MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The economic damage from Covid19 is looking dire and clusters and second 'waves' are already appearing. The worst case scenario for winter 2020 needs attention (unless you're actually running the country it seems).
We know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.
Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane? What's up with people? Is it just ignorance?
We know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.
non of those things caused the virus
Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane? What’s up with people? Is it just ignorance?
Please, O wise one, give us the solution.
There has been widespread coverage of wet markets and continued encroachment into previously uninhabited areas - both of which narrow the divide between humans and wild animals.
The divide between humans and wild animals seemed pretty thin anyway judging peoples behaviour post lockdown!
both of which narrow the divide between humans and wild animals.
Tried bivvying?
I'll assume that was an attempt at humour; you're the bivvying expert, not me.
If it wasn't, here's some reading for you https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/destroyed-habitat-creates-the-perfect-conditions-for-coronavirus-to-emerge/
I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture
Oddly enough there's a funny reason for that, and it's because you just made it up and it doesn't exist outside of your head. L'Oreal has more robust science.
Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane?
Probably not, but you're in the minority because most people hopefully understand that viruses aren't "caused" any more than sparrows are.
Is it just ignorance?
... Well.
fatmountain - you do realise that even if we immediately stop intensive farming anywhere in the world, insist on people living only in existing cities, have some sort of global embargo on natural habitat loss, and close all the wet markets - this would have zero impact on the risk of Covid-19 to the UK from a second wave in Winter 2020...
Please, O wise one, give us the solution.
The meat eaters are still in denial.
https://www.surgeactivism.org/covid19
https://youtu.be/C6vMNNYnGkY
fatmountain
MemberWe know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.
you just made that up.
Sorry, were you calling your own opening post the definition of stupidity as I would agree with that if you were.
The fact a virus moved from animal to human can happen in many scenarios. Wet markets with 'stranger' species are not helpful as they may have a higher chance of coming into viruses that humans haven't had as much close exposure to but it could in theory happen from someone in UK catching something from their chicken, from their cat, from any other animal they own that has a virus that has never spread across to humans before.
Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane?
Yes.
4/10
Someone's day isn't going to plan!
All the issues in the OP's post are things that need addressing, but nothing to do with Covid from what I've read.
widespread coverage of wet markets
You are aware that Borough Market is also a wet market?
You are aware that Borough Market is also a wet market?
Technically, yes.... in that it sells "perishable goods", but it's really the live-animal and slaughtering aspect that's problematic. Haven't been to Borough market for a while.... but hopefully it hasn't changed THAT much.
The next virus from China will probably arrive via Huawei...
For me the original post does raise an issue for me.
That of our Westminster politicians not articulating thier vision of the world they would like to see. I don't hear enough 'big picture' of the society and environment we live in.
I do hear other leaders and politicians in the UK, particularly Wales and Scotland, and leaders around the world, particularly some in Europe, manage to have a personal and party view on these big issues. This then informs thier actions some more.
In Westminster at the moment we seen to play reactionary politics,shy away from treating the population like adults and avoid the difficult long term decisions, favouring smoke, mirrors and personal gain.
I do think at a global environmental issues level, the connection of the OP tried to make is reflected in a personal, values-led attitude of our politicians.
But like Brexshit, or politicians are happy to ignore reality and make hay for themselves before the sun sets.
Please, O wise one, give us the solution
The virus IS the solution
OP is being unfairly criticised. There is considerable concern in scientific journals that as habitats are lost and the climate changes, humans and animals will be interacting in greater numbers and locations/species. This will increase the Opportunity for virus transmission between species.
I don't think it's a controversial opinion. I've read it in a few journals lately.
I reckon the definition of stupidity is a govt that allows transport from infected countries to come in without checks, and allowing mass events like Cheltenham to occur.
This will increase the Opportunity for virus transmission between species.
Contribute yes, cause no.
If you look at any animal population on this planet, rabbits, mice etc once they become too populous / overcrowded diseases come along to put them back in check.
We are no different. As I said above the virus is the solution.
Might be just a bit simplistic to compare say myxomatosis with Covid
Might be just a bit simplistic to compare say myxomatosis with Covid
Not really, high rabbit population pushes R above 1. High human population pushes R above 1. Same thing. Novel viruses/diseases pop up all the time. If Covid had come along in Stone Age times it would have likely fizzled out in wuhan after infecting a few dozen people in an isolated settlement. Same virus in the 21st century travels around the world like wild fire infecting millions.
