofer..
Currently plugged into the wall in the parking space at the ski chalet we're staying at in the Tarantaise area.
The drive down here from London was uneventful and long. Going back we'll spend a bit more time planning as a few of the Superchargers we used coming here were in random locations with no facilities, so we couldn't easily overlap charging the car with family refueling..
The bike on the roof reduced efficiency a fair bit. Sea Sucker rack was fine though..
I was told that the “Premium” audio in the Long Range variant is unbranded Bang and Olufson. Take that as you will.
Would have an ID 7 over a Model Y at this point. Better build quality, more space, longer range, not going to be keyed by everyone who walks past it, and no money going to Musk Enterprises. Especially not since they tacitly admitted on Twitter that they have no intention of bringing things like auto park to the UK due to the fact we’re RHD.
be keyed by everyone who walks past it,
Is this a thing with a Tesla?
I suspect the kind of people who object to Musk aren't the kind of people who'll key cars 🙂
The kind of people who would key cars are the type of people who would definitely key a Tesla though.
Tesla drivers get pigeonholed in much the same way as Audi drivers and white van men.
I'm looking forward to some cheap charging over the next few days thanks to the remnants of a hurricane and the possibility of some sunshine on some solar panels somewhere in the country. Agile tariff and a 3 pin plug.
Radio in the ioniq is ok. I'm no audio expert so not to fussy.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
There are legal requirements in most markets to support with service, spares and software for around a decade after end of production (think the shortest is 7 years, longest might be 12. I'd have to double check though.)
Some manufacturers get round this by calling a major facelift or new top hat a completely new model. But the authorities are getting wise to this. Will be an interesting thing to watch for, especially as everyone is moving to much more long lived platforms, with multiple tophats.
The thing you will probably lose sooner is feature upgrades and improvements. That might only be a couple of years after end of production, or you might need to pay for it, if the hardware is still capable of carrying the upgrades. But the update cycle for automotive OS is much longer than most consumer electronics and the backwards compatibility requirements much stronger.
Interesting times.
I suspect the kind of people who object to Musk aren’t the kind of people who’ll key cars 🙂
We've had our Tesla test cars keyed, on site.
I really wish Elon would settle TF down...
I'm just about ready to go electric on the family car after long agonising over it.
It needs to be new, as it's being purchased through business, and the model Y ticks pretty much every box.
Pleasingly, I found out last week that Tesla have a Highland popup test centre in Inverness with a Y and a 3 so I took the Y out for two hour blocks. It's really, really good.
I'll likely order a long range this week, but the behaviour of the CEO certainly gives pause.
He's just such a high profile bellend despite heading up some incredible people doing spectacular things.
There's a fair chance that the top brass in other large companies I've dealt with recently (RBS, Currys, VW, Amazon , Microsoft, FB, Tesco, Lidl....)are also throbbers, but conveniently keep it lower key. Musk is a level above in the dickhead race.
What a great car though!
bedmakerFull Member
I really wish Elon would settle TF down…I’m just about ready to go electric on the family car after long agonising over it.
It needs to be new, as it’s being purchased through business, and the model Y ticks pretty much every box.
Pleasingly, I found out last week that Tesla have a Highland popup test centre in Inverness with a Y and a 3 so I took the Y out for two hour blocks. It’s really, really good.
I’ll likely order a long range this week, but the behaviour of the CEO certainly gives pause.
He’s just such a high profile bellend despite heading up some incredible people doing spectacular things.
There’s a fair chance that the top brass in other large companies I’ve dealt with recently (RBS, Currys, VW, Amazon , Microsoft, FB, Tesco, Lidl….)are also throbbers, but conveniently keep it lower key. Musk is a level above in the dickhead race.
What a great car though!
Yeah hard to partition that sometimes. Especially when he's taking such a load of cash from Tesla.
Does the Y use indicator buttons instead of a stalk like the new 3? If so how did you find it? I think it would drive me crackers.
Does the Y use indicator buttons instead of a stalk like the new 3? If so how did you find it? I think it would drive me crackers.
Still stalks, the update to similar spec to the 3 is due next spring sometime apparently.
I didn't drive the 3, but I'd imagine the lack of stalks is a backwards step, like the hideous haptic touch buttons on the VW idbuzz.
Musk is a level above in the dickhead race.
