Forum menu
Just got my Grandland Ultimate EV.
It's a very substantial car and everything is looking good from a quick drive apart from the suspension - is a bit mushy. Small-ish point but a bit annoying compared to my previous kodiaq.
Lots of nice technology - let's see what the efficiency and load carrying brings.
Nice to have front window de-icer and high quality 360 cameras.
Was a cheap lease ultimately.
42KWh battery Simon? If so that's a decent deal. If only they'd shoehorned a 50KWh in I'd have had another. I'll be buying an EV once current lease is up, still not sure what to punt for. I did like my i3s though.
Yes, 42kwh/120ah. Prices are all over the place with some very optimistic sellers.
Did have a missing key (was £300 for local mobile guy to do a new one and disable the missing one) and a few rear bumper scratches from things being loaded (covered with a £70 RGM rearguard) but other than that it's in great shape. Even got wireless Carplay activated for under £30 including buying an enet cable. Really pleased with it.
@trail_rat correct no battery temperature management on the leafs, but there was chemistry change so you don’t get the same issues. We have a 62kwh tekna as a second car and it’s brilliant. 4 years old I think and battery perfect, wife doesn’t bother not charging to 100!
What I’d say with the leafs is the chademo is a bit of a pain, they do feel a little tinny compared to the latest efforts. But we can’t come up with any coherent argument to change it. It’s very good.
Solely regulatory issues now. I hate driving and can't wait to hand over the job to the computer.
I wonder if it the Tesla can complete the magic roundabout when it is gridlocked and it can't see the road markings?
liability issues. what happens to insurance when the tesla trolley problems through a bus stop?
Did my first trip that relied on public chargers (long weekend from Aberdeenshire to the Lake District) so thought I'd share some thoughts. I'll split it into a report and some observations, so you can skip the first parts if you don't want all the details.
Report Started with 100% charge. We always tend to stop at the big Tesco in Dundee when travelling south to get provisions. There is a bank of 14 BP Pulse chargers on the roundabout next door, so we headed there. The car predicted that we'd have 68% left at Dundee. ABPR predicted 70% and we actually arrived with 71% (so not bad). We were travelling on a Thursday in the school holidays (Scotland and England). Roads were pretty busy. Arrived at Dundee around midday, but all 14 chargers were free. Took a stupid number of button presses to get to the bit where I scanned my debit card but it connected OK and by the time we had done our shopping the car was back up to 93%.
Got to the English border and needed to stop for a wee. The car will show occupancy of chargers on the route (which I filtered to only show chargers over 100kw). We could see that 4 of 6 of the the Gridserve chargers at Todhills were supposedly free, so we headed there. In fact all 6 were free when we arrived. These were easier to use than the BP pulse ones. Tap card, plug in, job done. That leg was 159 miles, which is about as far as we'd ever travel without a stop. Arrived on 41% and by the time we'd had a wee, grabbed a coffee and disposed of some rubbish we were back up to 80%, which meant we arrived in Coniston with 62% left (plenty for some local journeys). Car had predicted 60% so again, not bad.
Popped to Booths in Windemere to stock up on beer, tea and other treats the day before heading home, so stuck the car on the Instavolt chargers there (plenty free at 4pm on a Sunday). Again easy to use and by the time we'd finished pottering round the shop we were back to 99%.
Leaving to come back home, the car said we could go 213 miles to Dundee and still have 15% left, but we didn't wat to go that far so again used the car map to check for free chargers when we wanted to stop. Car said there were 6 of 6 Evolt chargers free at Cairn Lodge (actually three chargers with two connectors on each charger). That seemed a bit strange as others nearby seemed busier, but we headed there anyway. When we got there two were in use and another 2 cables on the same charger seemed to be out of action (or at least I couldn't make them work and neither could another driver who tried). The other one I tried took multiple attempts to get it to connect. Not sure if I was doing something wrong. The instructions that were printed on a sign behind the charger didn't seem to match what the screen was saying. But eventually (by random chance!) I seemed to hit on the right sequence and it started charging. Not sure exactly what level it was at by the time we had finished our lunch, but we arrived home with 32% left, so obviously more than enough. I checked ZapMap and ABRP while we were eating and both showed 6/6 available the whole time we were there, when in fact there were 3 cars charging most of the time I think and 2 out of order.
TLDR: 4 charging stops (two on the way down, one while there and one on the way back). None were dictated by the car. We just stopped when we wanted to for as long as we wanted to stop. OK, we chose the exact locations to stop at based on (reported) availability of chargers but it was still basically when we wanted to stop. So, total journey time (just over 300 miles each way) was no different to what it would have been in an ICE car. I guess it might even have been a few minutes faster as we didn't need to make a specific stop for fuel (although there was a fair bit of faffing to get the Evolt charger to work, so maybe not). Availability was never an issue. Checking occupancy on ABRP now (2pm on a Monday) is shows 12/14 free at Dundee and 5/6 free at Todhills.
Observations: The fact that the car can show the occupancy of chargers along the route takes a lot of the stress away. However, more work is clearly required to improve the accuracy of this. I note that ZapMap is still showing 6/6 free at Cairn Lodge but if you click on the details it does show that 2 are reported to be out of action (so why show 6/6 and are those other 4 really all free?).
This is probably specific to my car, but not all CPOs are in the database. For example, going past Gretna it was reporting that 2 of the 4 Ionity chargers were free but there was no mention of the 12 Applegreen ones. Also, it turns out that there is also a bank of (open to all) V4 Tesla chargers at Todhills (with nice long cables). These are no doubt cheaper than the Gridserve ones, but you needed to download the app and register a card and I couldn't be bothered. Probably would before heading south again though.
