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Sigh…what’s the point?
You tell me, why do you do it?
Edit: nevermind!
You’re flip-flopping. At first you were concerned about intent, apparently in agreement that Chauvin killed him, but did so accidentally. When that argument was roundly rebuffed, you’re now suggesting that he didn’t, in fact, die of suffocation, he died of an overdose? Get a grip.
You're the one who keeps bringing up intent. I dropped it after my mistake was noted regarding the intent to kill.
Subsequently, I'm nearly pointing out that the video itself isn't some slam dunk in response to some earlier poster who asserted that it was. I only entertained the possibility of another cause of death especially with it being reported that Floyd said he couldn't breath before being placed in the ground.
"I only entertained the possibility of another cause of death especially with it being reported that Floyd said he couldn’t breath before being placed in the ground."
So you are suggesting that the best way to handle someone who is saying that they can't breathe is to kneel on their neck for 9 minutes?
I guess if you saw someone drowning you'd throw them a concrete lifebuoy ring?
i scoff cake - that is such nonsense - the video shows two things clearly - an illegal restraint known to cause asphyxiation and a man suffocating
Twenty two and a half years for chauvin.
Good.
Good news that, be better I'd he serves it all.
Where do they put incarcerated officers in the US, hard to imagine its straight in with the general population? A quick Google suggests theres not many examples.
That's a good question; there can't be many ex police officers in the general prison population.
Chauvin has three things against him - police officer, responsible for manslaughter of black man, how Floyd died.
How long before trump or any of his apologists start making noise about this?
Guantanamo Bay? Could be a new lease of life for the place, bad apple cop detention centre. It might not be big enough mind...
Good. And just a quick reminder that without the video there'd have never been a trial and the original false police statement would never have been found to be a pack of lies:
"Medical Incident During Police Interaction
He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later."
responsible for manslaughter of black man
Second degree murder isn't classed as manslaughter under UK law is it? It's intentional murder but not premeditated. Premeditated murder being the worse type of murder.
Not trying to be pedantic but I don't want the seriousness of the crime to be understated. Manslaughter in the UK is applied in cases of unintentional killing, the US court ruled that this was intentional.
As I understand it.
Chuvin's sentence was based on the charge of second degree murder which is defined in the US as 'unintentional murder'.
As I understand it, a murder charge in UK court is based on the crime being premeditated.
That's why I referred to manslaughter; for accuracy, he was convicted of murder.
I didn't think that murder had to be premeditated in the UK. Just intentional. But I'm happy to be corrected.
The definition of murder in the UK is where you cause someone’s death and in doing so you intended to kill them or you intended to do them serious harm.
If you kill someone without that intent it’s likely to be manslaughter.
Unless you’re in a car of course.
Anyway, US system is different.
I just read the full sentencing report. I hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse. Incomprehensible. His sentence was extended by about half as much again as the usual maximum for second degree murder for two reasons - 1) the abuse of a position of trust and 2) the exceptional cruelty to which be subjected his victim.
I hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse. Incomprehensible.
That was an important part of the prosecution case.
For once, the murder/manslaughter of a black person in the US has resulted in something approaching justice but, in the absence of meaningful and prompt police reform, it will have limited relevance - regrettably.
curto80
Free MemberI hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse.
I think that nails it home, but, for me it was just learning that his colleague called an ambulance on account of he'd been choked mostly to death, but Chauvin kept on choking him to death, and then they let him carry on with the choking to death while they waited for the ambulance to come and try and save his life from the choking to death. "We did everything possible to save him except for stopping the murder"
Listening to him tonight just reinforces my perception that the UK and US justice systems are ****ed up beyond belief.
20 odd years of incarceration will achieve nothing.
Rehabilitation, acknowledment of his guilt and educating others would be of far greater benefit to both society and to Mr Chauvin himself.
...acknowledment of his guilt and educating others would be of far greater benefit to both society and to Mr Chauvin himself.
If only.
It's an intrinsic, fundamental part of the social justice systems of several European and Scandinavian countries.
It's happening right now in many the more enlightened areas of the UK forensic justice system.
It costs an awful lot of money.
It works.
All it takes is a change in attitude - not easy, but Holland for example has shown us that accepting the facts, however unpleasant they may initially appear leads to a fundamentally better society.
It also relies on an open minded society who don't just see prison as the answer for everything.
They don't realise it doesn't work and are not interested in listening that it doesn't work.
The UK and US are not like Scandinavian/other countries...
Yep. Unfortunately our politicians know they can always get a cheer by being Tough On Crime, even though they're basically saying We Will Cause More Crime.
Did anyone see that documentary where Anne Widicombe visited the prison in Norway which is the most progressive in Europe? Even that sanctimonious cretin could see that it was better than what we've got here.
