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I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is 'anti racist'. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out 'anti racist' each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring 'anti racist' points than about anything else.
It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted because people offered help that wasn't offered in this thread...
It's all got a bit 6th form common room where people are trying ever so hard to out do one another.
I'm not uncomfortable at all; I'm responsible for my behaviour and I'm content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.
On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.
Everyone I have spoken to connected to Singletrack and various bike brands are keenly aware they have lots to do, and want to do more, but it's not easy. I'll dig out what Cy @ Cotic wrote about this... feel free to contact anyone connected to Cotic about it... we're all behind Cy trying to find ways of being less shit about these issues... we all need to do far more.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/news/2020/black-lives-matter
I’m responsible for my behaviour and I’m content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.
I'm hoping we (I, you, all of us) can find new ways to do more. I'm far from content that I'm even close to doing enough myself. I'm deeply uncomfortable that I've only ridden or chatted with fewer than a handful of riders who aren't white... despite haven met thousands of riders over the decades.
Firstly:
Thanks for posting, sorry if you have been caught up in Krytons and I’s continual bickering!
I keep telling you I'm not arguing with you, maybe its my writing style! 😀
It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted
Please be accurate. I didn't slight it, I use it as to highlight comparable offers of assistance, to which MSP then responded I think quite eloquently to help me understand a difference in peoples reaction which I hadn't considered in my reaction.
I keep telling you I’m not arguing with you,
Alright alright
Maybe, just maybe, have a think about how entering a debate centered around race with an apologist approach to the actions of the police, have a think about how that makes you look. I know you’ll just defend it again, but try and think.
Please, please, please read what I wrote! I am not apologising for what they did. A version of events was given and I responded to that with some conclusions. At no point have I ever endorsed what they did, only offered a suggestion that based on the victims actions prior to being shot he may have given them reason to believe he had ill intent. That is absolutely not the same as absolving them of any responsibility for not de-escalating or resolving the situation using non or less violent means.
I have thought long and hard about this which is why I am going to such lengths to defend myself however it is patently obvious that people are focusing on one single aspect of my post rather than what I wrote as a whole.
I also see neither you nor Mehr have seen fit to apologise for your misquoting and slander respectively.
I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is ‘anti racist’. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out ‘anti racist’ each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring ‘anti racist’ points than about anything else.
Well put. We're all on the same side here, it would do folk well to remember that.
Back on track;
On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.
Oh I have. Surly posted an interview with a black cyclist and the Instagram thread reactions were sickening. The same shit you saw when any company showed solidarity with the movement to be honest but the personal abuse in that case was disgusting.
A link to the article https://surlybikes.com/blog/realities_of_a_black_man_in_the_bike_world
Thanks Kelvin and Squirellking for those links. The surly article was particularly revealing, can't think of a better example of where the sometimes disparate concerns of cyclist and BLM coincide so acutely. Also appreciate linking to the Surly and not the Instagram site with the associated bile, (I can imagine how vile it could be so I'll take your word for it)
Incidently, I'm on the look out for a new hardtail, (adds Cotic and Surly to the list). Or rather doesn't remove them from list, unlike Trek, which are definitely off the list after reading that article!
I’m suggesting that had he complied, according to the version of events you relayed, he would probably be sitting at home now or in a cell.
The footage below suggests that non-compliance with an armed police officer is not the issue, it is the fact that the man with the gun doesn’t view the person on the other end as truly human. You can almost see the moment in the footage where The officer thinks to himself is can’t shoot someone for this’ as his bluff is called.
https://twitter.com/shannonsharpe/status/1299783390573465600?s=21
Police-cam footage has just been leaked of the (March 2020) killing of US citizen Daniel Prude. It took me a while to factcheck/find unedited/uncensored footage. Don’t know how long it will be there.
Trump’s USA is now at the point where cops are laughing while having killed a naked, restrained man while he’s compliant and tripping/in need of medical assistance.
It’s clear how this will spin and become a civil/race war in the the US. It’s ****ed. What’s worse is that the UK seems hot on it’s tail.
Are we watching genocide unfold?
Explained away as the victims fault for previous, non compliance, being in the wrong area, driving and even just being black (skin colour = morals according to the misinformed), and arguing my word choice because they feel alienated by the truth.
In the UK we may not have the death rate but we have equal levels of racism, with the government encouraging the statue protectors.
*edit Youtube took the video down so link is broken. Probably for the best.
Full chestcam footage is around 11:58 in length and must be mirrored all over by now. There are a lot of very, very busy censors at work as we speak.
Today feels different again. Even in these weird times I’ve felt so pessimistic about the future since I saw that. Police, up close in HD laughing as they kill a man. I don’t know what I was expecting. Maybe some ambiguity*. Some evidence of hyperbole. No. The verdict of homicide is plain to see, but why was he killed?
RIP Daniel Prude.
Poll: How/does it change things that one of the attendant officers was black?
*Before the inevitable censoring.
In many ways I think things are worse here than in the US. At least in America there's certain conservative / Republican figures who have expressed an understanding of the situation. Over here, nothing. All conservative figures here are either playing the Trump game or remain sickenenigly silent.
