Forum menu
the Q4 is a lovely car.
I had one on order with Tusker for close to a year, it kept getting delayed and I eventually cancelled it and went for an i4. The BMW is a much nicer car IMO, and I went with the retractable towball so i can use a bike rack on the back (though more often if it's just me in the car I put the bike in the back with front wheel off)
I can add a +1 for the i4. It's a great car.
It's a "normal car" shape not an SUV style - either a positive or a negative depending on your preference but it does mean that it handles well (low C of G) and have a good range (lower drag). The only real negative is the cramped rear seats due to the Coupe-like styling.
The BMW is a much nicer car IMO
The cheapest used i4 on Autotrader is £39k versus £23k for a Q4. I would love an i4 but I'm just not that rich!
The towing of a polestar is:
Max. trailer weight
USA(lbs)
Canada
(kg)
Without brakes:
1650
750
With brakes:
2000
900
Max. tongue weight
200
90
Not sure if you'd seen or considered that.
I got the topspec model for around your budget..
DrP
perchypanther
Free MemberCompare the GV60’s charging curve where it’ll stay over 200 kw for over 50% of the batteries range. It sometimes makes noises when it’s charging full pelt. A little disconcerting the first time but apparently perfectly normal.
That's really impressive actually, over 100kw until 80-something %
That’s really impressive actually, over 100kw until 80-something %
That graph was what swung my decision to choose the car.
Range becomes less important if you can recharge quickly enough.
Having said that, I realised on Christmas Day after watching Cars with the kids that I probably subconsciously chose it because it looks like Lightning McQueen from the front.
@DrP yes the Polestar is a top candidate. My current caravan has a max weight of about 1250kg because it's old. VAG cars and a few others seem to have 1200kg capacity, Polestar 2 has 1500kg in the UK as does the Ioniq 5/6. 1200kg is doable with the right choice of 'van, but it would be nice to have the extra capacity just in case.
Ioniq 5. Admittedly I’ve only seen 350kw twice, but it’s never below 250kW on the fastest chargers (unless the charger is goosed.) real life figures are about 10-12mins from 20-80%. once you get to 90 though it plummets below 50kW and slowly declines from there. Rarely go above 80%.
On noises: the first time it charged at full bore, I was genuinely concerned about the noises coming from the car. Weird things going on under there. Thought I’d leave it to it and if the car was up in flames when I came back from my pee then so be it. 😂
@stingmered does the Ioniq 5 have the option to pre-heat as you approach the pre-programmer charger? Does it have accurate live charger info?
super (consistently) fast charging is worth more to me that a huge battery.
liking the sound of the Ionic5 there stingmered, maybe a little bigger than I want but nice
Ioniq 5 has exactly the same battery / charging kit as the Ioniq 6 / Kia EV6 and Genesis GV60.
They’re all built on the same e-GMP platform and share the same charging curve.
@molgrips yes and yes. Automatically selects preheat if you’ve selected a High power charger, switxhes it on at whatever distance it thinks it needs to pre condition, so earlier if cold ambient. Accurate info on charger availability too.
I got the fear the first time my car went over 200kw and got out.
Felt like I was sitting on a substation, flashbacks to those terrifying 1980's public information/fear films.
its fear and awe in equal measures, its pretty awesome when you think about it.
its a lotta kettles going full pelt
@stingmered "Ioniq 5. Admittedly I’ve only seen 350kw twice, but it’s never below 250kW on the fastest chargers (unless the charger is goosed.)"
Are you sure about that - I'm pretty certain the Ioniq 5 is rated as max 225kW - backed up by that G60 charging curve above. I guess you must always pre heat (or live in hot country) to get fast speeds all the time....?
It's still v fast-charging car, which I agree is ultimately what's important once the range is >225 miles or so for EVs
I’ve not seen my Ioniq 5 above 220. Very good up to 80 then it drops right off.
Todays bonkers question: I'm planning to leave my MG4 at the Edinburgh Airport Fast Park place where someone parks it for you and also (optionally) recharges it. I was wondering if you can assume that the parking folk know how to start and stop the myriad of EVs that are emerging, or ICE for that matter, with different ways of starting and stopping. Maybe it's my imagination but it seems like EV are in the stage of evolution where a standard way of doing things has not yet emerged so each manufacturer does their own solution, so you can't just jump into a strange car and know how to make it go.
