Yep on the Covid applications auto installing Facebook posts - *really* _ this gets reposted without critical thinking, a quick check and yep its not really true - but after Cummings, the government and publicity about NHSX, Track and Trace, Google and Apple, its a plausible post.
Has the swear filter broken??
That isn't and has never been in the filter.
We are talking about allowing an app to scan and connect to a BLE peripheral in the background.
You might be.
Someone on Twitter has suggested we might have a beer ordering app in place before we have a C19 track and trace app. Sounds good to me... 😉
Ask yourself this.
Google and Apple - combined the OS creators of pretty much every still-supported smartphone handset in the world - have collaborated to come up with a method of providing anonymised data in a consistent and standardised way to the designated app of every state leader in the world.
In the middle of a global emergency where speed of response is critical, the UK instead chose to commission AI experts to write an app from scratch using unproven ideas which bypassed G/A's distributed model and would collate all this data (allegedly) anonymously in a centralised database that they'd have 100% unrestricted access to.
Why?
beer ordering app - was already in place for likes of Wetherspoons I think.
mate was involved in a remote ordering app previously, which had only partial uptake - if it can be adapted for pubs and cafes, could be on to a winner!
Why?
There is always "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
GCHQ has had mobile phone tracking and tracing since before the Omagh bombings, so it's not that. Maybe they don't want people to know how good it is.
There is always “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”.
Hanlon's Razor. I'd be more inclined to believe that if they didn't have previous. Lots and lots and lots of previous.
In the middle of a global emergency where speed of response is critical, the UK instead chose to commission AI experts to write an app from scratch using unproven ideas which bypassed G/A’s distributed model and would collate all this data (allegedly) anonymously in a centralised database that they’d have 100% unrestricted access to.
Why?
Because the government are crap at doing their job. See also every other aspect of managing the Coronovirus pandemic.
Jamze
SubscriberYou’re mandated to use their distributed design and contact detection algorithm (given any other approach won’t work),
That's not being "mandated", that's just how you work with an existing product. It's like saying your car manufacturer mandates what fuels you can use. Or, if you're Matt Hancock, filling your car with pepsi max then blaming Toyota for not being more supportive of your cola-car plans.
French app has sent a total of 14 notifications in three weeks:
https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/23/french-contact-tracing-app-stopcovid-has-been-activated-1-8-million-times-but-only-sent-14-notifications/
Or, if you’re Matt Hancock, filling your car with pepsi max then blaming Toyota for not being more supportive of your cola-car plans.
That gave me a laugh, thanks for that.
Only 68 StopCovid users have declared that they’ve been diagnosed COVID-19-positive in the app. The server received 205 social interactions from those 68 cases.
In the end, StopCovid has only sent 14 notifications over the past three weeks.
So about 3 interactions per infected person, seems reasonable. Also:
On the server again, each user is associated with a risk score. If it goes above a certain threshold, the user receives a notification. The app then recommends you get tested and follow official instructions.
I guess not every fleeting bluetooth contact is deemed infectable.
But... 1.9million using the app out of 60 million odd, how many contacts with app-less people were there?
But… 1.9million using the app out of 60 million odd, how many contacts with app-less people were there?
It’s one of the elephants in the room with ‘relying’ On an app.
I Think you’ve got to do a ‘tie in’ say a weekly/ Daily lottery to entice people to want to use it, give prizes out.
Perhaps have more than one app, say a football one all doing the tracking but providing something useful,a version For each of the Countries favourite interests.
Having a working app is one thing but having one out there in large enough numbers to be effective....now that’s hard.
Transmission is much, much higher in enclosed spaces, you just need to get the people in these places
Halfcock was halfway there when he said you'd have to leave contact details at door of pub.
Instead only allow entry if you've downloaded app, same for churches, public transport, hospitals, offices, swingers clubs & other high risk venues
Maybe I need a tinfoil hat but there is no way on earth I would use the UK governments covid app and I have serious reservations about using any app.
Wow 3 weeks without the a word but now a little sky story.
Unlike almost any country in the world, the NHSX app wouldn't send out alerts based on a positive test, but on reports of symptoms made by users.
Part of the reason was a desire for epidemiological data. But just as important, according to three NHSX advisers, was the fact that the English testing system couldn't deliver results or data fast enough to make the app work effectively.
Now being reported that the track and trace system didn't carry out the legally compulsory data impact assessment and hence is essentially unlawful.
While I generally subscribe to the position that when there's an option between a conspiracy or a simple cock-up.......on a matter such as this it's pretty inconceivable to me that the people in charge weren't aware. It seems that the devolved nations managed it. And now the Gov (Williamson in this case) is defending it as having to be set up at speed and 'you're not advocating we get rid of it are you?'
Total incompetence or untrustworthy. What a menu of choices.
It may not be lawful but at least it works
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1285106458078715904?s=19
It's finally out.
For those worried about installing it, I'd hope the original app fiasco would encourage you to believe that this version doesn't have issues. The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others' sake.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.nhs.covid19.production
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1520427663
The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others’ sake.
