[Closed] The British Empire

I cant be bothered its like nailing jelly discussing with you.

It's not me that's jelly, it's the vague terms of the argument itself. I just took issue with you because you were actually countering my point with a different point. That offended my sense of logic 🙂

Some folk will tell you it was great some folk will tell you it was a form of state sponsored capitalistic genocide. [b]Pick one[/b]

Not the greatest advice for school essay! Unless you want a FAIL. Simple case of balancing good and bad points, no shock there. Then perhaps she could mention the fact that in many countries of the old empire, education still includes children using textbooks (especially when internet access in not available) and doing work "for themselves." 😉 Rather than relying on parents, friends and wiki!!! Oh, and the fact that we celebrate other empires (Greek, Roman, Ottaman, Persian) for their glories and feel embarrassed by the failures of our own. A certain lack of balance there perhaps!

I think imposing a Victorian working 8 till 6, 6 days a week and living in brick built homes culture on Australian Aboriginals went particularly well.

yes, and they learnt how to speak english, play cricket and read the bible too - at no extra charge.

i'm begining to think that the positives do outweigh the slavery and the famines and the spreading of disease pathogens and the imposition of culture and the border drawing and the asset stripping and the genocide and the............

It would have been much, much better if we'd never had the empire and let Spain and Belgium get on with it.

Everyone else would have done a better job than us.

Or there wouldn't have been ANY empires if we Europeans weren't evil imperialists.

Cos all of the subjugated countries were, frankly, socialist utopia's in the making, before the evil empire builders got there.

Not ONE of them would have turned bad, not ONE I tell you.

Where the [b]HELL [/b]are my hindsight glasses, when i need them....

Still can't forgive the Normans for imposing their gentry upon us. (Guillaume le) Bastards

BaronVonP7 - Member

.........................

Where the HELL are my hindsight glasses, when i need them...

probably in the same place that you left your logic. 😉

Still can't forgive the Normans for imposing their gentry upon us. (Guillaume le)Bastards

like it

Trailmonkey - No, I'm clearly not saying that. We have the benefit of hindsight.

However, it could have been the best thing to happen, ever.
It could be the ruination of us all.

We don't have the benefit of a "what if" time machine.

Thanks for the insult BTW.

lets not forget the imperial measurement system

still it seems more popular in the commonwealth than back here in blighty

i mean its obvious that there are 63360 inches in a mile or 7920 inches in a furlong
or 112 pounds in a hundredweight

Well, I can't claim to be surprized.
🙄

As others have pointed out, for Example, Queen Elizabeth the first.
Could not have foreseen how issuing charters to privateers, would eventually lead to Empire as the British Empire turned out to be.

Its a pity that people did, unquestionably, suffer during the time of the British Empire, but whos to say that they wouldn't have anyway.

Which raises another issue.
Were the British the only people spreading / growing Empire ?.
No.
So, might we consider the fate of those we subjugated.
Had they been colonized by say, the Russians, the Japanese ?, to name a couple of rival Imperial entities with a hunger for expansion, in centurys gone by.

Lets also not overlook, that while the Slave trade was doing fine and dandy before the Brits arrived and invested.
It was us, who would in the end crack down on the trade, outlaw slave trading within our colonies and the Empire and enforce an anti slave trade policy.
Sometimes you have to make a mistake, before you know you've made it.
You might believe that its the easiest thing in the world to know that having and trading in [i]Slaves[/i] is compeltely wrong.
Obviously, it is a terrible thing to do.
But them were different times.

Another matter which may seem insignificant to anyone wanting to dish the Empire.
Was the ritual burning of the Wife of a man on his funeral pyre.
A horrific practice, which British imperialism fought against and outlawed.
Yeah, there was resistance to us wanting to stop all that.
But I'm gald that in the entire history of Mankind.
It was a bunch of brits who rocked up and stopped that.

Its swings and round-abouts.
I did look forward to the Paxman program, air'd not too long ago.
But in his opening scene, first episode, he went on about how the sun never set and the blood never dried.
At that point I switched off.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
And you don't want to go hungry.
Generally, in them days.
Either you had an Empire, or you were subjugated.
People weren't just gonna leave you alone.
So what were our ancestors going to do ?.

If we had our time again, would we choose to do it as it was ?.
I'd like to think not.
However, who we are as a nation today, has been greatly influenced by our past.
So, if today we would run an Empire, in the form of our previous one.
Then I believe we'd do so in a better fashion, for being mindfull of the mistakes we made in the past.
If we can learn from our mistakes.
Then that mistake was, if it had to happen, a good thing.

BaronVonP7, no insult intended - apologies, should have added winky face, in fact i'll go back and do it.

i still however don't get your argument unless you're going to argue that we had no idea that slavery, genocide, cultural imposition, border drawing, asset stripping would actually be bad things until we had the benefit of hindsight.

in which case i understand your logic entirely but just happen to think that you're talking gibberish - 😉

I just took issue with you because you were actually countering my point with a different point. That offended my sense of logic

Not the greatest advice for school essay! Unless you want a FAIL. Simple case of balancing good and bad points, no shock there.