The different procedures required for different chargers is just stupid and was the only real source of frustration on the whole trip. Maybe in the early days of petrol pumps they all worked in different ways too, but that's clearly something that needs to be standardised. With the Evolt one it wasn't even clear which of the two cables it was talking about at some points, the one I wanted or the one plugged into the car next to me.
I have no idea what the estimated range of my car was. I dare say it was different for each leg of the journey and would change depending on weather, traffic and how I was driving. But it's irrelevant really (as is the estimated efficiency). Either it can go as far as you want it to go or it can't and in this case it easily could. May be a different story in winter of course, but there was enough left over that I doubt it will require much (if any) changes to what we would do anyway even then.
Charging speed was also fine. In fact I found myself thinking (at Cairn Lodge) that it might be useful if the app allowed you to slow down the charge so you could finish your soup before it was done. I could have stopped the charge on the app, but then I'm sitting on a charger without charging, which seemed wrong, so I let it carry on even though I knew I had more than enough to get home. A less lazy person would have just moved it of course.
No idea what it cost at each stop. Could check and I dare say it would be at least as much as an ICE car, but when you do most of your charging at 7p/kwh at home the cost of public charging on half a dozen journeys a year seems pretty much irrelevant.
The EV3 is loaded with all sorts of driving aids. Adaptive cruise, self steering, it will even change lane for you on a motorway (and some major A roads). Tap the indicator and it checks that it is safe then changes lane for you. I found that these aids were great on long boring stretches where traffic wasn't too heavy, but once things got a bit more frantic I found them less helpful and just reverted to manual mode. Overall though they still made the total journey less tiring.
A good read, similar experience here the other week when we went East Kilbride to Northumberland for a week and back home. Motorway charging generally simpler than slower ones away from main routes. The EV3 mapping and charge friendly route suggestions is good, though not quite as simple or slick as the i4 was.
@roverpig, are you carrying bikes in yours ? I had gravel bike, wheels off, in a bag upright behind front seats as we just had the dog and bags with us. Have eventually got a date for towbar fitting at Kia Stirling in a fortnight, the wiring kit was on back order for a month.
@roverpig It’s almost like you were worrying needlessly for months and that all those people who told you that the problems you imagined weren’t actually real were kinda right all along.
Weird huh?
@iainc No bikes this time, but we were loaded with camping and running stuff.
Took a little while to get the hang of all the different bits of information it can show you in different windows, but once I'd worked it out it really was very impressive. Just need to work on improving the accuracy and comprehensiveness, but I'm sure that will come.
@roverpig It’s almost like you were worrying needlessly for months and that all those people who told you that the problems you imagined weren’t actually real were kinda right all along.
Weird huh?
Quite possibly. Or maybe all my careful research over months allowed me to choose a car that was right for my needs 😀 Truth is probably somewhere in-between.
but when you do most of your charging at 7p/kwh at home the cost of public charging on half a dozen journeys a year seems pretty much irrelevant.
This is the key takeaway... SOOOOO much of EV travel is SOOOOO cheap (due to home charging) that in the grand scheme, paying 40-60p/kWh at a fast charger doesn't really make a big dent as long as it's only every so often.
Glad you ahd a good journey, and realised that the key with an EV is to 'do something' whilst it's charging, or charge whilst 'doing something'...
All the EV haterzzzzz think we plug in and stand there, watching the car hum and click for 20 min!
DrP
liability issues. what happens to insurance when the tesla trolley problems through a bus stop?
Since it's supervised at the moment, one assumes the same thing that would happen if you ploughed through the bus stop?
There is no trolley problem with autonomous vehicles; every time one might come up the solution is either "car should have been going slower", which is a fix at the design stage, or "brakes as hard as possible to mitigate the problem". Which also leads back to point one, which again is addressed at the design stage.
As drivers we conjure up trolley problems because we routinely drive too fast.
4 charging stops (two on the way down, one while there and one on the way back). None were dictated by the car. We just stopped when we wanted to for as long as we wanted to stop.
total journey time (just over 300 miles each way) was no different to what it would have been in an ICE car. I guess it might even have been a few minutes faster as we didn't need to make a specific stop for fuel
That matches my experience really well. In the real world, humans generally want to stop more than the car needs to. So it’s very rarely an issue.
I note that ZapMap is still showing 6/6 free at Cairn Lodge but if you click on the details it does show that 2 are reported to be out of action (so why show 6/6 and are those other 4 really all free?).
One thing to look out for is when the charger was last used. I have come across chargers showing as available on the electoverse app but unable to connect when you get to them. But looking deeper the last use was weeks ago. I reported them as broken, but the point is lack of recent use is an indication to try somewhere else if poss.
Thanks for the tip. I guess that only works if you have a passenger to check the chargers for you though. The car claims to be able to tell you the occupancy of chargers along your route and if it really can do that then it takes all of the stress out of the process. Generally, on a long journey, (for us) it will be a case of "fancy a stop in around half an hour" so being able to see what chargers are coming up and how busy they are makes it really easy to pick a suitable place to stop. But for that to work the information has to be accurate and at the moment it looks as though it is not quite there. Having said that, the chargers it thought were likely to be free were. So it was never actually a problem and it's probably never going to be able to accurately predict what the occupancy will be in half an hour anyway.
Well getting my new EV company car has been put back a few months now which is frustrating. Ah well, perhaps I'll have some new models to choose from in that time.
Since it's supervised at the moment, one assumes the same thing that would happen if you ploughed through the bus stop?
But I think the more interesting question is what happens once it is no longer supervised. I can see the technology getting to the point where the driver pretty much never intervenes. But making that final jump to "the driver is no longer responsible when it goes wrong" is tricky as I can't see the manufacture wanting to take responsibility and I'm note sure drivers will be happy handing over all control but still being the one held responsible when it goes wrong.