But as others have mentioned, the conversation would never get started in this country, it would be strangled at birth by our reactionary media.
The UK and US are not like Scandinavian/other countries…
Not sure about the extent in each, but certainly in America, and I don’t know if it’s a hangover from evangelical Christianity and the notion of vengeance, it seems prison is for retribution and vengeance. The “three strikes and you’re out” approach always comes across as vengeful “let them rot in there”. People (principally of colour of course) end up spending long terms in prison for a few relatively minor offences. I don’t get it. Anyone got comparative recidivism stats for different countries?
People ending up dead while in the 'care' of the police seems to be something that is increasing, or at least it seems that way.
To know for sure you'd have to look at how many deaths in police custody were there in 1920's,30's,40's,50's, 60's and so on up until today in 2021. I cant remember hearing many reports in the 80's or 90's but today they seem to be more prevalent.
Conviction of an officer or officers in the UK is a rare thing it seems.
As it happens, a (white) Midlands cop was just convicted of the manslaughter of a (black) man having a mental health episode. The cop tasered him twice (the first didn't incapacitate his, the second cycle was 33 seconds long), before kicking him in the head. The cop was found with his foot on top of the man's head when reinforcements showed up.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/23/police-officer-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-ex-footballer-dalian-atkinson
20 odd years of incarceration will achieve nothing.
Rehabilitation, acknowledment of his guilt and educating others would be of far greater benefit
Punishment and deterrence are also purposes of the criminal justice system. I agree that in many (most?) cases those are futile. This might be one of the cases where the deterrent effect is felt: if you're a cop that needlessly kills people, there is a chance you will be sent to prison.
Chauvin is accused of evading $450,000 of tax. Floyd was accused of having a counterfeit $50 bill before he was murdered.
I think it's not declaring 450,000 income - still pretty sporting though, even in low tax US
The 3 other police officers are yet to have their day(s) in court.
Likely they will be cacking themselves and revising their defence arguments.
Chauvin's solicitor, Eric Nelson, is retained by minneapolis police to defend; those yet to appear in court should be looking for someone better.
Sorry, scaredypants, you're absolutely right.
I'd imagine Chauvin's lawyer would have been paid by the PBA (union) and contributions from other racists. Hopefully the local police union (which can be relied upon to obstruct and oppose reforms to make policing less violent, opaque and racist) will be bankrupted.
People (principally of colour of course) end up spending long terms in prison for a few relatively minor offences. I don’t get it
They have the highest incarceration rate in the world - The US accounts for 4% of the world's population but 20% of the world's prison population. There are over 2 million people in prison there.. The proportion of people of colour in jail in the US even puts apartheid era South Africa in the shade. In economic terms they're a valuable resource - the 13th Amendment prohibits slavery and involuntary servitude except as a punishment of a crime. The prison population is a labour force bigger that any other US employer - working for 60 cents a day and producting $2 billion worth of commodities. The US economy would fall over without it.
The prison population is a labour force bigger that any other US employer – working for 60 cents a day and producting $2 billion worth of commodities. The US economy would fall over without it.
Do you have a source for that? I'm curious enough to want to read up on it.
Do you have a source for that? I’m curious enough to want to read up on it.
I’ve heard this stuff talked about on various podcasts as well. It’s a crazy part of the economy!
Many US towns also make up the "normal taxation" shortfall by issuing some stupid civil fines, up to 1/3 of their revenues can come from such sources. Cracked drives, mismatched curtains, untidy yards etc the fines themselves are not criminal, but not being able to afford to pay is. They have very effectively criminalised poverty.
Freedom land.
@piemonster it's constitutional. The 13th amendendment. Slavery or involuntary servitude can exist as punishment where someone is convicted of a crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
Interesting reading.
Had to call my dad out as racist yesterday. Think it shocked him and made him think. BLM is not just attacking people for having a different opinion, and most election fraud in the UK is not done by the ****stani community (Well, I don't know for sure, but he was making it a race issue)
Interesting to see how the government's new found concerns about election fraud are gaining traction with those like your father More Cash, your father's response confirms that the issue of election fraud is just a racist trope being trotted out by a racist government to sow more division.
You've expressed it better than I managed in the heat of the moment.
@piemonster it’s constitutional. The 13th amendendment. Slavery or involuntary servitude can exist as punishment where someone is convicted of a crime.
Cheers Malv, but that I already know. I’m more looking for analysis/opinion on how it’s used and the subsequent implications. E.g. are there documented examples where generating income also incentivises to increase the prison population to further generate income.
documented examples where generating income also incentivises to increase the prison population to further generate income.
It's been a while since I watched it, but I think this John Oliver episode talks about it. If not this episode then there's another one that does.