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Yep, Americas attitude to guns is totally crazy
BBC News - US gun laws: Judge overturns California assault weapons ban
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57368211
Bang!
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FREEDUM!
Hopefully it will be over turned. Does seem a barking mad ruling, the AR-15 is an insane weapon. I fired one at a range in the US and it just seem mad to me that anyone can have one. At least with a 9mm a bullet proof vest offers some basic protection eg for the Police etc but against an assault rifle, they don't stand any chance.
I saw that.
The fact that the judge felt a reasonable somethingion was that an AR 15 was ok for both ‘home and battle’ shows how bat sh1t crazy some of the US is..
Penal Code 30600 PC bans assault weapons and weapons that use the .50 BMG cartridge.
So you're allowed a semi auto rifle in any calibre other than .50 BMG as long as it's not on the list. For example, you are allowed a M1 Garand firing a 30-06 cartridge which seemed to be pretty effective in WW2 and the Korean war. It's only got an 8 shot magazine but reloads using clips so has a decent rate of fire.
And 30-06 is pretty similar in performance to 7.62 NATO, so a much more powerful round than 5.56 NATO.
Even the "draconian" California laws are pretty weak.
It only became properly nuts in the article a bit further down:
The banned 'assault weapons' are not bazookas, howitzers, or machine guns. Those arms are dangerous and solely useful for military purposes," the ruling said.
Well, I'm pleased the dangerous bazookas, howitzers and machine guns are off-limits.
How much does an AR15 cost?
About 700 dollars new
Well, I’m pleased the dangerous bazookas, howitzers and machine guns are off-limits.
For now, anyway 🙁
Well, I’m pleased the dangerous bazookas, howitzers and machine are are off-limits.
But how will people get rid of their verrucas?
Well, I’m pleased the dangerous bazookas, howitzers and machine are are off-limits.
Just drive or fly to Nevada (although there are still some controls, you can't just buy a howitzer at Walmart but the gun ranches have them).
Machine guns are weird in American law - they grandfathered in machine guns before 1986 so you can still possess and transfer them (with some paperwork).
Not quite sure how a sitting judge can make a statement like this, these types of weapons are not great for home use, yes they will stop any attacker, but the projectile will more than likely leave the area with enough energy to cause further damage, most rifles like this are optimal at around 200 metres or so.
It's even sadder to think that there are people out there with a gun cabinet next to their bed with this type of weapon inside, wasn't there another recent incident with a kid stealing their dads AR15 and shooting at police?
yes they will stop any attacker,
That's if you hit him, with their cardboard houses if you miss the bullet is going several blocks down the road through half a dozen homes!
It’s even sadder to think that there are people out there with a gun cabinet next to their bed with this type of weapon inside,
Sunday Times a couple of weeks back had some amazing photos of US Gun owners each with 100s of guns!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gun-loving-americans-and-their-firearms-collections-bptrwctb6
Your truly with an AR-15. Guninely terrified me if I'm honest....
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/2618/3989814267_6da7ab2fe0.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/2618/3989814267_6da7ab2fe0.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/75yQMa ]AR-15[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
That first pic is n+1 on steroids
I was going to criticise the decking but I'm more concerned at all the guns pointing at the child. Waiting for the family dog to scamper across and tread on a trigger.
You're still not allowed to own nunchuks though so the streets are safe.
The number of guns isn't an issue for me, a nutter with only one is a worse scenario, i just feel for that girl, as the bike is way too small for her!
Guninely terrified me if I’m honest….
I fired Lee Enfield .303, Bren .303, SLR (UK FN Fal 7.62) and SA80 5.56 (Bisley skill at arms, just when it was being introduced so the full version, not the cadet one) before I was 18. It wasn't scary on a range with supervision, the circular saw in woodwork was more dangerous. Always point down range, never get in front of the firing line.
What was scary was being in a bar in Nevada with my workmates after too many beers hearing them boasting about how they'd seen off intruders with their hand guns. The culture is more of a problem than the particular gun although why anyone needs an AR15 around the house defeats me. Leaking faucet? AR15 will fix it. Blocked drain? AR15.
120 guns per 100 residents! Bonkers!
Indeed. Apparently about 1/3 of Americans own a gun, so that makes it 3.6 guns per gun owner on average.
i just feel for that girl, as the bike is way too small for her!
Can't afford a decent one, all the spare cash goes on guns.
How much does an AR15 cost?
About 4k in UK- so I'm told .