Good point...
The Polestar is a funny one as there's no on/start button!
You just get in, and start driving! Same for "turning it off"... You just kinda walk away..music playing etc ...and it shuts down!
DrP
different ways of starting and stopping.
hold my beer….
I was wondering if you can assume that the parking folk know how to start and stop the myriad of EVs that are emerging, or ICE for that matter, with different ways of starting and stopping
Of course they do. They have Uber pick ups waiting.
Of course they do. They have Uber pick ups waiting.
STOP IT !!!!
Put an Air Tag in it so you can see how far it goes...
Maybe it’s my imagination but it seems like EV are in the stage of evolution where a standard way of doing things has not yet emerged
The standard is foot on brake, press button, select drive - has been this way since hybrids emerged. Polestar might be showing off, I dunno, but they're not exactly rare cars.
It's the same process, jsut without pushing a button..
I.e get in..foot on brake..select D/R.. vroom vroom...
DrP
Put an Air Tag in it so you can see how
far it goesfast it can thrash out a lap of the industrial estate …
Fixed that for you.. Obviously only coincidence, but the only time a turbo blew up on me was just after I got the car back from airport park-it-for-you service. EVs are probably more robust though so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
MG4 doesn’t have a start button either. Just get in and go.
The Polestar is a funny one as there’s no on/start button!
You just get in, and start driving! Same for “turning it off”… You just kinda walk away..music playing etc …and it shuts down!
This is fairly common now, some cars have it as stock, for some it's a cost option. (Parts of it, or all of it).
Quick update RE the polestarrrr...
It felt a bit odd having the hatch window a factory tint, but the rear glass not being tinted.
Took it to a local place who matched the factory volvo tint perfectll! Think it's about 20%.
As it's cold the film is still drying out, but look ace already! well worth doing, adn really doesn't make the interior any darker.
DrP(imp)
Get that crap off the roof.
Lol..how else am i meant to ferry bikes about!
DrP
A quick question for you EV owners, if I may:
Has anybody purchased a new EV outright with their own (post tax) money?
This is the way I typically buy (ICE) cars i.e. get a new one (with a nice big discount off the list price) every seven years or so (which equates to around 150k miles for us). But that doesn't look like a sensible option with EVs at the moment.
I bought mine with my own dosh..but wasn't new..
Was 3 years old, and was about 39% of the new price. That's some depreciation to swallow TBH if you're buying new!
DrP
But that doesn’t look like a sensible option with EVs at the moment.
I can't see how it's a sensible option for any car. A 2 year old car is basically indistinguishable from a new one and yet they cost what, 50% more at best?
If I had £25k in cash my choices would be a new diesel or a really good 2 year old EV, and there be absolutely no contest. And that's before you factor in the what, £3,000-£5,000 extra you'd have to spend on fuelling the diesel.
Yeah I really wouldnt buy outright a new EV, it currently looks like a sure fire way to lose a stack load of cash.
If you want to buy outright, get one a couple of years old. Similar to DrP I just bought one outright, but it was 2 years old and 44% of the original list price, my intention is to keep for at least 5years , maybe longer.
I guess it may continue to depreciate like a stone, but time will tell.....
"I bought mine with my own dosh..but wasn’t new..Was 3 years old, and was about 39% of the new price."
The car market is weird. When I bought my car back in 2018 I looked at 2 year old base model petrol Octavia estates. £16k at a main dealer. Trade in was WBAC value. No movement on price.
Paid £2250k more and got a new Superb Estate with a few option and 2 free services via Drivethe Deal.
Has anybody purchased a new EV outright with their own (post tax) money?
I bought our I3 when it was 14m old. That was 5 years ago and I'm going to do it again soon. So not new, but just over a year old.
Yes, the downside with only buying cars every seven years is that the market changes completely and you have to learn the new system every time.
Similar to @irc when I bought the current car (six years ago) I could get a £24k car for £20k paying cash and the "nearly new" models were not much cheaper, so it made sense to pay a little more for the longer warranty.
But it sounds as though these days it makes no sense to buy a new car (of any sort) outright. That means that the majority of new car "sales" are actually short term (by my standards) lease deals or company cars, meaning a glut of "nearly new" cars on the market. The tax incentives mean that a lot of those have been EVs, which I guess explains the deals currently available on 1-2 year old EVs.