The natural world is full of feedback mechanisms. This is one of them.
No it isn't.
It's a virus. Doing what they do. It's not tactical; it's just living it's best life and getting on in the world.
Anyway, isn't Scientific American an oxymoron?
If Covid had come along in Stone Age times it would have likely fizzled out in wuhan after infecting a few dozen people in an isolated settlement.
Not sure that would be right. I believe measles, tuberculosis, smallpox and all sorts of other nasties are thought to have crossed from animals to humans in pre-history and didn't fizzle out.
intensive farming and agriculture
Now I dislike (and don’t support) intensive animal-farming for a number of reasons. But it didn’t ‘cause’ CV19
SARS-CoV-2 appears to have originated in bats, and possibly moved to humans via an intermediate host animal. Bats may also have been the original hosts for outbreaks that infected humans via civets in 2003 and camels in 2012.
While these coronaviruses originated in animals, not one of these species is associated with “factory farming.” That makes it hard to follow the logic that farmed animals, rather than wildlife, resulted in the current pandemic. Animals, including pets, sometimes carry harmful germs that can spread to people. But studies show that the majority of emerging zoonotic diseases originate in wildlife.
And as an animal scientist, I have seen solid evidence that biosecurity practices associated with commercial animal agriculture decrease the risk of disease. While these practices – vaccination, physical distancing and preventing contact with wildlife - may not align with popular ideas of “naturalness,” they make livestock operations safer for both animals and humans
https://theconversation.com/why-its-wrong-to-blame-livestock-farms-for-coronavirus-137055
But is it that simple?
A 2004 joint consultation of the World Health Organisation (WHO), Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations (FAO) and World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE, the world’s leading veterinary authority), concluded that “anthropogenic factors such as agricultural expansion and intensification to meet the increasing demand for animal protein” are one of the major drivers of zoonotic disease emergence.
According to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), an estimated 80 per cent of all antibiotics produced is sold to livestock farms, and a 2019 study documents how the growing demand for animal protein resulted in a tripling of the occurrence of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing bacteria in livestock between 2000 and 2018.
In the US, a person dies every 15 minutes because of an infection that antibiotics can no longer treat effectively, a total of 35,000 deaths per year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), antibiotic resistance is “one of the world’s most pressing public health problems,” and other experts predict that at the current rate, more people will die of diseases caused by antibiotic-resistant bacteria than of cancer by 2050.
https://www.lifegate.com/factory-farming-epidemics-coronavirus
Your other claim:
reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.
I read
Experts have raised concerns about wildlife markets in China and other countries where many different kinds of live animals are kept in cramped cages for purchase and slaughter.
This kind of proximity between people and wildlife (and sometimes captive-bred animals) carries huge disease risks. Infectious diseases cause about a quarter of human deaths. Of these deaths, almost 60% are zoonotic in origin. Of the zoonoses, more than 70% are from wildlife.
Destroying Habitats Increases Disease Risk
The wildlife trade isn’t the only problem. As humans increasingly enter and destroy pristine places where animals live, we increase disease risk.As our climate changes, wildlife moving to new habitat will occur in unique combinations, risking further spillover events. And as the human population grows, increasing encounters between people and wildlife will escalate the danger. In the last 40 years, the worst human pandemics and epidemics — HIV, SARS, avian flu, swine flu, Ebola virus and Zika virus — all stemmed from trading in and consuming animals and destroying their habitat.
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/wildlife-exploitation-and-pandemic-risk/index.html
Lots to discuss but, you know...humans generally aren’t forward-planners and we distrust just about everything except gut-instinct and ‘sale’ signs. We reap what we sow but it’s usually too late by the time we learn that even hindsight is only 20/20 for those without myopia.
I thought this was going to be a thread about Chris Grayling
The natural world is full of feedback mechanisms. This is one of them.
Not really.
lots of emerging infectious diseases come from when humans, livestock and wildlife get squeezed in together and they can jump. Like on pacific islands after a storm when everyone is stood on the dry bit.
Anyway, isn’t Scientific American an oxymoron?
It might seem that way in the Trump era but a quick look at the amount of scientific research done in the US should give a better picture.
i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.
oh dear - that is not how viruses "jump species"
So this virus began with bats or perhaps pangolins. Neither of which us Brits are that bothered with. But what if a new disease used a cat / dog / rabbit <insert favourite pet here> vector? Would we all be calling for the abolition of pet ownership?