If i was to ask you about the Nazis, rape or racism and whether it was good or bad you would presumably tell me the pros of all of it then the cons and then a conclusion in just a few sentences.

to do a survey on the British Empire. No more than a few sentences - not a diatribe - was it a good or bad thing and why?

probably in the same place that you left your logic.

... the decisions made were in the context of the time (again, I'm not daring to prescribing "right" and "wrong") but we fall in to the trap of applying the "now" to "then" - what appears abhorrent to us now seemed like good sense and often righteous benevolence at the time.

Likewise, in the future, we will be judged and surely be found wanting.

[i]but we fall in to the trap of applying the "now" to "then"[/i]

Only some of [i]us[/i].

"Only some of us." - Yes, sorry! 😳

Oh dear....

Let's please refer to the OP and to Muddydwarf's excellent post on the first page.

Everything else appears to be born from individual prejudices, beliefs, here-say and dodgy stats. Not really required for a school essay - you might as well reference Wikipedia

The British Empire existed. As did all the previous 'empires'. As will all the future one's. The big difference with how the British Empire came about from those that were before, was that it was - as MD states quite correctly - it was an accident of trade. It did not come about through any military invasion.

And quite frankly, to publicly state 'never to forgive' is simply unforgivable... 😕

what appears abhorrent to us now seemed like good sense and often righteous benevolence at the time

You are correct that morality change sand people may have thought they were doing good when they did bad things [ exorcism and getting the devil out you to treat disease for example but this is not one of those cases

'never to forgive' is simply unforgivable

I argued with your view that it was a lot fairer - you know the one you have no evidence for. It has been exactly about the point you made and your inability/reluctance to support it.

I haven't claimed to have evidence. I think things are 'a lot' fairer than they were. Of course 'a lot' is not quantifiable. I offered examples of how much easier and more fun the lives of the average prole are in this country and perhaps continent than they were 100 or 150 years ago. That seems fairly obvious to me.

You then went on to talk about global wealth distrubution at the present day. Well your argument is pretty empty without any sort of comparison to how things were a century ago, isn't it?

I have £100 in my pocket. Am I richer or poorer than this time last week?

what they did not realise slavery was a bad thing and they thought they were doing some good by exploiting the shit out of the countries?

I think he's talking about stuff like westernisation of natives, and missionary work etc. Which wasn't blanket policy afaik.

Junkyard you are a great bloke but you don't come over as being terribly well read in history.

"what they did not realise slavery was a bad thing and they thought they were doing some good by exploiting the shit out of the countries?"

I think if we looked hard enough there would those that held a view that they [i]were [/i] doing nothing wrong.

We have recent evidence: the Nazi's, White supremacists, etc.

I would expect many who were complicit knew it was wrong but did it anyway, for many different reasons - again examples in Nazi Germany.

Judging something as immensely complex as the British Empire as either good or bad is not possible. Tell her teacher to stop dumbing down and draw out some of the contradictions of the government's and businesses actions.

JY, with respect, you/we are merely demonstrating confirmation bias.

IMO, this is a school essay and as such is more likely to be looking for the ability to weigh pros and cons. I talk about both sides. You read it as asking for a categorical good OR bad.

Happy to put money on the way in which the teacher meant it and as someone preparing people for exams right now, I will stick to my guns and my bias here. But the Op can makes his/her own mind up!!

Basically we raped and pillaged the world to make us richer and we did not care who we hurt in the process. we were so arrogant we actually thought we were doing good

A view perhaps - a model school answer, hardly!

[i]what they did not realise slavery was a bad thing[/i]

Something like that.
Those devious types even went to the [i][b]Good book[/b][/i] to prove that other races were fine for slavery.

You might want to consider that the views you hold are taken from a perspective, resultant of and commensurate to your education and modern day experience.

What you might also wish to consider is that Slave traders and owners, did not view their slaves as people, as they viewed themselves.
Once you realise this, it may become easier for you to understand the mistake those people made.

I want this on T - shirt oh the ironing ...you do know what unforgivable means dont you

Junkyard you are a great bloke but you don't come over as being terribly well read in history.

....Or irony 8)

Solo - Member
what they did not realise slavery was a bad thing

Something like that.
Those devious types even went to the Good book to prove that other races were fine for slavery.

Which one - Aristotle's Virtue Ethics? 😉

Let's please refer to the OP and to Muddydwarf's excellent post on the first page.

Everything else appears to be born from individual prejudices, beliefs, here-say and dodgy stats. Not really required for a school essay - you might as well reference Wikipedia

well, i've just completed an 8 month ou course on empire so i'd like to think that my opinions on the matter are based on more than prejudice. i've also quoted directly from ps and ss material so why that should constitute referencing wiki i don't know.

as for the empire being an accident of trade, this is neither here nor there, the question was, was it a good thing or a bad thing. no one has come within a whisker so far of pointing out a single positive aspect that i've been able to see and i don't recall reading much in the historiography either.

as for

And quite frankly, to publicly state 'never to forgive' is simply unforgivable.

as i mentioned earlier, show a little humility.