I'm already annoyed by some of the existing "aids" for this very reason. Or at least by the way they are made difficult to disable. If I'm still the one who is going to be held responsible for any accidents then I should get to decide how the car is set up. If you are going to force me to use an "aid" whether I want to or not then you should be taking some responsibility when it fails.
As drivers we conjure up trolley problems because we routinely drive too fast.
That sounds like a problem for wide adoption of the technology right there. If the FSD car is going to be slower than the manual one, will drivers choose to use it? I can see the argument that they should, but whether they would seems debatable.
I experienced a bit of this even with the lower level driving aids on my car (adaptive cruise, auto-steer, auto-lane-change). I thought they were great on long stretches of the M73 where traffic was light, but as soon as we got close to Glasgow (at rush hour) when the risk of an accident presumably increased dramatically, I reverted to manual mode as the aids didn't seem to be able to cope with traffic changing lanes left right and centre. It wouldn't let me move into a gap in the outside lane that it thought was too small, even if the person coming up behind was flashing to let me out, for example.
I wonder how an FSD car will cope in Rome, for example 😀
I've just pushed the button on my first EV. Gone for an Elroq 85 Edition via my work's salary sacrifice scheme. Looking like a lead time of about 12 weeks but I imagine that might slip. The savings on the scheme were too good to ignore and the price includes insurance, servicing, tyres, VED etc, not to mention the far lower running costs. Both my neighbours have recently moved to EVs and I've had a good few chats with them about how cheap it is to "fill the tank" so to speak. My diesel Mazda CX5 was on the cusp of incurring a big bill or two thanks to the joys of Euro 6 gubbins so I managed to offload that via Motorway yesterday for a couple of grand more than I expected and that extra bit of cash will pay for the home charger.
If the FSD car is going to be slower than the manual one, will drivers choose to use it?
Except the FSD car will (likely) get there quicker anyway by making better decisions on route and speed choices, probably use less fuel too.
Glasgow (at rush hour) when the risk of an accident presumably increased dramatically, I reverted to manual mode as the aids didn't seem to be able to cope with traffic changing lanes left right and centre. It wouldn't let me move into a gap in the outside lane that it thought was too small
similar here, likely same bits of road too. If I leave the aids on I find I tend to remain in one lane with a sensible distance in front as set by the adaptive cruise, and then have other drivers going into that gap, causing my car to brake, unnecessary and risking a rear ending for me.
as with you, I switch it all off on busy roads. It is only 2 buttons on the steering wheel so no great shakes.
Sorry, I'm going to be one of those lazy people who can't be bothered to do much research themselves...
Old ICE car is getting annoyingly troublesome, and I'd rather move on to an EV before it dies completely.
I've been pleasantly surprised at the prices of small to medium 2nd hand EV's on Autotrader. I can find lots of lowish milage, up to 30k, 2-3 years old, 200mile+ range for under 15k. Nissan Leaf, MG4, Corsa, ID3 etc.
We could pay cash, with trade-in for the old car. Will need to install a charger at home too, but as we drive only a couple of times a week, no need for something fast.
If there was a car to aim for, or steer clear of, what would my STW EV friends tell me?
I was in a similar position. Old ICE car, cash buyer. I was fortunate to have a slightly bigger budget to play with, but in your position I’d be looking at the 64kwh Kia Niro from around 2022. Sometimes referred to as the e-Niro (as distinct from the newer Niro EV). Plenty of sub 30k mikes sub £15k examples on autotrader.
The efficiency and reliability of the e-Niro are both really good, so you should get closer to the (fantasy) WLTP range more often.
The MG is a good option at that price too, especially if you prefer the looks. I have a friend with one and he is very happy with it. Personally I found that it felt a bit more “built down to a price” than the Niro with a few more niggly software issues. But that’s just personal preference really.
OK, talk to me about charging away from the house. I've got an Ohme charger being fitted on Monday and will get the car start of September. It's a Kia EV6. What app(s) do I need to be able to charge fairly easily when away from the house and how does it all work?
Use your debit or credit card when charging away from the house.
Or look into the options that might give you discounts.
Think of it like going shopping for food and using a retailer card that give you a discount if you present their card at the till. Sign up for a few, usually free and you might get a cheaper price per KW at the charger.
If there was a car to aim for, or steer clear of, what would my STW EV friends tell me?
You have the Corsa on that list, it's the same car underneath as my e208, you ain't going to get near your requirement of 200+ mile range. WLTP range is 180 miles I think, more like 150 in real life. Having said that, I've needed to charge away from home precisely zero times in nearly two years of ownership - but obviously everyone's use case is different.
OK, talk to me about charging away from the house. I've got an Ohme charger being fitted on Monday and will get the car start of September. It's a Kia EV6. What app(s) do I need to be able to charge fairly easily when away from the house and how does it all work?
See my long rambling report on my first trip away from home above if you want all the gory details. But basically I just used the in-car navigation to tell me what chargers were likely to be free and then just used my debit card (or applypay on my phone) to pay for each charging session (four in total over a long weekend away). Despite going to a honeypot location (Lakes) during (Scottish and English) school holidays, I never had a problem finding a free charger and (despite a bit of hassle with one charger) always managed to start the charge.
You can use various apps, RFID cards and membership of various schemes to bring the price down a bit if you want. Personally, I do over 90% of my charging at home (at 7p/kwh) so find the cost of the few public charging sessions I need to do is pretty much irrelevant. So I was happy to just tap my card and accept that it would probably cost as much as (if not more than) filling up my ICE car on the motorway.
