More bullshitting from Tesla.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/what-does-teslas-battery-day-mean-for-e-mtbs.html
According to Drew Baglino, the senior vice president of powertrain and engineering at Tesla, the innovations boost the energy by five times, the power by six times, and the range of a car using these batteries by 16 percent. It's worth saying we don't know what the baseline for these numbers are as no exact figures are given but we assume its in relation to the 21700.
Those numbers don't make sense. The new battery has five times the energy, but only 16% better range. If it had 5 times the energy density, you would expect 5 times the range.
What they've actually done is increased the size of the battery so it has 8 times the volume of a 18650 cell and 5.5 times the volume of a 21700 cell. Thus, with the same energy density, it will store 5.5 times the energy of a 21700 cell, but you won't be able to fit as many into the same space. A 16% improvement in energy density in three years is the sort of incremental improvement you would expect from normal development.
So, it may be cheaper to make a smaller number of larger cells, which raises the question of why they don't just make a few enormous cells instead of lots of tiny ones. The reason, apparently, is heat dissipation - it's much harder to keep them cool as they get bigger, and if they overheat, they'll fail. A lot of those limits are to do with chemistry and physics, so improvement will be incremental unless a battery with a completely different chemistry is developed.
Problem is, the "new" Tesla battery is still in early development and years away from production, with a reasonable chance that the scaling problems will be insurmountable. The "$25 000 Tesla in three years" is just a marketing guy throwing bullshit numbers out there to get some attention.
I’d suggest you go and actually watch the Battery Day keynote, rather than relying on secondhand badly interpreted information.
They quite clearly described how they would get the improvements they announced, the manufacturing process changes needed to get there, and the timeline.
For example, the article suggests that increasing the size of the battery makes it harder to cool. Tesla described other process improvements that will make it [b]easier[/b] to dissipate heat.
For example, the article suggests that increasing the size of the battery makes it harder to cool. Tesla described other process improvements that will make it easier to dissipate heat.
Point is, these are incremental improvements that give improvements of a few percent per year, not an exponential increase in performance. That's assuming everything goes according to plan, which it may not. Two years ago, Musk promised a 25K Tesla by next year. Now it's been pushed back two years. Either he was making shit up back then or their development schedule got massively delayed. Either way, the chances of a 25K Tesla in three years are pretty slim.
Same with autonomous taxis by Christmas this year, just Elon Musk making shit up to impress gullible fanbois. Not actually happening in real life.
Hols, perhaps you might like to read an article from someone who might actually know what they’re talking about, rather than making stuff up based on your dislike of the company’s boss:
This is also worth a read, actual costs of running a Tesla3 over 100,000 miles, in two years:
https://electrek.co/2020/09/26/tesla-model-3-high-mileage-extreme-low-cost-minimal-battery-degradation/
Hols your carping about Musk is starting to say more about you than him.
A good effort at a reasonable thread. Bit odd that it's ended up like that. 🙄
New Tesla model 3 owner here. It's quite the mix of absolute brilliance and un-usable nonsense. I love it.
Any chance of taking us for a spin in it sometime @pictonroad? They are on our company car list now although I would need a Model Y and doubt they'll be available in 12 months when mine is due (supposed to order March next year but might be able to string it out a few months)
Much as I dislike Musk and think the Teslas still have some major flaws the Supercharger network is a massive plus. We tend to drive to Germany a few times a year so your info on the improvements in the charging network are interesting @edukator, ta. Was woeful last time I looked into it.
I think what I'd really like is the VW Id5 Passat sized estate but doubt that will be available next year and even then would need to go on the company car list at a grade I can have. Got a wall charger and off street parking, most days I commute 50 to 100 miles so a BEV would be perfect 95% plus of the time. Suspect I might end up with another Passat GTE though which is annoying even if it is the definition of a first world problem!
Should get my Kia in a couple of weeks, had my pod point fitted at home this week.
I have managed to get to eastern Germany in a Model 3. Supercharging was fine - Dover / Brussels (don’t touch anything) / Wiesenthal (vegan schnitzel at the autoraststat). There’s one in Weimar which is 25km from where I’m staying which has been handy when the local charge network proved a bit unwieldy.