It’s a totally different mindset out here compared to the the UK. Here being Texas where I am for the foreseeable. We were going from Houston to Austin and a friends friend lent us his suburban for the trip (stupidly big vehicles but that’s another thread). Loading it up and there are some loose rounds under the seats from Mikes rifle that must have fallen out of the box last time he went to his ranch to hunt. That doesn’t even raise an eyebrow when I pick them up and hand them over.
What’s really bonkers is that here in Texas the state government have decided that later this year, anyone can conceal carry without permit, license or training. It’s your rights baby! I love Texas but some of their laws are just backward! I much prefer UK gun laws.
SA80 5.56 (Bisley skill at arms, just when it was being introduced so the full version, not the cadet one)
For fact fans, the cadet version, L98A1 IIRC, was actually more powerful (higher muzzle velocity) than the 'proper' one. Reason being was the lack of gas parts to recycle the action meant all the gases went down the barrel.
That’s if you hit him, with their cardboard houses if you miss the bullet is going several blocks down the road through half a dozen homes!
As usual someone has put it to the test.
Bonkers isn’t it? I mean I actually like the idea of shooting for sport or indeed just entertainment, but the yanks are just off their trolleys.
I was in basic training when one of the other recruits let off a negligent discharge. It was effing terrifying. He got a kicking and we all got to go our change our keks. I've fired pretty much every service weapon except the Barrett and I really can't see why any civilian needs an assault rifle for home defence.
Actually found one that directly addresses the question!
Thankfully I have no interest in guns (have shot one at a clay pigeon range and didn't like it) or living in the US.
For fact fans, the cadet version, L98A1 IIRC, was actually more powerful (higher muzzle velocity) than the ‘proper’ one. Reason being was the lack of gas parts to recycle the action meant all the gases went down the barrel.
It was indeed, the L98A1 General Purpose Cadet Rifle. Manual cocking every round which, because cadets were only ever allowed to fire from the prone position, usually meant it jammed every 2-3 rounds, especially with smaller cadets who lacked the arm and shoulder strength to yank the cocking handle back fully.
As one of the senior cadets, I used to do range work helping clear stoppages and I had a Negligent Discharge once. Cleared the stoppage, pointed it downrange and pulled the trigger to clear the action, there was a round up the spout that I'd somehow missed. I absolutely shat my pants. What a massive cock up. And that was under carefully controlled conditions, rounds counted out, everything done by the book under heavy supervision. Christ only knows what most civvies are like with things like that!
Its all good... let them crack on.
Whenever they decide the lives of human beings are more important than the right to bear (fully automatic) arms it will get sorted.
At least with a 9mm a bullet proof vest offers some basic protection eg for the Police etc but against an assault rifle, they don’t stand any chance.
Depends on the calibre but the higher levels of body armour (eg military issue) is designed to be able to stop them. A lot heavier though since most use ceramic inserts to cover the key areas.
It’s even sadder to think that there are people out there with a gun cabinet next to their bed with this type of weapon inside
The really sad bit is a lot of them wont actually be in cabinets since that might slow you down when you hear someone drunk trying your door by mistake and need to put half a mag into them. You need it ready for instant access including having a round ready.
Hence why its not exactly unknown in the USA for young kids to pick up that shiny toy and then accidently shoot themselves/someone else.
You only need a musket, cap n ball revolver and a sword. Simple. Remington 1858 good enough then and good enough now. Lots of smoke gives you time to run away.
That picture of all those guns is scary as hell! Is that kid holding a P90?
Yep, Americas attitude to guns is totally crazy
Totally acceptable. Good decision for home use. Their culture.
Anything is better than nothing even a .22 caliber is better than nothing.
Your truly with an AR-15. Guninely terrified me if I’m honest….
That's the purpose. It's the equaliser.
Imagine 5 people with machetes trying to do you harm and your only friend is Mr Glock 19.
Who do you think will run first?
everything done by the book under heavy supervision
Clearly not 😁
Late on in my ccf "career" we had a Flight Sargeant who took the time to show us what to look for. He put a drill round into the breech, magazine in, and passed the weapon around for us to look inside. Bloody hell it was easy to see how to miss it. But until he did that, all the training was simply "look in there and if you see nothing, it's clear". Which is kinda crazy for something so safety critical.
anyone can conceal carry without permit, license or training.
