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A fairly basic EV can probably develop more torque and out accelerate an M5 in city driving, 0-50kph (where you get lots of minor bumps and lots of claims.)
Agreed. My basic, crappy LEAF (148bhp) can out accelerate to 30mph my pal's 270+BHP Astra VXR.
I can see the yoooothzzz causing a lot of crashes in fast, heavy EVs in teh future to come!
DrP
DrP racing cars 😉. Hope it was on private land!?
Car drivers of future will only be able to afford autonomous taxi fares. That might limit the damage? Unless their hacking skills are up to scratch?
They’re not that violent unless you want to be. The torque application is pretty sensible.
It's sensible in some cars, others, not so sensible.
The important thing is that it's *different*.
DrP racing cars 😉. Hope it was on private land!?
Do-nuts in the Toys'R'us car park, followed by a rift race for pink slips.... 😉
Nah - just putting our foot (feet) down on a traffic light on a straight stretch of road (basically, a moderately aggressive 0-30mph acceleration test).
DrP
Really? A 'basic ev' out accelerating an M5? Come on!
I know that this is the first quick-ish car a lot of people will have owned, and even basic ones have good shove from nothing up to about 20 mph and good pedal response, but let's not get carried away!
Even the i4 m50 (which is an actually fast EV) can't beat the M3 off the line, let alone an M5.
What I have found myself is that due to the lack of noise, wheelspin and attention being drawn, it is a lot more tempting the deploy the full berries for launches into small gaps.
2023 BMW i4 EV: 3.7 seconds
2022 M3 xDrive Sedan/M3 Competition Sedan/M3 Sedan: 0-60 mph in 3.4 seconds/3.8 seconds/4.1 seconds
Taken from BMW themselves!
Blimey... the i4 is fast isn't it!
DrP
Similar to a Honda CBR650R motorbike then 😯
DrP
Taken from BMW themselves!
Blimey… the i4 is fast isn’t it!
DrP
That figure you have bolded is comparing AWD i4 to RWD M3, but yes, the i4 M50 is properly quick.
Since we were talking originally about the M5, I think it's worth reiterating, the M5 is half a second faster to 60 than the i4. Even looking at 0-30mph which is the EVs domain, it's just madness comparing something like an eNiro to the M5, it takes less than half the time to get to that speed.
Really? A ‘basic ev’ out accelerating an M5? Come on!
Acceleration is the wrong metric. A basic EV has a drivetrain that is quieter, smoother and more responsive than almost any luxury ICE car except billionaire spec Rolls Royce or Bentleys.
That’s why I’ll never go back to ICE. A bit of poke is just a rarely used added bonus.
I think on the acceleration front it’s the zero to 40 mph type sections where the EVs outweigh ICE cars, as it’s all just so instant.
My low powered 100kw Corsa e has a similar 0-60mph time as most 150kw EVs. Weight/mass probably evens it out compared to cars with larger batteries and more powerful motors?
I think the car makers are slowing down most mid range cars at the moment.
I think on the acceleration front it’s the zero to 40 mph type sections where the EVs outweigh ICE cars, as it’s all just so instant.
Not even as far as 40MPH TBH.
0-50kph. Instant response, no need to press buttons, get into launch mode. Rev the engine up, hold it against the brakes. Wait for the lights to change. THEN you can go.
Just stamp on the pedal. And you've got all of it already.
@Dickyboy. Yeah, that's always my thought on a car's 0-60, the sort of acceleration on a 15yr old commuter motorbike
That figure you have bolded is comparing AWD i4 to RWD M3, but yes, the i4 M50 is properly quick.
Since we were talking originally about the M5, I think it’s worth reiterating, the M5 is half a second faster to 60 than the i4. Even looking at 0-30mph which is the EVs domain, it’s just madness comparing something like an eNiro to the M5, it takes less than half the time to get to that speed.
BTW - I wasn't trying to argue or disprove - i've no idea about the different models/AWD etc etc... I jsut wanted to have a peek at then was like "wow... those cars (EV and ICE) are ruddy fast!
DrP
cripes
I'm not really a car person, so my understanding of 'fast car' starts and ends with the 1988 Top Trumps 'Supercars' set.
But it's pretty mad to think that a middle class IT salary-sacrifice jobby these days pisses all over a Ferrari F40 from 0-60 😲
It's the instant acceleration at low speeds that is the differentiator. My Leaf is slower than my ICE to 60, but in the ICE you have to select the right gear then wait for the power to build - which it does, all the way to 150mph. But that takes time, it's quite a different experience than the sudden torque explosion that you get in the Leaf. You can't get that in the ICE even though it is quicker to 60.