November for my Audi now. The Pod Point is in but needs activated as apparently I need earth bond the gas meter and water pipe. 🤷🏻♂️
I have managed to get to eastern Germany in a Model 3.
Strange, I struggled to get a few miles from Pateley Bridge to Lofthouse last night because the full beam wouldn't work properly.
When they fitted our charging point the guy drove a 2ft steel rod into the ground in the garden to use as the earth.
Really quite want an EV to replace my ageing SMax, but with 3 kids getting one that can take 3 child seats in the back is problematic.
Leaf may be possible, but that's about it. MG5 looks too narrow in the middle otherwise I'd be marching down the dealers!
NB Tesla's are way out of price range!!
Edit: Oh yeah, and we only have on street parking, on a Victorian street so until it's ok to drag a cable halfway down the street and over the road to charge "at home", it's a bit moot...
When they fitted our charging point the guy drove a 2ft steel rod into the ground in the garden to use as the earth.
That’s likely what I’ll do just earth the gas to a ground rod as doing it to the water pipe will be a pain. Just need to check with sparky friend see if that’s ok.
Here’s an interesting addition to the EV roster, Polestar are actually putting their Precept concept car into production, design work being carried out here in the U.K., manufacturing at a new, custom factory in China. There’s a significant amount of environmentally friendly materials being used, too, with flax-based composites, cork and recycled plastics.
https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/09/28/polestar-is-actually-going-to-make-the-precept-its-eco-conscious-concept-car/
https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1319233752581738496
The GMC Hummer EV will have three electric motors generating 1,000 horsepower and can run 350 miles on a full charge. It can go from 0 MPH to 60 MPH in about three seconds.
The truck will have a suspension height that can be raised about 6 inches for off-road situations. Its tires can drive diagonally in a feature called "Crab Mode."
This will be GMC's first full-electric vehicle and is set to enter production in late 2021.
We have just dipped our feet into electric vehicles for the first time. We have about 20 A Class Petrol/Electric hybrids arriving and a further 10 C Class Diesel/Electric hybrids.
From what i have heard regarding the A Class the electric is lasting for about 30mls and then you are driving around in a pretty low powered petrol engined car. It takes about 1.5hrs to recharge at a 7kw supply or quite a long time on home 3 pin and costs about £2 to recharge at home. £2 for 30mls is pretty good but it depends on you charging it every day so i would say you are looking at maybe every other day realistically (Most of our staff arent even bothering). So 182 recharges x 30mls = 5460mls costing £364. I would calculate based on normal petrol engine getting 40mpg a saving of 5460/40=136.50x4.54=619.71 x£1.10 = £682. Total saving = £318 per annum.
TBH most of us are just looking at the huge tax savings and the eletric motor boosts BHP to something like 200bhp on the A class and 300+ on the C Class.
Quite disappointing for £30-40k cars
There's never been a better time to buy an A-Class. To make charging at home even easier, we're now offering a free BP Chargemaster Homecharge wall box worth £499* when you buy a new electric or plug-in hybrid Mercedes-Benz. Alternatively, you can opt for a 2 years' free membership to Polar Plus public charging network*. Shop for your new car on our Online Showroom today.
*Wall Box offer applicable to the installation of a BP Chargemaster 7kw single phase communicating wall box, with standard domestic installation costs, or a 2 years’ free membership to Polar Plus giving you access to the Polar Network of electric vehicle charging points provided by Chargemaster Limited. Qualifying EVHS OLEV grant customers only. Subject to eligibility. No cash alternative. On new car orders and registrations from 03.09.20 – 31.12.20. Click here for full terms and conditions.
Why don't you try and take advantage of this offer, you're more likely to charge it every night if it's all just there for you (rather than having to faff with plugs and cables into the garage or house etc).
Exempt from retail offers unfortunately. Costing anyone that wants one £500 to install
Anyone have experience of >7.2kw charger?
I've got improve charging provision for a company with 1x7.2kw & 3x3.7kw single phase chargers.