Its nothing like vaccinating your children then. Vaccinating your children provides them with a direct benefit, and with sufficient numbers provides a degree of protection to those who aren't/can't vaccinate.
Interestingly when Scotland launched its app a few weeks ago they said even 15-20% uptake would be enough to have some benefit.
ministers failed to carry out privacy assessment, as required by GDPR laws.
I mean its almost like the bloke in charge is known to not care about details... aka boris
I can't make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.
So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it's not GPS just BT location?
Like a good freedom loving citizen, I won't be installing it...
I can’t make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.
This is me.
But right now I’m not sure I will.
I’m going to give it a week or 2 to see if there are any horror stories before making a final decision
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
I've uninstalled I think I'll give it a week or two let them iron out the kinks.
I installed the Scottish Version a couple of weeks ago - no noticeable effect on battery life (kept Bluetooth on all the time anyway) and unsurprisingly as I work from home and only really go out to walk the dog or go to remote places, it hasn't had the occasion to ping me.
The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it's effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think "I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I'll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do"
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
It would be pretty useless if there was zero testing, but that's not the situation. Over 200k tests yesterday. Turnaround time for test results is also important.
It gives a risk level for the area you are in. I'm currently in a 'medium' risk area (or adjacent to one).
The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more...
I'm not hugely worried by it as I don't go anywhere....
QQ for those who are sceptical of the app. Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov' know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?
So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it’s not GPS just BT location?
Bluetooth Low Energy requires location permissions on Android, because it can be used to identify someone's location with great precision. Anything that needs access to Bluetooth services will need to request this permission.
I can think of bigger things to be worried about. The sort of person who thinks the Government is going to be tracking them with a Covid-19 app is unlikely to self-isolate if required, wear a mask, or have a vaccine.
*** it's taken them six months to get this app out in its current basic form. If they want to track your location there are better ways that already exist.
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Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov’ know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?
Amongst other things they can direct a social media blitz shouting "vote Leave" at you at a time when they know you are befuddled by drink and likely to make a poor decision.
I'm not worried about the BT location information per se. As others on here have commented I'm sure Google have loads on me everytime I use navigation on maps (yes I have disabled that little known setting where it logs all your journeys). I was worried about the battery life really but BT is always on so I guess it don't matter.
Lad and I gave downloaded it. Be interested to see how many of his fellow college students have.
Even with my mental health wobbles, paranoia about this app hasn't even occurred to me.
Has the accuracy been confirmed yet?
For example, lets say I go to the pub twice.
One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.
Whilst I know it do't be able to work out ho we're sat, will it know if we're inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment
Yes. It may also be that it would help them prioritise testing, either in terms of who or where effort is directed towards, but at the most basic level it says "you are higher risk of having covid, so don't mingle".
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
It won't tell them infection rates, but it might give some useful clues on "exposure rates", ie. how many people each user is exposed to, and if that is changing dramatically.
The Scottish one seemed to present me with a summary of how many potential exposures I had has in the past week (its a shame that isn't a nice dashboard since I think it might encourage people to avoid exposure!). In an ideal world it would not only tell me how many potential exposures but have some sort of score about how many potentials they have. If the only people I see are cautious elderly relatives who rarely interact with others my risk is radically different from seeing the same number of people but where those people are on and off public transport, pub, and other gatherings...
Whilst I know it do’t be able to work out ho we’re sat, will it know if we’re inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?
No it will have no idea if you are indoors or outdoors. Its not clear how robust any of the systems are at estimating distance. There are two many variables. Phone model, orientation, potentially reflective materials, people in the way, inside a bag, etc. Its not intended to be a magic tool - its a possible way of capturing people who might have been in your infective zone for quite a long time (15 mins).
One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.
This is true. But in either scenario, you should be isolating to stop yourself passing it on. If anything... if the app was able to accurately tell you which way you were facing, and if you were just 1m+ or over 2m apart, then that could be a bad thing as people may just discount encounters that their 'common sense' told them were low risk... the 2m rule isn't magic, it's just lowering the risk of transmission, not removing it. If you spent a decent amount of time sat near someone with the virus, you could be a carrier now. Be safe, don't take it work (or another pub).
The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it’s effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think “I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do”
This, very much this.
I’ve downloaded it.
I actually trust our government slightly more than I do Mark Zuckerberg, which is really saying something.
I'm gonna DL it, despite some misgivings.
I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate
But the same goes for giving your details to the pub/restaurant. They'll be people leaving false details to avoid being contacted. No system that isn't like something from 1984 will stop the selfish from spreading the virus if they want to avoid or work around the help given to them to avoid doing so.
The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more…
This.
I've downloaded it, I'm not sure how accurate or helpful it'll be but they'll only be able to make the app better, more accurate and more useful if people use it. If it drains my battery a little faster then so be it, I'm pretty sure I'm never that far from a charger. For those worried about the government tracking your location, there's much easier ways to do that within the mobile phone networks than having an NHS app on your phone.