But it’s pretty mad to think that a middle class IT salary-sacrifice jobby these days pisses all over a Ferrari F40 from 0-60
Yup..and you don't even need to be 'good' at driving (well timed shifts, proper revs at takeoff etc), you just need a right foot that can plantarflex!
DrP
The thing with EV acceleration is - it's instantly "switches on" max acceleration.
With an ICE, even a fast one like an M3 or M5 there's some down shifting, boost building, building revs into into the power band etc unless you're using launch control or sitting at 4-5K RPM.
So - when an ICE and EV are compared over a "race" such as a 0-60 etc, a broadly similar ICE (lets say an M3 vs an i4) appears quite quick. But in the real world, where a "quick squirt" of acceleration is what's actually needed the EV leaves the ICE for dead as by the time the ICE has got it's ducks in a row and built up torque the EV has already gone.
Back in the real world....
I've got a RWD i4 - on paper it's 5.7 sec 0-60. I've recently had a 530D and 530e as loan cars for a week each - both also mid 5 secs to 60. They both felt dog slow compared to the i4. Sure they went quite quick once they'd built up a head of steam so to speak but there was a definite waiting period on both.
The upshot of all this is that there's a bit of a "are you sure you want to....?" period in an ICE whereas with the EV by the time you've had a chance to think you're already gone.
Here's an example - a carwow drag race video between an i4 M50 and an M3 competition. From a standing start they're really quite similar up to 100MPH ish, but check out the rolling races which are more like real-world usage. The i4 leaves the M3 for dead in both of those. On the 30MPH rolling race the M3 doesn't catch the M3 until they hit 130MPH so in any vaguely legal or feasible real world situation the i4 is significantly quicker.
it’s pretty mad to think that a middle class IT salary-sacrifice jobby these days pisses all over a Ferrari F40 from 0-60
Perhaps but let's be honest, we all know where we'd rather be sitting.
In the Tesla. I know I don’t fit in an F40 😀
In the Tesla. I know I don’t fit in an F40 😀
Not sure what has more bits falling off it though?
Most of the Teslas i've driven seem to conform to 1980's build/fit and finish standards...
Though at least it's not like sitting in a carbon fibre food processor.
There are other factors. There's a traffic light controlled roundabout near me where you wait at the last set of lights then you go straight into the M4 sliproad which is two lane. It's great to accelerate hard there in the Merc and power up the sliproad, however you can't really do this in the Leaf as it gets pretty interesting putting that much torque down when steering lock is applied. And my Merc isn't even a particularly sporty one.
Video shows what a really quick electric car does compared to a really quick petrol car (M5 comp). Mind blowingly quick
Steering the thread back to more mainstream cars after the recent high performance posts....
I have recently put down a deposit on a 2021 Hyundai Kona to complement the Renault Zoe that we have been running for several years. The Zoe is a great car, really happy with it, however it is not able to accept roof rack or tow bar both of which the Kona can. That and 50% more range should be good.
I sold my small ICE campervan recently so this has pretty much completed the energy journey that I have been on since 2015 when solar panels were fitted to the house, followed by first EV, heat pump and battery. The only fossil fuel burning items now in the house are a couple of small camping stoves, very small in the grand scheme of life.
I am really looking forward to having a more capable EV for weekend trips as driving ICE with manual transmission has really felt old fashioned in recent years.
I've kept my Skoda Roomster on standby for roof rack, towing and tip runs. The Corsa e will now do the majority of the miles for big trips.
In a few years I should be able to replace the Roomster with an ev with a roof rack, towbar and ev 2 home capability in some form that will help pay for itself whilst parked at home.
dipping my toe shortly.....into public charging points....
Have had my EV (i4) since August and love it, all charging has been at home on Intelligent Octopus which works well.
Heading for a week in Northumberland in a couple of weeks, staying near Lucker, and will need to pick up a few charges whilst there. Its around 125 miles from home to the cottage we are staying in, so will arrive with 65% plus, and will be out and about every day. ZapMap shows loads of chargers, I don't have any charging subscriptions (apart from ChargePlaceScotland) so hoping that my phone and credit card get me access where required...
I have recently put down a deposit on a 2021 Hyundai Kona
can you give some feedback in a few weeks, especially regarding boot space for 2 bikes. it a possibility for me, but I'd sort of dismissed it as too small in the boot.
BAnana, I can fit 2 road bikes or HT MTBs into the Zoe with front wheels removed. This is only possible as I am short!