I'm looking at installing two 11kw 3 phase twin outlets like this Unit
But thats over £2.5k + Labour & I don't want to scare them with the price - anyone know of cheaper options ?
depends what they need them for, if it's just a perk for staff / customers then a load of untethered 7.2kw chargers would be fine I'd imagine. If it's for delivery vehicles and they often want them charged asap then Rolec seem to be the budget manufacturer so you'll probably not find any 3phase 11kw commercial charger cheaper than the one you linked to. Surely you need to sit down with them and find out what they're going to use them for and what they need?. I've got a domestic untethered Rolec 7.2kw BTW
Has anyone experienced charging problems? My Kia is just over a week old and the first few charges were showing the 278 miles that Kia claim but now they vary between 233 to 254 miles at 100% charge. I have charged it on my home charger and works charger so I know it's not the charger.
I guess I'll be calling the lease company tomorrow to try to get it sorted.
It’s a range guess based on your previous driving just like a petrol car, with the added factor of things like heater settings.
If you’ve been doing fast motorway driving and have the heating cranked up then I wouldn’t be surprised if you see lower range estimates first thing after a charge.
The range displayed depends on how you drive, the accesories you're using, wet or dry roads, the temperature (and what setting you have the heater on). The difference in range it's showing is well within the variations you can expect. With our old Zoé 40 we saw from between 140km and 400km after charging (IIRC), the lowest after a motorway trip home foot to the floor and the highest pottering along on holiday with a slight descent before the charge.
Ah right, thanks. I didn't realise it guessed the range at charging. I was under the impression it always showed the 278 at full charge.
It is being used early morning and late afternoons so lights, wipers, heater on. I understood range did vary with things on just didn't know about the charging aspect.
@Kuco That doesn't sound right to me. If I understand correctly, you've brimmed it and when you unplug it the range is anywhere between 233-278 before you set off?
Our model 3 when charging for 'daily' (about 85%) rather than 'trip' (100%) always shows between 272-274 miles once charged, and has done for 8 months.
My E-Tron was delivered last week. What an absolutely superb car, smooth to drive, quick to pick up, boat loads of room and very comfortable. Looks like I’m getting about 160 miles at this time of the year. So far 250 miles has cost us nothing in electricity.
Sounds good! A colleague has the e-tron and absolutely loves it. Electric cars are an absolute revelation (in my view anyway). Even my wife's relatively modern petrol saloon car feels pretty agricultural these days in comparison!
Nickewen, the first few days it always showed 278 when fully charged but the last 5 days it varied
Might be worth giving the dealer who delivered it a call and see what they say. If they say the same as Edukator and simon_g then fine. If it is a battery or charging issue I want it sorting.
I had the same last week Kuco. My i3s has always shown around 150/60 when fully charged but when I got in to go to work on Friday it was showing 135 @ 100%. Turned out I had turned the heater up the day before and by turning it back down to the usual boosted the milage back up.
Compared to the air con, sport mode or 'progressive' driving the heater makes by far the biggest dent in range. Put a jumper on!
I've only driven it once in sport mode, 95% of the time it's in Eco.
Sport mode was fun though 🙂
Aye, cabin heating will absolutely destroy range. Heated seats for the win
Am I the only one who thinks a heated seat feels like I've pissed myself? 🙂
Yes.
This is worth a read, the costs involved with an EV if things go wrong can be fairly high...
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/09/vw-repair-bill-passat-gte-warranty
Of course, most modern cars have a lot more whizzy tech in them, so if something does go tits-up, it’s really gonna hurt! A glass roof getting cracked? About £2k, an LED headlight unit? About £1200. Even a front screen, if it’s heated like mine, that’s about £1000, and if it has a sensor array built into the mirror mounting for speed signs, lane deviation, etc, that’s about two and a half hours to get it replaced and recalibrated; a big screen like a C4 Grand Picasso even more than that.
Am I the only one who thinks a heated seat feels like I’ve pissed myself?
Yes
Our i3 varies between 160 and 120 miles showing after a full charge. It varies depending on the previous journey.
Perfectly normal, same as a range left in an ICE car. Mine shows between 450 and 600 depending on how it’s been driven before filing the tank.