You can't really say that you've saved x% compared with the new price though if nobody ever paid that for a new car.
you can’t really say that you’ve saved x% compared with the new price though if nobody ever paid that for a new car.
I'm sure a minority of people did pay the list price, but the majority will have been leases on a company salary sacrifice scheme.
I guess you can only compare the second hand purchase price to the datum point you know (ie the list price, or if you knew what they were really selling them for brand new) , but even the second hand purchase price is a pointless metric until you sell it, as its only then you know the true costs of the car over the period you owned it , and you wont know that for another 5-7-8 years.
Its all guesswork/gut feel/experience based and thats why a lot of people like to lease/pcp/pch a new car as they know up front the costs and what they get for those costs, whereas any secondhand outright purchaser is taking a risk that the costs are within their appetite. I've typically always bought used and held for a number of years and my costs have always been (much) less than a lease/pcp/pch of a new or secondhand identical car would have been, but theres no guarantee that will always be the case.
Put an Air Tag in it so you can see how far it goes…
Or surely just use the app…? On mine you can track exactly where the car is, speed, duration etc. I assume this is standard on all (newish) EV’s given the integration with apps and modern tech. Mine also has a valet mode which whilst not limiting the driving, locks down the infotainment system so nobody can steal your data. Far more important a consideration in my mind. It also has a live log of all driving activity since the valet mode was activated inc max speed!
I have relatives that by an almost base spec. new car every 2-3 years, madness given how much they lose in depreciation and that they could get a much nicer spec. for the same money (or likely much cheaper) by buying second-hand but for some reason they just don't want to consider buying secondhand.
Its all guesswork/gut feel/experience based and thats why a lot of people like to lease/pcp/pch a new car as they know up front the costs and what they get for those costs, whereas any secondhand outright purchaser is taking a risk that the costs are within their appetite.
I guess that applies to cash buyers, but it's a bit different if you borrow money. For a start it's quite hard to borrow more than £25k which puts a lot of new cars out. And you end up paying the whole lot back in 5 years which makes the payments pretty big. So if you want a new car, and you haven't got a large pile of cash, PCP or lease is pretty much it.
The problem with EVs is that if you want one of the modern ones they are all fairly new and consequently all quite expensive. If you want, say, a diesel estate you can spent any amount you want between £70k and about £1,000.
er... it's kinda whistly, TBH... and deffo knocks the efficiency (as expected)..
i'm forever lugging bikes back and forth along the south coast, and I litereally can't be ar$ed with always sticking the rack on/off/on all the time!
I'll remove it for planned longer journeys (like to the Netherlands), but in the UK it pretty much stays on all the time.
Still goes like a rocket even with a bike on the roof!!
<br />DrP
I guess that applies to cash buyers, but it’s a bit different if you borrow money.
True, but when we say buy outright I kind of took that to mean cash buyers who don't need a loan, otherwise it's not really buying outright.
all bets are off if you need to borrow the money to buy outright.
There's no right or wrong answer for any of this, just what is best for you and your circumstances
molgrips
If I had £25k in cash my choices would be a new diesel or a really good 2 year old EV, and there be absolutely no contest. And that’s before you factor in the what, £3,000-£5,000 extra you’d have to spend on fuelling the diesel.
I know you're a bit of an EV evangelist but this doesn't make sense to me, unless I've misunderstood your reasoning?
Why would your choices be a new diesel or a 2 year old EV? Why not a 2 year old diesel as a choice?
My 2 year old diesel only cost me £12k, down from ~£25k new.
And fuel-wise - where does the £3-5k fuel cost come from?
£3k of fuel would get me almost 26500 miles. £5k would get me 44000 miles.
Current mileage of ~15000 miles/year costs me about £1700 (assuming £1.50/litre which is more than I've been paying for at least 6 months now).
Warranty would be my reason to buy a new car, and especially a diesel - 2 year old diesel isn't so far away from big bills land. Also, locally the depreciation on 2nd hand cars is very low compared to the UK so you're not going to be saving. The UK is a bit weird for this as there's a lot of second hand lease cars that are very suitable to go to central/eastern europe pushing prices down across the market
wbo
Warranty would be my reason to buy a new car, and especially a diesel – 2 year old diesel isn’t so far away from big bills land.
Is it?
I must just be lucky.