Not really.
The world as we know it only exists because of feedback loops, carefully keeping everything in equilibrium without it there would not be the diversity we have today.
You’d also be dead without it. Your heart rate, blood sugar, temperature, blood pressure, salt levels etc are all regulated by feedback loops.
Would we all be calling for the abolition of pet ownership?
Can we do it pre-emptively?
Can we do it pre-emptively?
Only if I’m allowed to cull feral children.
Its ingrained in our culture that disease is a just moral punishment. And when new disease occurs we question the moral fibre of the first victims and their culture - what have they done to deserve this?
A virus absolutely doesn't care - viruses and bacteria aren't reprimanding us for the practices of food markets in china, French people in Italy, Homosexuals in New York
^ biodiversity is like Jenga, except we most often remove blocks unintentionally
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog30/node/398
We’re entering a new era where the average human gives a lot less thought and action to the health of the bee population than to the more immediate concerns of what’s on Netflix or trending as a meme/celeb etc?
Discuss
A virus absolutely doesn’t care – viruses and bacteria aren’t reprimanding us for the practices of food markets in china
^ This is no doubt true, but could be equally misleading in terms of risk-assessment. We modern humans aren’t particularly (philosophically) holistic so although we anthropomorphise and imagine all kinds of ‘supernatural forces’ at work keeping checks and balances, we often fail to recognise the parable. Baby with bathwater and all that. It seems that we stubbornly (egotistically?) lurch from superstition to a kind of fatalistic ‘rational’ nihilism with no resting place between.
The sheer volume of people passing through and working in the markets and the “suboptimal hygienic conditions inherently represent an increased risk for amplification of virus.” The humid, chilled air at markets may provide an environment in which viruses thrive.
So no, not literally ‘reprimanded‘. But a smack is a smack.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/source-beijing-s-big-new-covid-19-outbreak-still-mystery
So this virus began with bats or perhaps pangolins. Neither of which us Brits are that bothered with. But what if a new disease used a cat / dog / rabbit <insert favourite pet here> vector? Would we all be calling for the abolition of pet ownership?
We don't actually know. Bats and Pangolins are a guess. I've had bats in my attic for the past decade - just as likely a point for a species jump in a disease any.
We focused on the Bat / Pangolin theory at an early stage because the level of community infection wasn't really understood and it was assumed that proximity to animals was the principle cause of infection. It was assumed that because the first cases were identified within a market that the disease was passing between animals and humans there. The rate of asymptomatic infection and transmission wasn't understood so it wasn't a consideration that someone perfectly well could have walked into and around that market - infected swathes of people and left - weeks before anyone fell ill.
C-19 seems to jump between species very easily - if you get c-19 the chances are your pet dog or cat will get it too - theres nothing to prove of disprove what species jump resulted in the first infections amongst humans. Early in the arrival of C-19 in New York a tiger in the zoo was diagnosed with it. Now.... I'm no David Attenborough but I'm pretty sure tigers and zoo keepers are better at the whole social distancing thing than most people - so that species jump happened very easily indeed.
Where can I find these fact-free worldviews? Can you buy them from Amazon? I've had enough of mine.
the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture,
eh, not so much. But even if it did, removing agriculture in the interests of preventing some possible virus seems... difficult
Last I heard (and I'll admit my attention has been drifting lately) was that the original timeline (CV19 "Originating" somewhere in Wuhan province Circa Oct/Nov 2019?) is under question as a couple of European cities have reported finding traces in Sewage samples taken as far back as Feb/March 2019?...
I don't think the question of how the Virus came to be is being ignored as such I just don't think the evidence gathering/analysis is yet complete. It's being worked on around the world, as part of the efforts to understand and it and in turn devise more effective treatments.
I think the OP is guilty (as are many) of ascribing their own pet issues as part of the "cause" for CV19. Perhaps it's better not to engage in heavily biased speculation at this point, and concentrate instead on managing the current situation.
All any mainstream meeja questioning/political "attention" of the topic will achieve right now, is unnecessary pressure on those doing the investigative science to "Provide answers" and not necessarily correct answers... Just let them work.
I think the OP is guilty (as are many) of ascribing their own pet issues as part of the “cause” for CV19.