More anti-EV propaganda from, Countzero, and about hybrids too. 😉 Full EVs tend not to have some very expensive parts to go wrong, such as an engine. 🙂
Fact is all cars are money pits and some manufacturers need more persuading than others to fix them at a fair price or under warranty. I can only comment on Renault because I only know people with Renault EVs. One motor failure repleced without question at no charge under warranty. I've paid for the full 5 years on mine, if nothing else it will make it more saleable if I decide to change.
Even a front screen, if it’s heated like mine, that’s about £1000,
Doesn’t nearly every insurance offer windscreen cover?
Anyway Stark One.
Finally* took delivery of our new Nissan Leaf last week.
NHS Lease scheme with salary sacrifice means it is only costing us around £128/month and that includes the servicing and insurance. 😲
Plus there is a free Chademo charger in a free car park about 200 metres from our house. So no need to pay for leccy either.
* (I say "finally" because it was originally due in February before Lockdown v1.0)
Plus there is a free Chademo charger in a free car park about 200 metres from our house. So no need to pay for leccy either.
yeah, I've got 5 free 50KW rapid chargers along my 15 mile commute. Haven't used my home charger yet (apart from testing it and the odd novelty charge).
Was discussing it down the pub (when such things were permitted) and the non-electrically enlightened nearly choked on their pints when running costs and free charging were mentioned. 😀
We've tried out the 3-pin plug-in home charger. We've not got a proper charging unit put in yet because we're getting the house rewired in the near(ish) future as part of an extension, so we'll do it then.
Apart from Airedale Nana (which seems to be in the staff car park?) where are the other free ones you use?
Apart from Airedale Nana (which seems to be in the staff car park?) where are the other free ones you use?
The Airedale Hospital one is at the main Entrance (not A&E) it's at a 10min short stay pickup/drop off area, in the corner. it sometimes gets blocked but often a person is sat in the car dropping off or picking up. There's a little shop just inside the entrance as well.
There's one in a car park in Silsden as well, but it's yet to be connected. Keighley Leisure centre just off the main trunk road, Keighley Church Green(haven't used that) and Bingley Train Station. There's also Ilkley and Otley (I've used the Otley one a few times as my Mum lives there)
https://engie.geniecpms.com/PublicMap
My pod point has been activated this am. I have no intention on using it to charge except when absolutely necessary. Should save me around £100 a month in fuel cost even against the hybrid.
Plus there is a free Chademo charger in a free car park about 200 metres from our house. So no need to pay for leccy either.
So what's to stop somebody hogging that space for extended periods? E.g. coming home from work on Friday, plugging in and just leaving the car blocking the charger until they leave for work on monday.
This might surprise you but the majority of EV users aren't anti-social arses. The only cars I've had to get removed from charge points to be able to use the point have been ICEs. Berlin was an exception, lots of big Merc hybrids with full batteries on charge points with free parking but Mobility+ have just put a stop to that with punitive charges beyond 4 hours.
So what’s to stop somebody hogging that space for extended periods?
There are a couple of spaces. The cables reach both.
Plus it's a small village here. If someone did that we'd soon know who they were 😀
But in places like the MetroCentre they have a large number of electric bays with chargers because they expect people to leave them plugged in while they shop.
So what’s to stop somebody hogging that space for extended periods? E.g. coming home from work on Friday, plugging in and just leaving the car blocking the charger until they leave for work on monday.
Very few people seem to take the lend, except for taxi drivers around here who will recharge after every call.
Well, I phoned Kia in Bristol and spoke to a very nice man who explained exactly what Edukator and simon_g said 🙂
Actually retro83's question makes me wonder: can a charger automatically unlock the cable when the car is fully charged? Or can that only be done from inside the car itself?
The former option seems like it would be a good solution to cars overstaying, assuming there are other spaces that the cable will reach.
Well, I phoned Kia in Bristol and spoke to a very nice man who explained exactly what Edukator and simon_g said
This might be why a lot of longer term EVers seem to advocate displaying % charge of the battery rather than miles.
Surely the solution is easy?
Have a time based charge that progressively ramps up the longer they stay after recharge or 80%*?