For normal size humans of FS bikes this may not work.
Kona boot is similar to Zoe, if my experience is any different I will post an update.
@IainC IMO easiest option (if you have the cable) is to charge at the cottage each night and reimburse the owner. Otherwise I'd download their app and set up an account with Tesla and use the superchargers near Lucker on the A1 (that's the best guarantee of always being able to get a charge).
@littledave ok cheers. I'm hoping to buy something similar size boot to ID3 I currently have
B.A.NanaFree Member
@IainC IMO easiest option (if you have the cable) is to charge at the cottage each night and reimburse the owner.
They offer that to guests, but at a flat cost of £20 a day, and I'm presuming it's a granny charger rather than a 7kwh one, so pretty poor value I reckon.
I saw on Zapmap that the nearby services have a bank of Tesla chargers, can they be used just with a credit card to access and pay or do I need the Tesla App ?
We measured up a kona when we test drove it and the boot size is remarkably similar to our existing fiesta. Niro is the same powertrain but the bike carrying ability looked significantly better.
@IainC you can only use the app, however, once you've set up an account I assume it's just plug and charge (there's no buttons to press etc), certainly was with the tesla I used to have. I haven't used them with my ID3, but someone on here will know the non Tesla process or you can google it. they're 250kw chargers so should be pretty fast with your i4
dipping my toe shortly…..into public charging points…
All the ones I've been to have just been a case of using your debit card on the charger. It's worth researching where the nearest DC rapid chargers are (100kW+) as it's usually worth driving to one if the nearest fast charger isn't in walking distance of where you're staying. If there's CCS compatible Tesla superchargers nearby as then it's worth registering an account and d/ling their app.
thanks, have setup a Tesla account and registered payment method so that should see me good, as there is a bank of 6 of them nearby on A1 as per @ B.A.Nana
@iainc You do know that there are only 15 Tesla sites in the UK that can be used by non-Teslas? Your Northumberland one is one of those but they are few and far between.
I use the Shell recharge app a lot as that gives access to Ionity, MFG, Fastned and Osprey ultra rapid chargers as well as many others.
perchypantherFree Member
@iainc You do know that there are only 15 Tesla sites in the UK that can be used by non-Teslas? Your Northumberland one is one of those but they are few and far between.
yes, I saw that when i googled it. Registering for non Tesla charging on the Tesla App took 2 mins and no charge, so it will be handy for this trip if nothing else !
@iainc the map in the app is live and tells you how many chargers are available, so you can go knowing there's a charger available.
thanks, having a play with it to get up to speed !
@iainc - you should have got a BMW charging card with your car, which comes with 1 yrs fee-paid access to discounted IONITY and BP Pulse plus quite a lot more. That's a good starting point for "most" charging duties and then of course build on it with things like the Tesla access, pod point, connected kerb and so on.
^^^^^ mine came through Tusker and I didn't get one, however I have registered for it this afternoon
First Supercharger use today. Handily the Aviemore one is available to all. Tucked away behind the Macdonald hotel but three free bays. App easy to use. Bit disappointed only to get 69kW speed but a coffee and pee was enough time to add 45% to battery. Hoping I have enough to get back there on Sunday, pretty sparse options up in Torridon. Torridon hotel charging 85p/kWh! Definitely enough to get back to Inverness but it’s not exactly blessed with options either. Not used to these prices, never had to public charge since the wall box went in.
@iainc may be worth looking at Electroverse too? You can link it to your Octopus account so it just loads the cost onto your bill. But if you can get the discounted rates through BMW it's well worth it. I got a Plugsurfing card with my Polestar which is 30p on Ionity.
^^^ thanks, will have a look. Public charging will be a rare occurrence so just need to make sure I can access something reasonably fast and moderately priced.
I’m now used to IO home charging at 7.5p/kWh so a bit spoiled 😁
You do know that there are only 15 Tesla sites in the UK that can be used by non-Teslas?
23 at the last count.
We're just in process of going electric with a low milage second hand mg5. We've moved onto octopus and got an intelligent tariff compatible charger being installed.
App wise what are the essentials, over last few pages I've seen
Zapmap for general chargers, route plotting
Electroverse to add charging costs to house bill
Tesla app for the all vehicle open sites
Shell for access to certain chargers (are these not usable otherwise?)
Thanks
Fun fact on non Tesla supercharging.
There are only a few sites in UK currently as stated above but the map for other European countries shows many more.
Well worth knowing if planning an EV trip to the Alps or similar as I intend next year.
Having yolo'd into being a fully electric car'd household a couple of months ago the only apps I use are the home charger one and zapmap.