Can't argue with that but I'd rather buy a car from a dickhead than from a company that has killed thousands of people by selling cars that broke emissions limits, been fined billions and had a senior executive sent to prison.
Can’t argue with that but I’d rather buy a car from a dickhead than from a company that has killed thousands of people by selling cars that broke emissions limits, been fined billions and had a senior executive sent to prison.
Hmm, not sure about this. I'd suspect that VW aren't doing these things any more, but Musk is still a dick. Let's not forget that lots of companies of all types did shitty things in the past. The Ford Pinto scandal was far worse than what VW did.
@bedmaker what other cars did you try? Plenty of choice out there.
I’d suspect that VW aren’t doing these things any more, but Musk is still a dick
Why don't we add conspiring with BMW and Daimler to fix the price of steel and restrict the deployment of emissions reduction technology? But never mind all that, one of 180,000 people at Tesla is a dick so we mustn't buy any of their cars.
Can’t argue with that but I’d rather buy a car from a dickhead than from a company that has killed thousands of people by selling cars that broke emissions limits, been fined billions and had a senior executive sent to prison.
Oh, I didn't realise there were only 2 auto manufacturers...
Oh, I didn’t realise there were only 2 auto manufacturers…
Just one example. I gave two others above who's corporate cultures and ethics you might like to consider before buying from them..
He’s very much a far-right throbber and I have no doubt that Tesla management are working on a way to evict him from the job. Until then though he’s having a massively negative effect on their sales in the UK, in my opinion. The people who subscribe to his views are now in prison as opposed to buying Teslas - although I wouldn’t be surprised if this works as a sales boost among the rednecks he’s courting in the USA.
I’ve still not decided whether to get a replacement Model 3 on the work scheme and it’s about 90% down to Musk, and 10% down to “this car doesn’t feel like great value for money” with the number of features on the new one that are locked out or inop for RHD markets. On the bright side the Australians like Teslas, and they mostly subscribe to his unpleasant and backward opinions too.
I’m not one for arguing over which multibillion dollar corporation is better, but the obvious difference between Elon and VW is that VW were caught and punished, whereas Elon has been getting worse and worse since the Thai cave rescue fiasco and gets away with it.
I don’t think owners of Tesla’s are all far right misogynistic incels, but I do think they care more about how well the buttons work in their cars than how much damage Trump and Elon are doing to our civilisation.
Personally I wouldn't buy a Tesla and that is down to Musk, but I wouldn't have any issues buying a VAG car. Don't suppose it makes sense but I doubt I'm alone. Most car purchases are pretty irrational really.
Anyway, back to more interesting things:
I live on a hillside, accessed by a dirt track in a forest in Scandinavia, i’ve got stuck once in 2 decades. Driving an assortment of 2wd cars.
Thanks. I guess it's been over 20 years since we last bought a 2WD car. Although I know that 2WD+good tyres beats 4WD with average tyres I still think that 4WD+good tyres is going to be the safest option up here. But we don't get the snow we got 20 years ago and obviously traction control systems (and tyres) have come a long way in that time. With ICE cars there wasn't really a reason not to go with 4WD (or AWD) cars. They were a bit more expensive to buy and run but didn't really change what you can do other than being a bit safer when conditions were bad. With EVs you have to sacrifice some range to get a dual motor setup (as there is usually a single motor version of the same car that goes further) so you could end up regretting that decision on longer journeys I guess.
Thanks to all the people who took the time to respond to my comments/questions. I won't quote them all here but have read them all and found them very useful.
I'm now wrestling with this issue of insane power in an EV. It seems strange to live in a world where I could buy a car that goes from 0-60mph in under 4s. That is the super-car performance that my adolescent self dreamt of and since I never actually grew up it is very hard to resist. But we're back to the dual motor issue and the price you have to pay in reduced range. Plus would/should I actually use that insane acceleration. A few people have commented that they don't but obviously still like having it. But if you aren't going to use it is it really worth paying the price in reduced range/efficiency? Where is it actually a real-world advantage to be able to accelerate that quickly?
I've never had an issue getting up to speed on a slip road. I guess it would allow me to nip out in front of people who are a bit closer (or going a bit faster) at junctions and roundabouts. But is that a good idea? If they are too close for you to be able to pull out in a car with normal acceleration maybe they are just too close. If in doubt, chicken out as the driving instructor tried to drill into my son.