*dependant on location/demand
Yea I think your right B.A.Nana I think you are better looking at the %
Really enjoy driving the Kia at the moment.
The Airedale Hospital one is at the main Entrance (not A&E) it’s at a 10min short stay pickup/drop off area, in the corner. it sometimes gets blocked but often a person is sat in the car dropping off or picking up. There’s a little shop just inside the entrance as well.
There’s one in a car park in Silsden as well, but it’s yet to be connected. Keighley Leisure centre just off the main trunk road, Keighley Church Green(haven’t used that) and Bingley Train Station. There’s also Ilkley and Otley (I’ve used the Otley one a few times as my Mum lives there)
Cheers mate. Still planning on Octopus with your code!
Have a time based charge that progressively ramps up the longer they stay after recharge or 80%*?
I’ll stick with free and wait for a slot thanks.
We got a Hyundai Kona Eletric a couple of months ago.
It's been great so far! It's not the fastest EV but it's got a good punch in sport mode (far too much go for it's skinny tyres to cope with in the wet).
Can tell it's a petrol car that's been converted to EV though, for instance the boot has nowhere for you to put a charge cable, they give you a bag that floats around in the boot?! Also looks really good from the front but not so much from other angles haha.
But having had fast BMs for the last decade I'm a total convert to EV, but I think I'd try and get a purpose built EV next time.
P.s. does anyone know why an EV still has a standard 12v battery? or is that because of the petrol -> EV conversion?
The 12v battery runs all the lower voltage stuff, so lights, central locking, wipers etc. It is also always connected. The high voltage "traction" battery in an EV is normally physically disconnected by a breaker switch when it is turned off, so one job of the 12v is to re-connect the big battery when you "start" the car. That's why an EV won't start if the 12v runs flat, and will need jump starting similar to an ICE car.
(as I understand it anyway.)
Even Tesla have 12v and they're ground up EV.
hybrids won't start without a 12v but I'm not sure about pure EV. 🧐
you can camp in a tesla all night with the heaters and screen on, I assume the car has an onboard charger from HV to 12v as I think the screen is 12v.
Arent Electric cars a bit like cheating ? 😉 😛
a bit like cheating
You mean "sexy and much more fun than the tired old wreck that smells a bit"? 😉
I’ll stick with free and wait for a slot thanks.
Yeah just so you know when the time comes your opinions about as valid as toast.
Up here they did almost exactly as suggested by the previous poster in city centre free charge points to stop folk using then to park all day meaning those in need of charge couldn't get to them.
Looking to replace our yeti and I was going to lease a hybrid as approx 95% of our journeys would suit the crappy 20 mile range and the engine would be very handy for the 10 (or so) longer trips a year. Feels like I should really go all in and go EV.
So, 200 mile drive in a leaf. would you realistically be looking at a 30/40min rapid charge after 100 miles? Whats that cost? to charge up
Cost varies by provider and for some you pay a subscription. But say someone like Instavolt who just operate pay-as-you-go style contactless chargers with no membership etc, they charge 35p per kWh I believe. So a 30 minute charge on a standard 50kW rapid charger would give you 25kWh of charge which would be £8.75 assuming it charges at full whack. And say you do around 3.5 miles per KWh, that will have given you ~85 miles of added range.
(In reality as the battery gets fuller it slows down the charge, so you may not get a full 50kW rate for that time, especially on a Leaf which doesn't like rapid chargers that much due to lack of active battery cooling.)
cheers ace. just what i needed to know
Whats that cost? to charge up
Varies greatly - as mentioned above my local charger is provided by the council and is FREE to use. And that isn't as unusual as you'd think.
Just got the opportunity to get a Hyundai Kona on a mini lease. I thought it would be a good way of putting a toe in the e-mobility waters so I thought I'd give it a go. Car arrives next week. I intend to have a Pod Point 7kW home charger installed so once that's fitted I reckon 99% of all charging will be done at home. I've registered with Zap Map and as I'll be using the car for a few trips to Scotland I thought I'd get a Charge Scotland card (if England residents are allowed them). Anything else I should be doing like taking out a charging network subscription with any of the other providers or downloading their apps?