I downloaded a few others just in case but have never needed to use them.
I strongly suspect that the venn overlap between relatively early adopters of EVs and people who chronically overthink things is almost a perfect circle and this thread is very much an example of things being made to sound more complicated than they are!
^^ I’m in a similar place, as above all my charging to date has been on IO at home. Someone recommended zapmap, which handily shows charge locations, but so does the satnav in the car. I have Chargeplace Scotland as I regularly pass through areas with free charging, but have never used it. The Tesla one I got yesterday, as earlier, for an upcoming trip, with I think I will use. My BMW charge card accesses Ionity, which may be handy on longer trips,
Shell for access to certain chargers (are these not usable otherwise?)
I think the shell card has much the same main networks as the electroverse card, so possibly no point in having both. Also all the chargers I use with my shell recharge card can be used with a credit/debit card. Having said that, I tend to always use the same ones MFG, osprey, ionity, geniepoint. There may be others on the Shell recharge network that require an app (it's worth linking your card to the app, I recently couldn't get an osprey charger to read my shell card but could start the charge from the shell app)
My only advice is it pays to plan ahead if you're going somewhere new. Have a plan A/B/C unless Plan A is foolproof. So, iainc above has sorted out his holiday charging as part of the holiday planning.
I think it's still the case that the most reliable chargers to aim for are Tesla, instavolt, osprey, ionity, MFG, I presume gridserve have swapped out most old chargers now. Geniepoint have a bad rep but are starting to swap to new hardware, I think ones in supermarkets are prioritised.
Instavolt aren't on electroverse card or shell card, but are all credit/debit card.
Chargeplacescotland if you're in or visiting Scotland
I never used an app until a few weeks back when we ended up at a Dragon charger which was app only. But the main networks, on motorways and such, all work with a debit card.
I prefer A Better Route Planner sometimes but it is a bit of overload. Better for route planning but less handy than Zap Map for just checking where chargers are. Zap Map also has an Android Auto app.
I strongly suspect that the venn overlap between relatively early adopters of EVs and people who chronically overthink things is almost a perfect circle
Most true thing I've read in a long time 😅
DrP
I go into the office twice week on a Tue and Wed. Free charging is available at the office.
I’m trying to decide, on the Wednesday should take everything I can get and charge to 100%, to satisfy my tight arse ness. Or charge to 80% to satisfy my need for mechanical sympathy.
In modern cars 100% does not seem to be an issue. At least, as long as you don't leave it at 100% for weeks.
Anyone insured by John Lewis? I am and my policy runs out next month (Nov). I only have an old Leaf and so far it’s been around £200 to insure fully comp every year for the last 7 years….nothing from JL yet.
What is the name of the best Apple App for Tesla charging (for a non-Tesla) - there seem to be a few?
On the search, it’s the one on the top right, Tesla Lifestyle :
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cheers
In modern cars 100% does not seem to be an issue.
It is. Just modern strategies to charge, which is what does most of the damage, are a lot better. (cooling, charge rate reduction etc). The chemistry is better too, but still not *perfect*.
So it'll take much longer to shag the battery.
TBH, anything that heats the battery significantly, rapidly or unevenly will be doing damage.
Just modern strategies to charge, which is what does most of the damage, are a lot better.
Yeah that's what I meant
Also LFP cells in my car, the electrolyte breaks down slightly at a voltage that corresponds to 100% so heat aside, you're not meant to leave it at 100% for days or weeks.
WTF, those bloody "Saudi bots" are working for the Guardian now?
Most modern cars you can't charge to 100% (but you know that anyway. ) Toyota are so keen on battery preservation they've made the car pretty difficuly to use for long journeys - big buffers eat up a lot of the capacity, and limits on how many fast charges per day.
But if it drops to 90% after 5 years who cares? Really
Worst Speed sequel yet
I liked the bit when he says he has mobility issues so didn't jump out at 30mph....
...oh, and where the police spokesman says they brought it to a controlled stop with no damage to either vehicle, after the headline wording around crashing into the back of a police car...
The fact it's electric has nothing to do with it, obviously.
^^^^ hmmm, wonder if it had been an ICE it could have been put into neutral - sounds very odd that all systems locked, such that the gear selector and the brakes were disabled, yet he was still able to open window to speak to police, use phone (though I guess maybe not hands free given emergency situation).
‘The brakes would not work’
This is not believable.
Fun fact on non Tesla supercharging.
There are only a few sites in UK currently as stated above but the map for other European countries shows many more.