I wonder how an FSD car will cope in Rome, for example
Well, since you mention it...
Tesla Full Self Driving (Supervised) test in Rome center, Italy
RE charging away from home; i've found the 2 most useful 'things' to have are
1 - an electroverse card. just tap against pretty much all chargers and it jsut bills to your account. works well in UK and abroad.
2 - Tesla app - many superchargers are open to non tesla, and are fast and cheap.
DrP
Well it didn't crash which I guess is something 😀 Might have been quicker to walk (or cycle) though as the video mostly seemed to consist of watching other cars flying past or disappearing off into the distance.
The problem with all of these videos though is that you are basically watching a few minutes where it worked (or some dramatic failure if the poster is on the other side of the argument). What matters is how and how often it fails.
It's the same with most AI discussions really. It's usually "here is a case where it works brilliantly" or "here is a case where it is useless" when what matters is how often it fails and what the consequences of those failures might be.
Uneducated guess but I suspect that once the statistics are there an insurance company will only provide third-party cover for an at-fault accident where the car's self-driving capability (supervised or not) wasn't used. I'm surprised that they haven't already done this for incidents where the EDR shows that safety aids were disabled at the start of a journey, they could save millions in payouts.
I'm surprised that they haven't already done this for incidents where the EDR shows that safety aids were disabled at the start of a journey, they could save millions in payouts.
And yet, as you say, they haven't.
I think they are nervous about moving away from strict liability of the driver. The aids are just that, aids that the driver can choose to use (or not) but ultimately it is the driver who remains responsible. Once you start forcing the driver to use an aid you open yourself up to the defence of "I crashed because I was distracted by this aid that you forced me to use". So now the driver can try to hold the insurance company partially responsible for the accident and try to reclaim some costs that might not have been covered by their insurance.
To bring it back to the topic of the thread, my new EV is stuffed full of aids. Some of which I find useful and some of which I just find distracting. Other drivers have different (often strongly held) views and that's fine. But unless the manufacturer (or whoever forces me to use them) is going to start to share responsibility for any accidents, it remains my choice as to whether I use them or not.
A timely news story - Tesla found to be partially at fault for an accident involving Autopilot. Maybe Elon will rethink his marketing and technical solutions, but I doubt it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93dqpkwx4xo
Aids don't force you to do anything, they aren't culpable in an accident. At least, not well designed ones. If you have a car that yanks the wheel hard one way or the other based on poor data so hard that you crash, then that's a poor design. But a medium nudge like I get in my Hyundai is never going to cause an accident. This is nothing to complain about IMO, and I'm pretty sure that there are good statistics that show that overall, the aids save a lot of accidents, but I can't be bothered to search for it. Aids don't force you to do anything, they aren't culpable in an accident. At least, not well designed ones. If you have a car that yanks the wheel hard one way or the other based on poor data so hard that you crash, then that's a poor design. But a nudge like I get in my Hyundai is never going to cause an accident. It's weird at first but you get used to it very quickly. It's also easy to disable with a single button press once you end up in an environment where it doesn't work that well e.g. a narrow B road. This is nothing to complain about IMO, and I'm pretty sure that there are good statistics that show that overall, the aids save a lot of accidents, but I can't be bothered to search for it.
What app(s) do I need to be able to charge fairly easily when away from the house and how does it all work?
Just use your debit card at rapid chargers, it's much easier than fannying about with apps. It seems like most slow chargers need apps, there's a host of 2-bit 'networks' of slow chargers that are a bit rubbish, but they're not very useful so I hardly ever use them. The only apps I have are Electroverse (only because I couldn't get them to send me the RFID card and if I use them I get 8% off for being an Octopus customer) and ZapMap, to browse for chargers whilst planning trips. I don't use it on the move though, I just go with what the car says.
I can find lots of lowish milage, up to 30k, 2-3 years old, 200mile+ range for under 15k. Nissan Leaf, MG4, Corsa, ID3 etc.
Don't get a Leaf - it's first-gen tech and whilst they are ok these days, the other options are far better. I would go for a Kona personally as I think Hyundai are doing a great job with the tech and with looking after customers of older cars with updates.
If there was a car to aim for, or steer clear of, what would my STW EV friends tell me?
We've been very pleased with our e-Niro. It's comfortable, well equipped, spacious, and very efficient. Its rapid charging is slower than some other models but the range is so good that it's rarely a problem. You just have to wait a few minutes longer at a public charger.
They are just aids. They aren't going to distract you and allow you to drive off the road etc. rather the opposite.
I think what insurance companies fear are the words ' i crashed because the lane control dud something weird' after 'it's not my fault'.
Which ones do you particularly not like ? Im not fond of the lane assistant but as you know, hold down the button for three seconds
The USA has a road safety record similar to India. Poorly trained drivers, stunning inattentiveness, prolific phone use, higher speeds, narrow lanes, HGVs doing 90mph plus, and a ban on some advanced driving aids that we get in Europe while randomly allowing things like FSD.
To be honest Tesla have had this coming for their naming conventions and marketing strategy, but ultimately the blame still lies with the person behind the wheel who wasn't paying attention.
Got our first EV today. Previous gen Kona Electric. It was that or a Nero, Nero was larger but meh. £14k for a 25k mile car with tons of kit seems like a bargain.
Once more people realise this and actually follow the reasoning to its logical conclusion, the problem around FSD (and driving generally) in cities will miraculously solve itself...Might have been quicker to walk (or cycle) though as the video mostly seemed to consist of watching other cars flying past or disappearing off into the distance.
ultimately the blame still lies with the person behind the wheel who wasn't paying attention.
not leagally, it belongs with the software developers. Any car with active assit can self drive to a degree, its just Musk has spouted nonsense about his.
they've got an out of court settlement department.