3 diesel cars in the last 18 years. Biggest bill was £550 for a replacement air-con compressor.
Petrol Citroen was a different story. 🤐😬
That's jinxed it!!
2 year old diesel isn’t so far away from big bills land
Don't be daft.
Why would your choices be a new diesel or a 2 year old EV?
That was just an illustration of what deprecation can do for the used car buyer. We don't know roverpig's budget, and yes £25k is a bit cheap for a new diesel full sized car but if he's good at getting discounts he might be talking about that kind of dosh. And it gets you a very nice two or even one year old EV - I just saw a 2021 Ioniq 5 on Autotrader from a dealer with 11k miles for about that. Of course, if saving money is your aim then you can spend far less, of course - with ICEs you can spend any amount you want.
Regarding fuel, I was simply pointing out that your £25k purchase fund isn't the end of the story as you'd likely be spending a lot more on fuel if you bought a diesel.
Anyone near Southampton want a very cheap ev?
I am going to sell my Nissan leaf but thought i would give stw the first chance.
It is a 2011 mk1 so I'd fairly knackered. It had a real world range of only 30-40 miles. The cheapest i can see on autotrader.co.uk is £2,000 for one with a completely dead battery and no warranty so i reckon something around that price. Pm me if you are interested.
er… it’s kinda whistly, TBH
I thought that might be the case. I’ll stick (sorry) with the Seasucker and only have it on when I need it in that case. I only ever have one bike up there anyway.
OK sucker....
DrP 😉
Just looked at my original review video and discovered I paid £5K for it, not £3K as I thought. I also looks at a load of other adverts so the price for mine has suddenly jumped to about £3,000 🙂
Here is the review when I got iit. I t is much the same but a bit dirtier with a slightly dented passenger side rear wing.
Paid £2250k more and got a new Superb Estate with a few option and 2 free services via Drivethe Deal.
@irc you got done.
Regarding fuel, I was simply pointing out that your £25k purchase fund isn’t the end of the story as you’d likely be spending a lot more on fuel if you bought a diesel.
Pop quiz. How much diesel does 14k buy if you buy the 11k 2 year old diesel.
How many 'bars' does the battery have now WCA? Out of curiousity
How much diesel does 14k buy if you buy the 11k 2 year old diesel.
That wasn't meant to be a post about how great EVs are. It was about car depreciation, the folly of buying a new car in general regardless of drivetrain.
I'm trying to point out that buying new isn't worth it.
wbo - 24 seconds into the video you get to see the gauge at pretty much max. 2 red bars and 5 white.
2 year old diesel isn’t so far away from big bills land.
4 or 5 years?
Unless you're doing mega miles, or driving to the corner shop three times a day.
[i]2 year old diesel isn’t so far away from big bills land.
4 or 5 years?
Unless you’re doing mega miles, or driving to the corner shop three times a day.[/i]
Are people still trying to use comparative costs of ownership as arguments for or against electric cars?
I thought it had been pretty much proven that for the 1st 3 years of ownership and electric car is generally ore expensive than a diesel or petrol. The argument for electric is only environmental and experiential. The cost savings come in at around 7 years of ownership from new when the lower running costs start to take effect.
The argument for electric is only environmental and experiential
The experiental argument is the most overlooked one I think.
Why wouldn’t anyone want a practical everyday car that accelerates like a Porsche, is quieter than a Rolls Royce, has a smoother transmission than any Mercedes but is cheaper to fuel than a Mini, requires minimal servicing and has zero road tax and defrosts itself on cold mornings?
Costs and the environment be damned.
I’m absolutely sold on the EV experience and believe the few compromises that brings are vastly outweighed by the benefits.
Watch my Nissan Leaf before saying it accelerates like a Porsche or is quieter than a Rolls 🙂
That accelerates like treacle and is as noisy as a car.
The Leaf is just a step in the evolution though.
It’s the original iphone compared to my iPhone 12.
Seems a bit shit in retrospect but was a game changer at the time.
Respect the Leaf.
Absolutely right. I am sure it is an sure firte classic and as such a great time to invest in such an appreciating asset.
You can collect mine from Southampton
I don’t have the range to get to Southampton.
😉
I’ll just have to respect it from afar.
FLy down and then drive back in 30 mile stages....
I’d only need 14 stops. A week should cover it.