I do use the acceleration of my current car to get in front of other cars sometimes, but nine times out of ten it just results in them being even more determined to get past again, which they can always do by taking more risks or being more aggressive. So you end up doing 100 mph down the dual carriageway trying to see who can brake later and hang on round the roundabout. Well I do, which probably means that I shouldn't be allowed to drive anything that accelerates faster than a milk float 🙂
Where is it actually a real-world advantage to be able to accelerate that quickly?
It isn't. It never was. It's a bizarre trend started by Tesla as a way to convince petrolheads that electricity is 'better'
It always makes more sense to have a single motor and bigger battery (range). It irritates me when makers have a big battery EV, and it's only for the dual motor model.
Polestar have got this right (long range, single motor) and Volvo missed it (XC40 - Single motor, smaller battery) despite being the same company. I think they are waking up to it on the new models though.
A proper 500mile range EV at a sensible price point will be a game changer. BMW are promising it on the next gen EV, but we'll see.
Plus would/should I actually use that insane acceleration.
I would not use it as a matter of course, but IMO when overtaking slower traffic it could be useful. If you live in an area where the main roads are windy and single carriageway then it can make a difference. That said, a 6 or 7s 0-60 time is probably enough. I don't think I would get a dual motor car to lose 10% of the range.
A proper 500mile range EV at a sensible price point will be a game changer
I think this would be a terrible idea. No-one needs to drive that far in one go. For perspective, it's 417 miles from London to Edinburgh. Can you imagine there being no free rapid chargers anywhere along that route? Even today there are hundreds. A 500 mile car is going to use 50% more valuable battery resources than is realistically needed, and for what? Hardly anyone is going to use it. You're not going to drive 6-7hrs in one go.
What we need is 300 mile cars that charge quickly, and charging stations everywhere. If we can halve the average time spent charging then we will effectively double the number of available chargers. That said, I think that when people stop they often tend to stop for at least half an hour anyway, so maybe even that's fast enough.
The second biggest problem for Teslas is that they are ugly.
If you live in an area where the main roads are windy and single carriageway then it can make a difference.
Good point and I do 🙂 It's probably the only place where I could legitimately argue that my car is safer than, say, my wife's car as I spend less time on the wrong side of the road getting past slow moving traffic. Mind you, that does mean that I look for spaces to pass in my car but when I'm in my wife's I don't bother looking unless there is a long clear straight and just stick on a podcast instead (and annoy all the people behind who now have two cars to try to pass 🙂 ).
It does make me wonder why people always quote 0-60 times though when something like 40-70 is a more useful real-world measure. This is where the old petrol turbo engines were fun. Not so fast off the line as the turbo didn't kick in until 2,000 rpm but a nice bit of power just where you needed it. I guess with an EV that isn't an issue though and the 40-70 mph time will be proportional to the 0-62 anyway.
It’s probably the only place where I could legitimately argue that my car is safer than, say, my wife’s car
As you allude, a faster car should not be safer as you should never overtake in too small a gap. The faster car can be quicker because a smaller gap is now safe and there are more smaller gaps.
In terms of acceleration, in an EV it does tail off as you go faster unlike an ICE which builds as you go up through the rev range.
That said, a 6 or 7s 0-60 time is probably enough.
This is the question I'm trying to wrestle with. A sub 7s 0-60 time is plenty. That's hot hatch territory. Why would I possibly want more than that? Except I could have something that could do 0-60 in under 4s and how cool would that be 🙂
A 500 mile car is going to use 50% more valuable battery resources than is realistically needed, and for what? Hardly anyone is going to use it. You’re not going to drive 6-7hrs in one go.
This gets back to a point I was making earlier about not understanding the obsession with range. I still think what we need (and what will come) is better charger infrastructure rather than ever longer range. But, to be fair, a 500 mile WLTP range probably wouldn't be any more than 400 miles on the motorway (maybe less in winter) and you wouldn't want to drop below 10% or charge beyond 80% so you need to look at 70% of that, which is "only" 280 miles between refuelling stops. That is still a bit less than most petrol cars do on a tank of fuel. Given that you can fit a fuel tank of almost any size in an ICE car, there is presumably a reason why most ICE cars can go at least 300 miles between refuelling stops. I guess that marks the point at which "range" stops being an issue (i.e. you will almost always want to stop before your car says you have to) with the current infrastructure. So I guess it's not a bad benchmark for an EV.