But it's good to know they still require permits if you were to buy a fishing rod instead of a firearm. I personally think, while in most of the world its normal to not own a gun, trying to ban them in America now is like shutting the stable door when the horse is already 5 miles down the road. Can't see why assault rifles were ever deemed suitable for public sale in the first place but when they have already had over 230 mass shootings this year I can't see anyone that owns one giving it up voluntarily, especially when a lot of people see fellow Americans as the enemy because of who they voted for last year
Lets face it, its a cult. Cant believe all these people are actually living in such fear they feel they need to tool themselves up with military equipment. If I were living in such fear I'd be moving away to somewhere where I felt safer.
Having said all that, burgers are far more deadly than guns even in the US. Heart Disease kills well over ten times more people every year than guns do.
Imagine 5 people with machetes trying to do you harm
Happen often round your way?
No?
Thought not...
🙄
What was scary was being in a bar in Nevada with my workmates after too many beers hearing them boasting about how they’d seen off intruders with their hand gun
assuming they mean an actual intruder in their house not someone ‘trespassing’ on their 10000 acre ranch, that does actually give some justification to their completely mental laws and attitudes.
I can count on my hand the number of people I know IRL in the UK who have been burgled. None of them were home at the time.
I think the issue is the amendment was ratified in 1791 when arms were a bit different. 30round+ magazines and fully automatic weapons were not available in Walmart.
Most Americans say don’t mess with the constitution without getting the irony that it’s call the 2nd AMENDMENT!
I don’t see any answer, wish I did.
these types of weapons are not great for home use, yes they will stop any attacker, but the projectile will more than likely leave the area with enough energy to cause further damage, most rifles like this are optimal at around 200 metres or so.
I was going to mention that the great majority of American homes are all timber construction, so the term ‘shotgun shack’ pretty much still applies. Apart from Manhattan, and a few other cities where brick construction is common, casualties from stray rounds seems to be far too common, especially involving children.
Happen often round your way?
No?
Thought not…
The news is on daily mail rather often.
anyone can conceal carry without permit, license or training.
They need license to carry conceal but training is individual preference.
Your truly with an AR-15. Guninely terrified me if I’m honest….
That’s the purpose. It’s the equaliser.
What terrified me about it was that anyone could have one and use one on anyone else. Odds are when you're mugged in the 7-11 you won't be carrying your AR-15, you'll have a packet of crisps in one hand and a 6 pack in the other. Then someone empties a few rounds into you by accident as they hold up the store....
Or you're at an out of state music concert and some nut takes an AR-15 with a bump stock and empties magazine after magazine into the crowd from the 23rd floor of a local hotel overseeing the event.....
Odds are when you’re mugged in the 7-11 you won’t be carrying your AR-15
You can carry conceal with license. AR-15 is only for home use.
As for accidentally shot by stray you have to be very unlucky.
It's America so having guns is rather normal for some. It's their way of life.
The AR15 – perfect for home use
And an AK for special occasions?
There is no answer to America's gun issue. They needed to grasp the nettle way before automatic weapons and especially assault rifles became a major 'thing'. The US hasn't had a 'frontier' for 150+ years, they don't need militia - which is where the original need came from.
There are that many high powered weapons in circulation that the bad guys will always have access to them. Meaning people will always feel threatened and feel the need to have them too. It's ****ed.
And an AK for special occasions?
Expensive caliber so not sure when they use that.
There is an import ban on original AK so most of the new AKs are now made in America.
What gun issue? It is the norm there.
America has to be seen as the tough guy as they are Western democracy last resort.
I think hamdguns are more worrying than AR-15s. To think how many may be swinging around in purses or pockets with a round in the chamber, pointing anywhere. Then if they do get used, those rounds land all over the place - it's easy to shoot a rifle accurately, not a pistol.
Don't get me wrong, I still think owning an assault rifle is mad - just that pistols are a lot more dangerous and accident prone, and assault rifles shouldn't be the main focus.
God Damn
The news is on daily mail rather often.
A paper known for its factual, honest & unsensational reporting style.
You do realise quoting the Heil as your source of news renders your opinion pretty much worthless?
You do realise being chewkw renders your opinion pretty much worthless?
Please don’t feed the troll.
“They need license to carry conceal but training is individual preference.”
As I said Chewk, that’s due to change here in Texas:
Texas Republican leaders promised action on gun safety after the El Paso shooting. Instead, they passed permitless carry.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/06/04/texas-constitutional-carry-el-paso/
A paper known for its factual, honest & unsensational reporting style.
You do realise quoting the Heil as your source of news renders your opinion pretty much worthless?
Same news also appear on BBC website on knife attack but there are just more often on daily mail. Some are on video too. Worthless or just to ignore?