No positive things?

What about the spread of progressive ideas and democracy? (Non-rhetorical question, not trying to make a point)

What about increasing trade and providing markets for export goods for the colonies?

trailmonkey - Member
well, i've just completed an 8 month ou course on empire

Did you pass? 😉

No positive things?

What about the spread of progressive ideas and democracy? (Non-rhetorical question, not trying to make a point)

What about increasing trade and providing markets for export goods for the colonies?

gosh yes, what would the planet do without the benefit of our worldviews.

Did you pass?

distinction on ocas awaiting ema result 8)

Excellent (ps I was only joking!!)

OOI - what is ocas?

Trailmonkey - how would you define positive and negatives? Is there a context to your view, say: social, political, trade etc. - genuine question - I was at school a long time ago.

gosh yes, what would the planet do without the benefit of our worldviews.

No need for sarcasm. Let's have some proper discussion.

Let's have some proper discussion.

as i mentioned earlier, show a little humility.

I humbly touch my forelock in deference to your esteemed knowledge on the subject and admit that my thinly veiled sarcasm was indeed a knee jerk reaction to the shock of reading the earlier statement.

Fetches coat and withdraws to safe distance to observe...

[i]No need for sarcasm. Let's have some proper discussion.[/i]

Yes, that would be a good thing.
I agree with a lot of what you have posted.

The moralistas appear to over look that 400 years ago, the world was a much tougher, blood thirstier place in general.

I happen to also think that if you could bring a person through from then to our time and afford them the luxury of modern civilization and morality.
That they'd likely look back and regret some of the awful things that happened.

But as you point out, increasing trade, basically having a very big group of people all working with and trading with one another wasn't an entirely bad thing and especially in the case of India.
United a nation and laid down substantial infrastructure.

Let's have some proper discussion

if you want proper discussion come up with a better standpoint than......

the empire was good because it gave the world the things that we believe in.

if you really think that..........

increasing trade and providing markets for export goods for the colonies?

..........was a good thing, take a look at the effect of the markets causing mass starvation in victorian india and consider the anti charitable contributions act brought in to stop relief donations affecting the grain markets.

on top of which, who do you think might have actually benefited from exports from the colonies, british investors or the average man in sarawak ?

especially in the case of India.
United a nation

india was entirely a construction of the british empire and if you think for one moment that this created a united nation i suggest you take a minute to briefly wiki the savagely bloody partition of india in 1947.

What really fascinates me is how the environment -actual,social and historical view affects peoples decision making processes, at personal and society level - What was required for the individual or the group to think that slavery was a necessary evil/ok/right?

What has changed to ensure we don't create such an environment - have we really achieved this or are we even more culpable given that we have so many tools available (universal suffrage, available information)?

If I didn't have to work and if it didn't cost £9000 quid a year, I'd love to got to uni....

hmmmm....

[i]average man in sarawak[/i]

Whos to say that bloke would have had a job at all, were it not for trade.

Also, did he have any other career choices in the 19th century ?.
To what degree is HE responsible for how much he earns ?.

If you're upset because one man makes very little money while another accumaltes great wealth.
Well, I understand your objection.
But isn't that just one of the unpleasant facets of the Human condition ?.
As opposed to being the fault of the [b]British[/b] Empire.
Because we all know that had India been subjugated by the Japanese Empire.
Things would have all been wonderful.

what he said

especially in the case of India.

But isn't this that just one of the unpleasant facets of the Human condition ?

it is what capitalistic trade does not what humans do - though humans do try and justify it

sighs

[i]india was entirely a construction of the british empire and if you think for one moment that this created a united nation i suggest you take a minute to briefly wiki the savagely bloody partition of india in 1947[/i]

I was referring to the many squabbling little principalities the British encountered when they arrived.
In the region of what we now call India.
🙄

[i]But isn't that just one of the unpleasant facets of the Human condition ?.
As opposed to being the fault of the British Empire.
[/i]

[i]no it is capitalism we dont all need to have more than others and plenty of tribal societies are cooperative over wealth/resources.[/i]

No, it is GREED.

All humans have it.
How much of a slave to greed they allow themselves to become is a personal matter.

Can't join in now as on phone...my "never forgive, never forget" thing was kind of a joke (yeah, Bristirish Defence) about my nation's preposition towards maudlin sentimentality and bitterness.

I forgot my 🙂 😉 😐 etc.

Whos to say that bloke would have had a job at all, were it not for trade.

who's to say he wanted one.

which is what i'm trying to say here, the only argument that anyone seems to be putting forward in support of the empire is that it enabled the world to see and do us we do, as though there is something inherently right about our own worldview that the rest of the world needs to subscribew to it. then, as if that argument wasn't so incredibily flawed, some are saying that not only is it a good thing but it actually outweighed the multiple catastrophies that occurred along the way.

well, i've just completed an 8 month ou course on empire so i'd like to think that my opinions on the matter are based on more than prejudice.

That explains a lot.. It's prerequisite for any OU course to include a substantial amount of anti British retoric regardless of the subject at hand.