Does anyone have any experience with the E-Combo Life or other Stalantis variants? I'm looking for a small biking van, we have a Passat we can use for long journeys, so an ev could be perfect for 120 mile trips to Wales and the like for biking. There are almost new 2024 52KWh XL versions available for £17000-18000 that seem like bargains, although way higher than the £10000 I was thinking of spending on a 1.6D Berlingo, but inline with a half decent Caddy Maxilife which is another option.
not leagally, it belongs with the software developers. Any car with active assit can self drive to a degree
No, I think it depends how you phrase it. If you call it 'driving assistance' then it's just that. You drive, it helps. If you call it 'full self driving' then that implies it can drive itself. Even if the small print says you're responsible, then some jurisdictions will take the name of the service into account because of what it suggests.
Finally took the Buzz on a trip where we needed to charge away from home. 1300 miles from the Highlands to Pembrokeshire to the Lakes, to home and then even furtherer into the Highlands. Charging was indeed a non-issue. As with every petrol car we've ever had we tended to stop every 2-3 hours.
Paid the £10 to Ionity for cheaper charging and mostly used those. Was amazed by the ease of use and speed of charging, the car was always back up to 100% before we'd finished our coffee and loo breaks. Even in the depths of Scotland, the slower chargers with 45 minute limits still did what they needed to do. I also liked getting a top up when we were stopped at supermarkets. Made me feel better about how much time we spent in them!
During one charge we walked to a nearby petrol station to get some sweets. Littlemissbunk scoffed at the losers having to stand by their cars to fill up.
I had a chat with posties who were using the EV Berlingo/Partner and a lot weren't getting 100 miles out them. Seems a real shame as I really wanted one to replace the diesel Partner we had. Going from almost 700 miles to possibly 100 just wasn't workable for me.
@thebunk sounds like a good vacation. What’s the real world range you’re getting from the buzz?
I’m still really interested in this bus, you don’t see many about, where I thought they’d be super popular.
Few weeks later with the Grandland EV.
It's a fantastic car. Everything going well and working well. Averaging about 3.8-4 m/kWh at 73 kWh battery capacity. So about 280 miles ish. 300 miles definitely within reach. There's a 93kWh coming soon for 400 miles.
Can't make my mind up about the regen though seems to do quite a bit but then people talk about coasting doing more for range.
The suspension is poor though. Very disappointed with that. Less of an issue on cruise speed roads. Can live with it.
On next v9 Eon 12-7am at 6.7p p kW fixed 12 months.
(I think that package is now 12-6am.)
Boot is good, deep but not wide. Need to try a bike next. Shame it doesn't have roof rails. As that will mean considerable investment in a new rack set up for me.
Can't make my mind up about the regen though seems to do quite a bit but then people talk about coasting doing more for range.
A lot of people don't understand this properly. The car will always use regen braking as much as it can (of course, why would it not?) when you slow down. Pressing the brake pedal just indicates how much you want to slow down, the car uses regen. Only if you stamp on the pedal does it use friction brakes - or at very low speeds. The regen setting just determines how much regen is applied when you lift off the accelerator. So if you drive the same way, you get the same amount of regen regardless. If you coast a lot and brake minimally then yes, you'll be efficient, but you can achieve the exact same effect with the accelerator pedal alone if you drive in the same smooth manner.
The exception to this is I think the BMW i3 (or at least earlier models) or maybe Tesla, it's not clear.
Yes, regen levels have very little (if anything) to do with efficiency and are really just about how you want the car to feel. There are lots of different ways that automatic regen can be implemented. Some cars give lots of choices, some not so much, but none of them (as far as I know) do anything that you couldn't just do with your foot. So if it has any effect on efficiency it is really just down to whether you or the car is the better driver 😀
My EV3, for example, offers 4 levels of regen (which I can control with paddles). For each level I can also choose whether I want the car to come to a complete stop or just a "creep". So, that's 8 different options. On top of that there is a rather fancy auto setting that reacts to the car/bike in front and also uses the GPS data to apply the regen as you approach bends, roundabouts, junctions etc. That really does allow for driving quite long distances using just one pedal. But it still doesn't do anything you couldn't just do yourself and whether you want the car to apply the brakes for you or whether you prefer to do it yourself is just down to personal preference.
Just had my first properly rubbish experience with my EV (Lexus RZ) - I have always known that the range is a bit crap, but we went to Manchester airport (72 miles away). The battery was at 100% when we set off from home, and at 54% when we set back off from the airport two weeks later (and I drove very steadily all the way). There were four + luggage in the car, but that's still pretty crap. On the way back we stopped at Hartshead Moor to recharge it when it was at 20% and looking unlikely to get us home (so that's <140 miles from a full charge). At the stop there were two chargers outside the services, both being used and I was told that one was charging really slowly. There were a further two chargers outside a Starbucks, again both being used and someone else waiting. Then of course there were a whole bank of Tesla Only chargers, none being used. So, all in all, a pretty crappy experience – I am pretty surprised at the lack of charging facilities (I ended up going somewhere else to top up).
And, with a mix of urban and quite a few longer trips over 11,000 miles, we have got an average of 2.8kwh.
I like driving electric, but I am seriously considering going back to and ICE next time.
do anything that you couldn't just do with your foot.
I'm not convinced about this. After we all chatted about this before I've been doing some investigating both online and practical experimenting. And chatting to a Kia mechanic.