As I said Chewk, that’s due to change here in Texas:
Perhaps Texas but not every place.
And in the UK, this is what you are allowed to own, but unlike the US we'll have far more stringent laws on licensing.
And in the UK, this is what you are allowed to own, but unlike the US we’ll have far more stringent laws on licensing.
Yes, you can but too expensive.
Please don’t feed the troll.
This bears repeating.
And also straight pull as any thing semi-auto over .22LR is illegal.
The AR15, as a platform, is just a really poor choice for the U.K. market. It’s designed to be semi-auto, so making it into something that requires a bolt movement every shot ruins it for practical shooting and the action/platform itself is a poor choice for longer range accurate shooting. .223Rem is also a pretty crap choice for vermin as (I think) it is only cleared for Fox and muntjac/CWD.
If I wanted an accurate rifle for that caliber, I’d go bolt action with a longer barrel. If I wanted a vermin rifle, I’d go .243 or .308. Neither of those is good for home defence.
If I wanted a home defence weapon, I’d use a shotgun. Rifle calibre _will_ overpenetrate and can go through a lot of things before they stop.
If I wanted a rifle for battle (as much as I like the ergonomics of the AR and as much as I hate the ergonomics of the L85) I’d go for something that was in a bigger calibre, had a longer barrel and did not use direct gas impingement, something like the HK417 for example. Depending on the place I was in, I’d go AK. The ammunition is everywhere and cheap as hell.
TL;DR… America is a ****ed up place and people will buy AR’s because they can, even though they are a poor choice for both battle and home defence.
Guys I was working with in Pensylvania took me out one night shooting in one of their back yards. They all turned up with their arsenal and we shot the shit out of some targets. Got a shot of a magnum and an ar15. The guy that had bought the ar15 bought it because it looked cool and he seen it as an investment as thought they would get banned from sale soon. That was 3 years ago. Was a good night but scary to think that between 5 guys they had enough guns to do some real damage.
.223Rem is also a pretty crap choice for vermin as (I think) it is only cleared for Fox and muntjac/CWD.
.223 Rem is an excellent choice for vermin, and just as popular is the similar but slightly punchier 22-250. They are very much the choice of professional controllers- more gamekeepers use those calibres than any other. Accurate and very cheap to feed .
Legal for CWD and Muntjac in England and Wales, but in Scotland they are also lawful for use on Roe. Again, very popular amongst contractors and keepers.
The Gun Control debate in the US shut down when they decided not to do anything after Sandy Hook.
If a country isn't going to make meaningful change after 20 primary schools kids get shot then it will probably never make that change.
The Gun Control debate in the US shut down when they decided not to do anything after Sandy Hook.If a country isn’t going to make meaningful change after 20 primary schools kids get shot then it will probably never make that change.
Yeah but as @dannyh mentioned above, the only answer* now with that many guns in circulation is "more guns".
Load of kids been murdered at school? Employ some heavily armed guards.
Risk that a burglar is armed? Have more/bigger guns of your own.
Violent crime a problem? Arm the police force to the teeth.
*I know it's a bollocks argument, I'm not advocating it myself but it's "the answer" that is given every single time and you can sort of see the twisted logic that is behind it.
It's not too dissimilar to the ever-growing use of SUVs to ferry kids the half mile to school because it's too dangerous to walk because of all the big heavy vehicles around. Answer: buy a bigger, heavier vehicle to "protect" your little cherub.
That’s the purpose. It’s the equaliser.
You're thinking of Edward Woodward, or perhaps Denzel Washington.
It's not an 'equaliser' at all, it's a machine designed to kill people as efficiently as possible. That's way, Semi-Auto / Auto aside, that's why the US military use them.
Personally, I can't really believe a word the Gun lobby says when it comes to gun control, the argument has become so entrenched sense has gone completely out of the window. I'd like to say "sod them if they think it's a good idea" but what about the people who don't - do they have to accept mass shooting after mass shooting just so Billy Bob can sit in his shed, penis in one hand, AR in the other, wondered which is harder?
In that picture on the first page with all the guns on the decking, what's the second weapon to the left of the girl on the bike? It looks like some variety of LAW to me but surely it can't be?
It looks like some variety of LAW to me but surely it can’t be?
In theory you can own proper ones in some parts of the US but they are hideously expensive and do actually have some regulations making it hard to acquire. Probably not worth it for a single shot weapon like a LAW but for reloadable ones some do think its worth it.