Well worth knowing if planning an EV trip to the Alps or similar as I intend next year
Actually, I found that the journey through France is possible without having to leave the motorway network to use Tesla and that provision, especially from TotalEnergies, Ionity and Fastned, is adequate to complete the journey. Most are actually faster than Tesla and many are undercover
prettygreenparrot
Full Member‘The brakes would not work’
This is not believable.
Agree, I'm highly sceptical of his account but just for arguments sake, let's assume he's telling the truth. He says he heard a grinding noise when braking... would be a hell of a coincidence for a mechanical braking fault to occur as well as the other electrical faults.
Best guess I can come up with is a fault on the electronics bus passing spurious sensor readings to the ECUs, e.g. if the ABS ECU gets a wheel-speed readout of zero it will think the wheels are skidding and apply ABS, and that can make quite a horrible noise. Plausible it could be described as 'grinding' ? 🤷♂️
Having a had a car with corroded ABS rings that confused the sensor, that sounds like a reasonable theory. The brakes should still work though even them.
OTOH, I just Googled "MG brake by wire" and this was the first hit: https://www.mgevs.com/threads/brakes-failed.3473/
Aside from the general "it sounds like made up BS" aspect...
Brakes - I'm fairly sure that the car will have a hydraulic circuit as well as a "brake by wire" circuit, so a firm push on the brake pedal would physically engage the brakes. (edit - a quick look at the MG5 manual online and it mentions dual hydraulic circuits.
Constant speed. The only way the car would drive at a constant speed is for some form of speed control to be active - e.g. cruise control - if it was a fixed power to the motor it would either accelerate or decelerate. It sounds rather unlikely that just about every other system on the car should fail except speed control which is working.
Aside from the general “it sounds like made up BS” aspect…
As I read that account, I was picturing Rab C Nesbit at the wheel, on his way home from the pub after a night on the special brew. “Luckily driving round the roundabout slowed the car down to 15 mph”
Yeah, course it did 🥸
‘The brakes would not work’
This is not believable.
The brakes might've applied, but they perhaps didn't slow the car down. There is precedent for this - there was a spate of this happening with Lexus hybrids - the throttle basically electronically jammed open and the brakes were not enough to kill the speed. A family was killed this way. It was considered surprising that touching the brakes didn't kill the throttle automatically, as it does in other cars.
wonder if it had been an ICE it could have been put into neutral
Assuming the control units are working, because this will be an electronically activated thing. Most cars will accept a command to go into neutral when driving along if the controls are responding, but if they aren't then, well, they aren't.
Sounds like part of the software crashed.
In essence though, any modern car is going to go wrong / not work / be dangerous if the electrics go completely wrong. Not limited to electric cars.
I had a Renault Clio that had a throttle that intermittently stuck down and you had to hit it repeatedly then it unstuck again. Garage said nothing wrong with it! Amazing I never had a crash, ended up using for a trade-in offer for a newer car…
The grinding brakes and his statement that he believed the car would stop without the accelerator seems to be just one-pedal driving and then using brakes which were oxidised. If he backed off the brake and then was scared to touch it again, then panicked and pressed either the cruise or cruise reset buttons on the wheel, this could explain maintaining speed/not stopping and how the police were able to stop it with no damage to either vehicle.
It did say on the article that they ‘did something that made it stop…’ - still managed to get onto national news as I was driving to play squash this evening…!
Meanwhile Kia and Hyundai recall 3 million plus cars and advise owners to keep them outdoors due to risk of catching fire. Due to brake fluid leaks. Also another recent one due to transmission fluid leaks. Funnily enough isn’t on the BBC news front page.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/hyundai-kia-vehicle-recall-cars-fire-b2420689.html#
I saw hydrogen refuel stations when I was in Japan recently. One of them in a fairly small provincial town on the east coast. Weirdly, the only cars at each one were the Toyotas, and even those looked to be liveried promotional vehicles. Build it and they will come, and all that…
Is tesla car really that good? I keep seeing news about problem on that brand
Mine has been great as an EV, and has never had anything go wrong with it. I’ve driven all over the country, in a mobile worker role regularly staying in hotels and never had a concern over range or charging. 20,000 miles has cost about £400 in electricity. My previous ICE would have cost £5000 in petrol for the same distance…
But the ergonomics (lights, wipers, aircon are fiddly, and they keep moving the bloody button for the radio) are a bit shit, and it’s not very well made. Certainly not as well made as anything in the same price bracket from a legacy manufacturer.
When reading anything, you have to remember every single thing to do with Tesla is hyped up, problems and benefits alike.