With my car at any rate, if you touch the brake pedal it always uses an element of actual friction braking. It will add a good dollop of regen too - but there is always some friction braking. So if you drove a country lane with the regen levels set at the very lowest level your car will allow and approached a corner, lifted and put your foot on the brake pedal some of the speed will be washed off and turned into heat. If you have a higher regen level set and as you approached the corner started to gently life you will be at your corner speed all on regen. You will need to lift earlier and will have lost 'time' if that matter to you but I still think it's more efficient.
Ultimately it's probably mostly down to driving style. If you drive it like you stole it approaching corners fast, slow at the last minute and accelerate away hard you are going to eat battery much faster than slowing with modest regen only and accelerate more progressively that will make more difference than anything.
In other news I've discovered the limitations of adaptive cruise control - if the road is a bit gently winding with corners you don't need to brake for at sane speeds the adaptive cruise control sees the car you have been following in front disappear as it turns and starts to accelerate when you don't want to.
we have got an average of 2.8kwh
That seems quite low. How much do you think that's the car, your driving style or the terrain you drive in?
I've noticed quite a difference in some of my trips. I live rurally at about 200m above sea level. My nearest town is by the sea about 8 miles away. On the way in it's pretty much impossible to get my efficiency below 4.5 miles/kWh. On the way home 2.5 miles/kWh is normal.
From an efficiently perspective it oddly fells far more like riding a (road) bike. In an ICE you hardly really notice small altitude charges or headwinds but on a bike it is fundamental. Same now in an EV.
With my car at any rate, if you touch the brake pedal it always uses an element of actual friction braking.
That's surprising. Not sure why it would do that. Mine has a "brake cleaning" function because the friction brakes are used so rarely they can get rusty. Maybe it is something to do with trying to blend the regen and friction brakes more smoothly or something.
I've done various tests with the (9) different regen options on mine and can't detect any consistent effect on efficiency beyond the obvious one that slowing down too much and then having to accelerate again is less efficient. If I can be bothered then I can always beat any of the regen modes by turning regen off completely (level zero) and just being really careful with braking, but in practice I'll usually have some kind of regen on just because it is easier to drive and I have a big enough battery that I don't really care about the odd tenth of a mile per kWh in efficiency.
That seems quite low. How much do you think that's the car, your driving style or the terrain you drive in?
The car is notoriously inefficient - on motorways I rarely go over the speed limit. Over the 11,000 miles we have done in it, I'd say it has been a fair mix of urban, rural and motorway driving.
Just had my first properly rubbish experience with my EV (Lexus RZ) - I have always known that the range is a bit crap, but we went to Manchester airport (72 miles away). The battery was at 100% when we set off from home, and at 54% when we set back off from the airport two weeks later (and I drove very steadily all the way). There were four + luggage in the car, but that's still pretty crap. On the way back we stopped at Hartshead Moor to recharge it when it was at 20% and looking unlikely to get us home (so that's <140 miles from a full charge). At the stop there were two chargers outside the services, both being used and I was told that one was charging really slowly. There were a further two chargers outside a Starbucks, again both being used and someone else waiting. Then of course there were a whole bank of Tesla Only chargers, none being used. So, all in all, a pretty crappy experience – I am pretty surprised at the lack of charging facilities (I ended up going somewhere else to top up).
And, with a mix of urban and quite a few longer trips over 11,000 miles, we have got an average of 2.8kwh.
I like driving electric, but I am seriously considering going back to and ICE next time.
There are a couple of different things to unpack there. First, the issue of the range of the car and whether it is enough for your needs or not. Personally I don't think expressing range as a number is that useful. It varies so much with weather, terrain and driving style anyway, but in reality it is binary. Either the car has enough range that you never have to stop for the car (i.e. you stop when you want to anyway) or it doesn't. Once it does, having more range doesn't really gain you anything useful (you are just lugging round extra weight "just in case"). But obviously there are lots of EVs with a much longer range than your Lexus.
Second is the issue of being able to find a charger. Lots of modern EVs will tell you the occupancy (and power) of chargers along your route, so you can pick a convenient place to stop where you know you will be able to charge. If not then you can use apps (like ABRP, ZapMap etc) though Carplay (or AA). They aren't perfect, but are getting better all the time.
Finally, that efficiency does seem low, but I don't know where you live, how you drive or much about the Lexus. It could just be than an EV doesn't suit your needs though. They don't need to be the answer for everybody.
It's a fantastic car.And
The suspension is poor though.Does not really compute!
Because all cars are compromises of something and everything is great apart from the suspension.
Pros
Space
Comfort
Controls
Build quality
Features (front window deicer) mirrors that tilt down when reversing.
Good range and power is good.
Steering is good
Seats
Soundsystem
Android integration / hud / wireless AA.
Leccy boot that's a good size.
It's well sound proofed inside.
Cons so far.
Suspension isn't up to my kodiaq and other VAG stuff.
beyond the obvious one that slowing down too much and then having to accelerate again is less efficient.
I'm not going to say that's user error.....but that's user error! 😀
I find with some subtly on the throttle foot even with the regen on maximum it allows you can be totally in control of the rate of slowing from super gentle to brisk. If you are very digital about it and just lift your foot completely off I can see how this could be a thing. For me at least it's just become completely intuitive now and beyond an emergency or slowing the last couple of miles an hour to a complete stop, I never touch the brake pedal (this is 95% country lane driving).
I am pretty surprised at the lack of charging facilities
You didn't have a quick scout beforehand? It's certainly not often the case - every services I use has been rolling out chargers like no tomorrow - orginally they had two or three, now there's 20 or 30. On our holiday (sadly in the diesel) we stopped at Hopton Wood where there's 52 chargers! Ok so 20 are Tesla only, and it serves both directions but it's still a lot.
I like driving electric, but I am seriously considering going back to and ICE next time.