So either they have managed that or its one which has been deactivated/fired/drill version.
Please remember that not everyone in the US is a gun nut - in fact most people aren't. I bet you get annoyed when Americans imagine every British person as being like the cast of 4 weddings and a funeral, don't you? Same thing but more damaging.
Imagine 5 people with machetes trying to do you harm
Why would they have machetes when guns are this easy to get? This is the much-overlooked issue.
Whenever they decide the lives of human beings are more important than the right to bear (fully automatic) arms it will get sorted.
No this completely misses the point. People aren't making rational evaluations of rights. That's not how people work. People are tribal above all else. Somehow gun-owning has become part of the idea of American-ness for some people so they join in and it becomes part of their identity. Add to this 'identity' the very popular idea of doing violence against those who you consider to have wronged you, and you get a huge gun violence problem.
I have lots of otherwise very reasonable and mild mannered Americans on my FB feed. The number of shared memes I see that variations on 'if you mess with me I will hurt you' is overwhelming, even from ostensibly peace loving middle aged people including women. That idea is woven into society. It's in so many well-loved films and TV shows from before about a decade ago, if you look. We were so used to it we didn't even notice.
I firmly believe that the US has already begun an inventible slide into a period of breakdown and anarchy and in the next 5-20 years will cease to exist as the country we know. I think it will break up and bits of it are going to fight over what remains. I know that a number of Americans have that view, and are taking "precautions". If iIlived in the US, I think I'd be looking to buy a gun and plenty of ammo.
If iIlived in the US, I think I’d be looking to
Emigrate to Canada
Emigrate to Canada
Too close.
Canadian joke: How do you get all the Canadians out of a lovely cool swimming pool on a really hot sunny day?
ChrisL
Full Member
In that picture on the first page with all the guns on the decking, what’s the second weapon to the left of the girl on the bike? It looks like some variety of LAW to me but surely it can’t be?
Looks like a deactivated shoulder launched munition, no yellow band on it would indicate it's deactivated.
Y'ALL QAEDA!
A good point about ammo - can have all the guns you want but no good without ammo. I bet some of these people ammo collections are even more impressive!
The US certainly has its challenges but I’m not sure it is going to decline that quickly, and this is not the first time such predictions have been made. The upheaval of the late ‘60s and early ‘70s resulted in many predictions of collapse. In fact if you read contemporary accounts it was almost a given that the US wouldn’t last much longer!
In fact if you read contemporary accounts it was almost a given that the US wouldn’t last much longer!
Oh sure, I think there are huge differences from then to now though, jobs, wealth disparity, healthcare etc but largely the Republicans weren't hell bent of holding onto to power by coercion rather than persuasion at the ballot box, and wasn't then beginning to define itself around "shared" heritage rather than ideas. There's a massive danger of the GOP sliding into Ethno-Nationalism and Authoritarianism and away from Conservatism.
The majority of people live safe relatively easy lives with jobs they need to go to. The elites are doing very well. These are not the ingredients for revolution.
Sunday Times a couple of weeks back had some amazing photos of US Gun owners each with 100s of guns!
That chubby little kid in house doorway is holding a bloody P90 for goodness sake. 1100 rounds per minute and a 50 round clip that can be changed in less that 3 seconds. WTAF!?!
They need bullet control not gun control. Every household is allowed 10 rounds per adult and you can't have more until it's proven that the last ones were used. Habeas corpus.
Ammo control is a goid idea. Only get 2 burglary attempts a year? Then you only need 10 rounds.
1100 rounds per minute and a 50 round clip that can be changed in less that 3 seconds. WTAF!?!
Its possibly the civilian semi auto variant. From a quick look P90s are post 1986 so cant be allowed under the exemption for existing full autos when the law restricting them got passed.
They need bullet control not gun control
Heard that before, keep the gun laws as they are, increase the price of ammo...
It’s not an ‘equaliser’ at all, it’s a machine designed to kill people as efficiently as possible. That’s way, Semi-Auto / Auto aside, that’s why the US military use them.
I have no problem with that especially in USA.
I like traditional stuff with bolt action and revolver. Manurhin MR73 anyone? (buy one if you can as the value will only go up)
Before Dunblane i knew a fair few gun owners,I can tell you they were all f** m**.
Before Dunblane i knew a fair few gun owners,I can tell you they were all f** m**.
I bet some of them can be so don't go near them.
My Texan cowboy friend hunts ... with bow and arrow ... and AR15 (They really love hunting wild boar and deer ... ffs! Poor animals)