Same battery & drivetrain as my Soul uponthedowns. I've had zero need to do a long journey yet where i'm going to have to charge up to get back home.
Speaking to a work colleague yesterday and his 6 week old E Corsa has had to be picked up yesterday as it's making a very strange unsettling noise.He said it was driving fine but sounded like it was going to blow up 🙂
mini lease?
do tell me more.
mini lease?
do tell me more.
My company is switching between company car providers and employees like me who's vehicles needed replacing before we were set up with the new provider got put on so-called mini-leases with our old provider. Basically we get a new car until it has 10,000 miles or a year old then its replaced. Sounds great but I can't order a car to my spec and I have to take what they've got in their mini-lease fleet. Fortunately this time in addition to stuff like Skoda Octavia's, Golfs and Audi A4s they have a load of Hydundai Konas so I thought I'd give one a try. I was planning to get a plug in hybrid as my next permanent 4 year lease vehicle but if the Kona goes well I may well go for a BEV. Tesla Model Y would be ideal but I don't think they'll be in the country before I move to a new 4-year lease.
nice, let us know how you get on.
Doubt we'll see the Model Y before 2022 but sounds like the ID4 and Skoda Enyaq will be here early/mid next year. Hoping so and that they appear on our company car list.
The only BEVs on the list at the moment are the Model 3 (too small) and the XC4O Recharge. Again think that might be too small with 3 kids but 4WD and 400bhp sounds tempting. Unnecessary, but tempting.
Anything else I should be doing like taking out a charging network subscription with any of the other providers or downloading their apps?
If you are already on ZapMap then just have a look what providers are most common in the areas you'll be travelling.
ZapMap also have some useful stats on the market shares etc:
https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/#share
If anyone was thinking about the MG5 estate as a practical EV bike-lugger note that the permitted roof load is actually zero. Marketing info (which had showed a bike on the roof) have been changed. The roof rails on the higher spec one are apparently cosmetic only.
https://www.speakev.com/threads/no-roof-load.155387/
The roof rails on the higher spec one are apparently cosmetic only.
WTF???
That’s as daft as the BMW leccy we looked at where the salesperson casually mentioned that you couldn’t put anything heavy in the boot because the battery was under it. 😳
That’s why an EV won’t start if the 12v runs flat, and will need jump starting similar to an ICE car.
(as I understand it anyway.)
True. A significant amount of time is spent at work having to jump-start cars with flat batteries, and up until recently we had close on 3000 cars across our site and storage areas. It gets pretty tedious pretty quickly. The Teslas that come in are put on charge, as are any pure EV’s, (not that we get many of those yet) but hybrids just get put with everything else.
We did have a Toyota Mira in, but that went out on a transporter - they’re hydrogen fuel-cell tech, and it had 72 miles range left in the tank, and there’s no filling stations locally can handle that.
the XC4O Recharge.
Not a small car, we’ve got several, and the boss has one, I had to move one out of storage for a transporter on Monday, and they’re not dainty! Roughly the same length as an Octavia, at a guess, and a lot taller. Lovely to drive, I would guess an electric version would be pretty rapid, and quiet.
I read today that Toyota are bringing out a new EV with a solid-state battery - gives around 310 miles range, but can be charged in 10 minutes! Now that could be the game-changer.
@CountZero - how does the XC4O interior compare size wise to a Passat estate? Boot looks a bit pokey from the outside and also think the back seats likely to be smaller overall for three passengers. Need to get to a dealer for a look really
I'm still just amazed at GrahamS' Leaf at such a daft cheap price - insurance and servicing means the cost of that Leaf is maybe £70 a month?
Personally I’m still struggling with car choice. We wanted an SUV and the full electric Xc40 would be perfect but Crikey it’s not cheap. With now only 9 years until diesel is gone, throwing 20k on 2nd hand diesel GLC in the interim seems a waste and that we’d be throwing a Merc away in 2030.
it feels to me that running our Kuga as bangernomics for a couple more years until new electric cars at cheaper prices become available, albeit a new DPF is on the horizon. Feels environmentally counter intuitive to me.