On a serious note. I could theoretically do the 414 mile journey to Southampton in my own car with a single 20 minute-ish charging stop. Not that much of a compromise is it ?
I have a base model Nissan Leaf from 2019, possibly the cheapest EV on the market now and certainly the crappiest tech since the design is over a decade old. It's quieter and smoother than my high end luxury diesel from 2014, almost as quick, and much more responsive.
I thought it had been pretty much proven that for the 1st 3 years of ownership and electric car is generally ore expensive than a diesel or petrol.
Perhaps from new, yes, but even finding something to compare like for like is hard. But if you have a big enough chunk of cash, or are borrowing, you generally have the choice of expensive to run or cheap to run, you just adjust the car you buy to suit. As I said earlier, for £25k, you can either buy a nice diesel that costs 15p a mile to drive or you can buy an equally nice EV that costs 2p a mile to run.
Why wouldn’t anyone want a practical everyday car that accelerates like a Porsche, is quieter than a Rolls Royce, has a smoother transmission than any Mercedes but is cheaper to fuel than a Mini, requires minimal servicing and has zero road tax and defrosts itself on cold mornings?
spot and and sums it up for me.
Are people still trying to use comparative costs of ownership as arguments for or against electric cars?
Errrrr, no. Just pointing out that at 2 years you're still several years away from big bills with a diesel, or petrol.
And i have detailed (very detailed) breakdowns of cost of ownership.
Just been told to put an order in for my next company car. Merc EQB350 AMG.
The car itself (size/shape) goes against everything i like about cars tbh but i havent got a choice in the matter. Huge saving on tax for me over the 3 year period over my current Merc C300dEV AMG.
Not sure of the range i am going to get out of it but the salesman said the quoted 300+ is more like 250 but tbh i would come across town in an EV anyhow and thats 3 miles each way so i wont be too bothered. We have another car for longer journies where we cant build in charging etc.
Time to start embracing EV's properly i suppose. Thankfully i already have a home charger fitted (When we got the grants for fitting)
I had a go in an EQB. It was a lot smaller than I thought it was going to be.
Beautifully finished interior. Lovely car.
Why wouldn’t anyone want a practical everyday car that accelerates like a Porsche, is quieter than a Rolls Royce, has a smoother transmission than any Mercedes but is cheaper to fuel than a Mini, requires minimal servicing and has zero road tax and defrosts itself on cold mornings?
I'd want one, but for large vehicles, EV just isn't there for a reasonable price yet. Our current car is a zafira tourer - 7 seater but we could get away with a 5 seater if it had the same size boot. Which is ~800l in 5 seat mode. it also cost £4500 at 5 years old (mid-pandemic). There's nothing on the market. The berlingo\spacetourer\nv200 (and siblings) EVs have a useless range, the cheapest model x is £30k (I think other options start around the same price) - the £25k buys you more diesel than you can reasonably use
Promising to hear.
the salesman said the quoted 300+ is more like 250
The thing is with range is that WTLP includes a mix of low and high speed, and much of it is still at low speed. This does give a representative view of the average consumption, but it's a bit useless for EVs because you only care about maximum range when you're on a long trip where your speed is going to be higher than most of the WTLP test cycle.
We should be given the figures for 70mph driving, they would be are more useful as one tends not to drive 300 miles in urban driving in a day - unless you don't have home charging.
How do people find Octopus' EV tariff?
The 7.5p/kwh is a great headline, but does the sneaky +2p on every other kwh not eat into that?
How do people find Octopus’ EV tariff?
It's really good, my average per kwh price for last month was 13.5p.
It doesn't take much of your usual electric to be shifted into the cheap 11.30pm to 5.30am windowto make a significant reduction in your overall per kwh price.
Just setting the dishwasher and washing machine on a delay timer so they only run in the cheap window makes a big difference.
The 7.5p/kwh is a great headline, but does the sneaky +2p on every other kwh not eat into that?
The £10/15/20/25 day/week/month that you don't spend on petrol or diesel more than covers the extra 2p KW used outside the cheap hours. 🤔
EVs lose range in very cold weather. Known. But if you’re planning a trip to Norway this year’s Norwegian EV contest might be interesting. https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-hiphi-ev-range-crown/#intcid=_wired-verso-hp-trending_8e45e708-004b-4abc-8cfa-bad64b1b824d_popular4-1