A quick squirt of the accelerator is fun and helps get around traffic. I use it once or twice per commute I guess (yes, the ability to accelerate amazingly fast is turning me into a bit of a nob).
Really not noticed a significant impact on range as a result. Don't forget that the increased speed will get scrubbed off by regen braking, so used charge is recovered somewhat.
If you're that troubled by it, most electric cars have an Eco mode which limits the max acceleration (they also have a sporty mode which opens it up more).
I think you're overthinking all this. Buy a car, use it.
Having driven in the UK recently I can't get my head around people here seeing overtaking performance important. Most people were driving up to the limit and if anyone wasn't a queue soon formed so I'd have had to overtake dozens of cars to achieve anything other than change my place in the line.
Other people were sensibly not bothering to try to overtake, there were few gaps in oncoming traffic and if there was a gap the next on-coming car was often speeding.
High risk no reward. Pointless. Leave a good gap, relax and enjoy whatever you have on the audio.
A proper 500mile range EV at a sensible price point will be a game changer.
Absolute bobbins. Mine does 280miles to a charge. No way am I driving that far without a break, and if I'm having a break I might as well charge, and I've never had an issue charging.
Buy the car. Use it.
A quick squirt of the accelerator is fun and helps get around traffic. I use it once or twice per commute I guess (yes, the ability to accelerate amazingly fast is turning me into a bit of a nob).
That's the problem. I don't think I need any help in that department 🙂
I think you’re overthinking all this.
Oh, that's a given. Overthinking is what I do best.
The thing is that there is this (hypothetical) sensible option I could (and should) go for. But then there is this bonkers option that I could (but shouldn't) go for too. The bonkers option makes no sense except to my inner child. But then my inner child isn't suddenly going to shut up just because I went with the sensible option. Maybe I should just save the money I was thinking of spending on an EV and spend it on therapy instead 🙂
Having driven in the UK recently I can’t get my head around people here seeing overtaking performance important. Most people were driving up to the limit and if anyone wasn’t a queue soon formed so I’d have had to overtake dozens of cars to achieve anything other than change my place in the line.
It all depends on where you are. In many places, yes you're absolutely right. But in say, Mid Wales - take the A470 as an example - it's generally pretty quiet, but you do get held up by single 40-50mph vehicles quite often. So the ability to get past them easily and get on with your journey really does help, even if you are sticking to the limits yourself.
The i4 40 does a claimed 5.7 to 60 and is plenty quick - faster than could ever be needed. It drives like a car that's quite a bit quicker as the power delivery is instant - no waiting for turbos to spool up, change down a gear or two or the revs to build.
A real world range of 300 miles is absolutely enough. There is no way I could ever drive it from full to empty without at least a couple of stops. 300 miles is 5 hrs driving at an average 60MPH - you can't do average of 60MPH in the UK for that long unless you're purely on motorways and it's very quiet. In the real world it's more like 7 hrs to drain the battery. What the longer range DOES do is give more flexibility to charging stops, so you can cherry pick the lowest cost or most convenient or the one without any queues etc. Or - more commonly for me - be able to do fairly long round trips without charging at all (or at least very little) which keeps the cost down.
It seems strange to live in a world where I could buy a car that goes from 0-60mph in under 4s. That is the super-car performance that my adolescent self dreamt of and since I never actually grew up it is very hard to resist.
And then you get into BEV supercar territory where 0-60 is a chunk under 3 seconds and then they keep on accelerating at the same rate. 0-200 kph in ~10 seconds is organ re-arrangingly quick and i would doubt whether even 1% of the customers buying these cars (even the sub 5 second ones!) are in any way capable of dealing with that sort of acceleration if they get even the slightest bit outside the envelope where traction control helps. (or when they turn it off.)
It’s a bizarre trend started by Tesla as a way to convince petrolheads that electricity is ‘better’
Pretty much this, if you want a big battery that charges fast, and motors/invertor/battery that are efficient and allow you to regenerate even the smallest amount of energy, speccing the powerpack up to accelerate like a race car is just a matter of going from 16 mm cable to 20mm and changing a few of parameters in the system. Then managing the heat. The rest of the hardware is already there and capable.