Such as thinly veiled racism. It's come from those "dirty" Chinese who were eating bats, remember. Any opportunity. Meanwhile, Trumpalumpa insists on calling it "the Chinese virus" and his supporters argue that "it comes from China, so what's the problem?" whilst neatly ignoring the fact that it has an official name and it's not that so it rather draws into question your motives for not using it.
(I'm probably going to regret writing that, no doubt it'll be taken out of context and splashed all over a certain someone's Twitter account presenting it as my opinion and asserting I'm saying the complete opposite of what I've just said, but hey ho.)
C-19 seems to jump between species very easily – if you get c-19 the chances are your pet dog or cat will get it too
That being the case, is there not a risk that your cat can go out, catch cat aids COV19 and bring it back into the house to infect everyone else?
Should I stop licking my cat?
Wow, that post is real a low point, even by your standards Couger.
I don’t think the question of how the Virus came to be is being ignored as such I just don’t think the evidence gathering/analysis is yet complete. It’s being worked on around the world, as part of the efforts to understand and it and in turn devise more effective treatments.
SARS, MERS, Avian Flu, Swine flu, BSE, Ebola, etc. etc, I don't think I'm projecting at all. Covid is a warning shot but it seems that no one wants to listen.
"Pandemics such as coronavirus are the result of humanity’s destruction of nature, according to leaders at the UN, WHO and WWF International, and the world has been ignoring this stark reality for decades.
We have seen many diseases emerge over the years, such as Zika, Aids, Sars and Ebola and they all originated from animal populations under conditions of severe environmental pressures,” said Elizabeth Maruma Mrema, head of the UN convention on biological diversity
"Coronavirus is a warning to us to mend our broken relationship with nature". Marco Lambertini is director general of WWF International
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/17/coronavirus-warning-broken-relationship-nature
"Coronavirus: world treating symptoms, not cause of pandemics, says UN:
The world is treating the health and economic symptoms of the coronavirus pandemic but not the environmental cause, according to the authors of a UN report. As a result, a steady stream of diseases can be expected to jump from animals to humans in coming years, they say.
The number of such “zoonotic” epidemics is rising, from Ebola to Sars to West Nile virus and Rift Valley fever, with the root cause being the destruction of nature by humans and the growing demand for meat, the report says."
"'We did it to ourselves': scientist says intrusion into nature led to pandemic:
The vast illegal wildlife trade and humanity’s excessive intrusion into nature is to blame for the coronavirus pandemic, according to a leading US scientist who says “this is not nature’s revenge, we did it to ourselves”.
Scientists are discovering two to four new viruses are created every year as a result of human infringement on the natural world, and any one of those could turn into a pandemic, according to Thomas Lovejoy, who coined the term “biological diversity” in 1980 and is often referred to as the godfather of biodiversity."
"Promiscuous treatment of nature' will lead to more pandemics – scientists:
Humanity’s “promiscuous treatment of nature” needs to change or there will be more deadly pandemics such as Covid-19, warn scientists who have analysed the link between viruses, wildlife and habitat destruction."
"Agriculture and overuse greater threats to wildlife than climate change – study:
It found that 6,241 (72%) of the studied species were affected by overexploitation – logging, hunting, fishing or gathering species from the wild at rates that cannot be compensated for by reproduction or regrowth."
The adjustments we have to make to our lifestyles would not be painful, yet if we do not, the consequences could be fatal. I just don't get it. But it seems people don't know and don't want to know.
I don’t think I’m projecting at all
But then post the views of biodiversity and agriculture experts? Who no doubt have been campaigning to curtail intensive agriculture for years.
I'm not saying they've written isn't true, it might be - but when discussing the origins of a virus, "scientist" isn't really a helpful measure of a persons expertise. The only person who's option counts is an epidemiologist. My understanding is that we don't really have any idea where this new virus has come from yet, or how it jumped species - so anybody that writes a report saying they do, warrants scrutiny re: their qualifications and motivation.
Heard somebody on tv yesterday give oxygen to the "made in a lab" theory ffs. And given the clusters we are seeing in meatpacking plants, it's possible that the wet market in Wuhan wasn't actually the primary source.... just a cluster of cases.
I happen to agree with you, I think we need to have a much wider discussion about how to address the issue of emerging viruses at their source. But the time to do that is when we know what the source is.
But then post the views of biodiversity and agriculture experts?
An epidemiologist will tell you how the virus 'jumped' from one species to another. Biodiversity and agricultural experts will tell you why. I think we desperately need to listen to both.