I don't want to pile on but your Lexus sounds terrible. Your solution is not returning to ICE, it's getting a much better car which is basically any other modern EV. 300 miles is standard these days for real world range in summer (provided you don't speed - don't speed in an EV unless you've got plenty of charge to spare). For that money you could get the new Mercedes CLA which has almost 500 miles. You can do far better than 140. Even my now ancient Ioniq 38 can reliably do 200 summer miles, and these are only about £8k used now.
Suspension isn't up to my kodiaq and other VAG stuff.
Did it come with massive wheels and tiny tyres? I've no idea why manufacturers spec these, they really slash range and are dreadful for comfort. Hyundai fit 20s but there is a secret factory option of 18s that they don't want to tell you about, and it's a far better size - because it's an option it doesn't count as a mod and they are available from dealers. However, this doesn't necessarily help you as after market wheels are a bit of a lottery and very expensive.
I'm not going to say that's user error.....but that's user error! 😀
That was kind of my point 😀
I said I can always beat the car, it's probably more accurate to say that I can get the same efficiency whatever level of regen I select. All that changes is how much I lift off the accelerator and how often I have to actually use the brake pedal. But, as far as I can tell, my car isn't doing anything clever. Changing the level of regen just changes the point in the travel of the accelerator that corresponds to coasting. On level zero lifting off completely is coasting and any braking requires use of the brake pedal. Level 3 and coasting is about one third of the way into the travel. Anything above that and the car is (regen) braking. But I've not found that any of the levels actually change the efficiency in any consistent way once I've got the hang of how to drive in that level. Usually I'm most efficient in whichever level I've been using most recently.
The exception is probably the auto mode where it can be hard to anticipate how much regen it will apply without knowing how sharp it thinks the bend will be. So in that mode it might brake a bit more than I wanted if I'm not quick enough and that can reduce efficiency a bit. But that mode is so easy to drive in that I often select it anyway.
But that mode is so easy to drive in that I often select it anyway.
same, I click it from LV2 to Smart Autoregen every time I start it. The only time I use any other mode is in stop start traffic when I switch it to one pedal mode (i-pedal 2).
The only time I use any other mode is in stop start traffic when I switch it to one pedal mode (i-pedal 2).
I've obviously not got the hand of i-pedal yet as I don't find it offers any advantage over auto, even in traffic. In auto, if the car in front stops then it will automatically brake so that I come to a halt behind the car. In i-pedal it just seems to apply a consistent amount of braking that may or may not be enough to stop me in time.
I don't drive much in heavy traffic though.
I click it from LV2 to Smart Autoregen every time I start it.
Doesn’t it remember which regen mode you’ve selected when you switch the car off?
In the EV6 all the regen modes except for ipedal are persistent. I leave it in Auto and it stays there until I change it.
I assumed the EV3 would be the same?
The EV3 is the opposite: i-pedal is now persistent but auto isn't. Doesn't really make sense, but it's all just software so could change in the next update.
Auto regen level is permanently selectable on my Hyundai and is actually the default.
Re iPedal, when I had it on my Nissan I only used it for queueing traffic as it was easier than moving my foot to different pedals to go and stop all the time - because it didn't have auto cruise control for queues.
Just taken delivery of our second id3. Last one did us 4 years of hassle free motoring.
This one has the 77kw battery and a few more toys. Can’t wait to take it for a proper drive (it’s ‘officially’ MrsL’s car so I haven’t had a go yet). 
^^ looks very smart in that colour 👍
In other news I've discovered the limitations of adaptive cruise control - if the road is a bit gently winding
I don't have EV, but i do have ACC in a Toyota hybrid. I'm sure it says, somewhere in the booklet or when you enable it via the button, words to the effect of "Only use this feature on the motorway" - presumably for just the reason you describe of vanishing target in front.
You didn't have a quick scout beforehand?
We did, but we thought we'd be okay as it was mid-week and late evening and they have four fast chargers – Zapmap wasn't showing any as not working properly and all four were showing as free when we checked about 10 minutes before arriving.
I don't want to pile on but your Lexus sounds terrible.
Yeah, as I say, I always knew about the range issue – but the lease cost (3 months down + 24 months at <£300) made it very appealing financially compared to other similar vehicles (we need a car with a larger boot to lug horse-related stuff around).
Did it come with massive wheels and tiny tyres?
Yes! So did the kodiaq - which exacerbates bumps. Makes it look better from a design perspective but yeah.
Feels like it's under-damped to me.
I'm not gonna sweat it's an 18 month lease at good price.
- sorry I read through everyone's comments about regen (and I've had EVs for a while but this is my first with paddles for adjustment.) - but did anyone here make clear the difference between coasting and having the stiffest level of regen? It definitely doesn't coast as far when level 3 regen on.
Surely not pressing a brake/heavy regen if you can help it does give you some coasting efficiency versus letting the car constantly slow down like you do around town?
Just curious cos it kind of makes sense to me.
Did it come with massive wheels and tiny tyres?
Yes! So did the kodiaq - which exacerbates bumps. Makes it look better from a design perspective but yeah.
Feels like it's under-damped to me.
I'm not gonna sweat it's an 18 month lease at good price.
- sorry I read through everyone's comments about regen (and I've had EVs for a while but this is my first with paddles for adjustment.) - but did anyone here make clear the difference between coasting and having the stiffest level of regen? It definitely doesn't coast as far when level 3 regen on.
Surely not pressing a brake/heavy regen if you can help it does give you some coasting efficiency versus letting the car constantly slow down like you do around town?
Just curious cos it kind of makes sense to me.