He’s just such a high profile bellend despite heading up some incredible people doing spectacular things.
He mostly gets in the way, shouts at people and sacks them if they disagree with him or if they refuse to sign off on something that he thinks is good enough. There are some issues at Tesla which the authorities are picking at now. God knows how many court cases his legal team are fighting at the moment. Certainly into 4 digits.
The A470, the most dangerous road in Wales, and still up there even if you take into account the length.
I worked for Welsh Water based in Aberaeron for 5 years driving 20 000 miles or more sampling, investgaing, site visiting so I'm familiar with those roads which despite low traffic levels have a lot of crashes, often misjudged overtakes.
My landlord's son, a farmer, had an overtaking accident - a tractor pulled out only looking the way he was expecting cars to come from. He lived. Decades later I was reading the Welsh press online and realised the person killed in a similar collision was the landlord's grandaughter. 🙁
A car that accelerates well gives drivers the feeling the can make safe overtakes with shorter gaps. The reality is that when you overtake another vehicle doing 50 you're on the wrong side of the road well over the speed limit and someone doing the same as you might be coming the other way.
The reality is that when you overtake another vehicle doing 50 you’re on the wrong side of the road well over the speed limit and someone doing the same as you might be coming the other way.
Yep, all part of how to drive in the countryside. But the point stands - UK roads are not all as you describe.
I can't find a reference to the A470 being the most dangerous road though. I have regularly driven some awful dangerous roads and I can't say I've ever felt the A470 was dangerous. Windy roads between population centres or linking up bits of motorway tend to be the worst - the A417 between Ledbury and Gloucester was utterly terrifying on a daily basis when I drove it 20 years ago.
sounds like surfmat has been resurrected and has now got an EV...... 🙂
While I'm trying to get my head around what features of an EV actually matter to me, I thought I'd look at home chargers. No point getting an EV if I can't charge at home really.
I'm with OVO energy (Scotland) and they seem to have an OK looking EV tariff. They can also apparently install a charger for me. Makes sense; they deliver the electrons to my house so they might as well take care of diverting them to the car.
So, step 1; choose a charger. What? How? Is there any difference? Well, the options are:
Ohme ePod £914
Indra Smart PRO £914
Ohme Home Pro £964
Hypervolt Home 3 Pro £1,064
All prices include installation but assume it will be a simple one.
So, any reason to pick (or avoid) one over the other?
I went for the Ohme home pro over the Ohme pod as I wanted a tethered cable. I didn’t want to be going into my boot every night getting the cable out and then packing it away again every morning (probably in the rain). Doesn’t look as neat when it’s not in use (with the cable hanging next to it) as an untethered box on the wall but that was not an issue for me. Personal choice really. No idea about the others mentioned.
Thanks @andy4d That was the one I was leaning towards anyway to be honest. We're not exactly house proud and it wont be the scruffiest looking thing on our driveway anyway.
I went ohme home pro too - the ohme chargers seem to have the widest compatibility with the various electric company smart tariffs, so if we ever need to move away from octopus ,in theory it gives the most choice of who else we can use.
I went with the home pro as opposed to the epod because I didnt want to be getting a cable in and out of the boot all the time (like andy4d).
Its been fine - the app is not the most intuitive, but its always worked without fail.
@roverpig , just to flag something that may be relevant. I have an Ohme pro, but it is set up completely 'dumb', I've signed out of it and deleted my account (on instruction from both Ohme and Octopus), charging is completely managed by Octopus and car. So really, as long as charger is reliable, in our case it really doesn't matter.
One positive note for Ohme, it was only giving us 3.5kw after installation, our fitter said to call them direct as loads of his installs had a firmware update requirement. Called Ohme, talked to someone quickly, and within an hour they'd done an over the air update to the unit and we were back up to 7kw.
So, maybe it does matter a wee bit which model/company you go with, and I'd give a thumbs up to Ohme.
Thanks all. Sounds as though Ohme is safe enough.
I was a bit surprised (and bewildered) to be given a choice of four. OK I can see (now) that there is a tethered vs untethered question and maybe some do look prettier than others but they didn't give me a choice when they fitted the smart meter and the sparky didn't ask what fuse box (or whatever they are called these days) we wanted when we had the extension done. They just fitted something that did the job.