I must admit I’m feeling deeply grumpy about my ev at the moment! 6 week old ID7 GTX estate (which tbh I’ve loved - it’s a fantastic car other than this issue) is currently at the end of the first week in the garage trying to find an issue which is stopping fast charging and intermittently throwing red drivetrain faults which means you can’t move the thing.
I don’t really think charging infrastructure is the problem anymore. It seems the issues are more around the vehicles and support infrastructure.
Even if you accept that stuff happens and things fail, the dealer and brand ability to deal with it is really poor. VW assist came out and don’t have the right kit to plug in and read the fault codes on this vehicle. It’s been released for over a year. VW Teesside, a big dealership have only two master technicians who can work on EV’s, and are entirely reliant on central VW technical. So they’re stuck in a cycle of VW technical telling them to do things, them doing it, sending results back, and the cycle repeats.
Grrrr. First world problems I appreciate but rubbish.
I must admit I’m feeling deeply grumpy about my ev at the moment! 6 week old ID7 GTX estate (which tbh I’ve loved - it’s a fantastic car other than this issue) is currently at the end of the first week in the garage trying to find an issue which is stopping fast charging and intermittently throwing red drivetrain faults which means you can’t move the thing.
I don’t really think charging infrastructure is the problem anymore. It seems the issues are more around the vehicles and support infrastructure.
Even if you accept that stuff happens and things fail, the dealer and brand ability to deal with it is really poor. VW assist came out and don’t have the right kit to plug in and read the fault codes on this vehicle. It’s been released for over a year. VW Teesside, a big dealership have only two master technicians who can work on EV’s, and are entirely reliant on central VW technical. So they’re stuck in a cycle of VW technical telling them to do things, them doing it, sending results back, and the cycle repeats.
Grrrr. First world problems I appreciate but rubbish.
I think you're entirely right to be cross, you go with VW over some unknown Chinese brand for the dealer network, warranty etc.
You can (somewhat) understand the dealer not being fully staffed with EV capable techs yet but VW assist not having the correct code reader is an absolute joke.
Aside from this do you have any thoughts on the car, any spec options that are must haves etc? Do you think the GTX is worth it over the regular models?
Re the dealers I’d have more sympathy if this weren’t the 4/5th ID and they were fairly deep in to the electric roll out!
So the car is fantastic. I’ve consistently averaged 3.5 m/kwh with no careful driving whatsoever, even when 4 up with a full boot on the motorway at 75. It’s a 300+ mile real world motorway car even in GTX
GTX spec is lovely, super comfy seats, the ventilation is something I never knew I needed but love. HUD is remarkably useful and the sound system is really solid. The sat nav is excellent
It makes the whole thing even more irritating as I really like the car. It’s genuinely brilliant.
Surely not pressing a brake/heavy regen if you can help it does give you some coasting efficiency versus letting the car constantly slow down like you do around town?
Yes, of course - if you slow down and speed back up all the time you will use more energy than if you drive at constant speed. But the point is if you drive the same way i.e. slow down at the same rate at the same points, it makes no difference if you use regen 0 and press the brake pedal lightly or if you use regen 3 and don't press the brake pedal. At least, in theory - I can't confirm if the brakes aren't used slightly but I really don't think they are, at least in my car. If I turn off the car and press the pedal, it feels exactly the same as if the car's on which makes me think the first part of the pedal travel is just against a spring, so that it's not activating the hydraulic brakes. Press a bit more and you feel the hydraulic resistance just like an ICE.
Even if you accept that stuff happens and things fail, the dealer and brand ability to deal with it is really poor.
Agree. It seems many manufacturers have botched this with stories of clueless dealers all over the place. My local Hyundai couldn't work out what my problem was - they had to get someone from central office to look at it (which to be fair they did in a few days and correctly diagnosed it). However, it was a faulty brake module, which I'd have thought would have been obviously indicated with a code.
Looking at buying an EV at long last
40KwH leaf - 2020-2021 <10k miles C~£9k
Nipped through to Dundee today as there were no leafs in Aberdeen short of new ones or having one delivered from cinch etc.
Wanted mum to at least sit in and have a play.
We looked at a few. A tekna first of all. Then an acenta. - one of the <10kmile 9k cars .... Mum very quickly established she wanted a tekna (dad almost always bought high spec ex demos )
The tekna at nissan dealer was out of budget but 2.5k or .....25%....
Bit of digging and I found an unprepped off brand trade in at a local mg franchise - 2021 40kw tekna + limited with all the toys and the full Bose sound system. Battery showing the full 12 bar health in a grey with blue trim with 25k miles for £9800
The vauxhall just felt like it wasn't very well screwed together by comparison. The UI was clunky and it just didn't t feel like it was going to be a good car - no doubt it's the more technically advanced car but this is a car that's going to do 10-15 miles -with 50 miles once or twice a year. Mum just got her bus pass and plans to use that for long trips she doesn't like driving at the best of times.
Pick up the nissan next week after the get the windscreen changed to mums prescription.
@trail_rat, we've come round to liking our EV - which is a LEAF. Gen 2. larger battery for getting to central belt. First few journeys 2 years ago were pants, but coverage of charge points has upped and especially Broxden. Some bits are lower than I'd like, we have n-connecta which is lower spec than tekna. I think we may well get another, now - as will come with CCS so can plug into Teslas.
Get a ChargePlace Scotland card, and electro verse too.
You (and your mum) won't regret it I think. The Leaf is by far the most reliable EV ever made and as I found recently shopping for a replacement, has more or the same features as many much more costly cars out there now. Mine (Tekna 24KWH) is 11 years old and has 100k - unfortunately the puny suspension is now beginning to feel the weight of those miles and extra weight of the batteries so its starting to cost me but before 100k it was literally cost free apart from tyres which the solid rear axle eats.