To highlight a sticky problem in all of this. Death caused by excessive restraint by police is a thing in the US
The majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Daniel Prude (a man in need of help yet was suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Daniel Prude, Black Man’
Yet the majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Tony Timpa (a man likewise in need of help and was also suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Tony Timpa’.
I find it tremendously difficult to effectively encapsulate in words. But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person’
EDIT *problem of institutional racism
In short, how are race-relations to be improved when individuals are yet still referred to by their skin colour/heritage as if it’s a second surname?
"But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person"
While I see the point, I'd also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it's probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.
While I see the point, I’d also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it’s probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.
How exactly would that be determined in (say) the two cases I compared? I’ve watched both events via the full-length bodycam footage. It’s **** sad and beyond words what happened to both men. Pretty much identical. Both required help. Both in mental crisis and complicated by drug ingestion. Both are compliant. Both are crushed by the people supposed to be helping them, and both die as a result. Both are audibly mocked in their death (by the very people who killed them) yet nothing I see was of a racial nature. So how does one determine if racial bias is a factor in the restraint/escalation*? If you were an editor/journo how would you determine whether Daniel in this instance was a ‘man’ or a ‘black man’ for the purpose of your piece?
*Escalation ie crush the victim so they are suffocating and then they push back and struggle, which makes cops push harder. Victim fears for life as can’t breathe, so struggles more, screams as an animal in distress. Cops feel perfectly justified in their ‘training’ to push harder, to crush them. They die. Report/cause of death then filed as ‘excited delirium‘/complicated by (name of drug)
As far as I can tell, the standout reason we know the name of Tony Timpa is because he's the only publicised example of a white person being needlessly killed by police in America - I'm sure he's not alone, but thecreason, I think, that we see a racial label applied to so many other needless deaths is because that racial seems to be a singularly consistent point. If the police actions (unnecessary shootings and applied force) were applied equally across the population, I think everyone WOULD be chanting "all lives matter".
Poor Tony's name came up a lot on my Facebook feed a month or six weeks after George Floyd - I'd not heard of him before, and I would wager good money that none of the right-leaning folks who posted about had, either.
Yep, guilty of all 3 charges which together/run concurrently carry a maximum of 80 years, sentencing in 8 weeks time, the only possible verdict given the evidence but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.
but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.
I'm not so sure it's a unique problem to the USA though.
Statistically in an interaction with the police in the USA, black people are just as likely to be shot as anyone else (apparently, it was mentioned on the BBC so I presume someone was fact checking). However they are roughly twice as likely to be involved with the police (25% of incidents for a population of 13%).
Why that is, is a different argument (including racism elsewhere).
But look at the UK with disproportionate levels of stop and search etc. Is the reason other countries don't have the same perceived problem simply because the police don't have the means?
It’s not finished yet unfortunately, he’ll appeal for sure. Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.
Pff, Maxine Waters didn't say anything that isn't obviously true, there's no way it's prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal. And watching Republicans who refused to criticise Trump for his incitement call for her to be censured was a disgrace.
Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.
Her comments like the Presidents weren't played in court, weren't conveyed to the jury, so had no bearing on proceedings.
Rather quick on the jury deliberation time, normally its a fair bit longer, so it seems the evidence was too overwhelming.
Maxine Waters didn’t say anything that isn’t obviously true
Clearly, however...
there’s no way it’s prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal.
...although he dismissed it, the judge said "I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned”
So, I bet there’ll be an attempt to appeal - doesn’t mean it’ll be successful, but they’ll try.
Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.
And then within a few minutes a 15yo Black Girl has been shot by police in Ohio, apparently the 50th black victim of law enforcement in the US since the George Floyd murder.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.
I have to say, I couldn't be more pleased at the way this trial has been concluded. The fear that yet another murderer would walk free simply because they wear a badge, was so much that had Chavin been acquitted, or even just handed down a much lesser conviction, this would set US human rights back so much, and cause so much societal damage, not least in the inevitable violence that would have followed. Good to see the US justice system can, sometimes, work properly. This verdict is monumental; it now shows that serving police officers cannot murder people and escape justice. It paves the way for many, many more successful prosecutions of similar murders at the hands of those who are meant to protect and serve. And on a human level, it means George Floyd's death will not be in vain. And it shows that Black lives DO matter. Early days, but it's an important step in the right direction.
While I want to agree with that, yer man Chauvin is gonna end up suffocated to death in prison by some big black dude's knee. And then the cops will step up the targetting of black guys several notches.
Early days, but it’s an important step in the right direction.
Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there, but a long way to go.
Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there...
Don't be so sure. If you want to be depressed, go and have a look how the good folks of r/Conservative are taking the news.
Here's a select few quotes about the verdict:
"Maybe he is guilty of all charges, but, you can’t reasonable believe the jury wasn’t tainted, influenced, or intimidated."
"Wow it was such a open and fair trial, the verdict was definitely not influenced by threats of violence."
"When you have a jury that is complete fear for their lives if they have an outcome other than guilty with zero protection from an rioting mob egged on by a united states representative. Cowardice is rampant. From the US supreme court to the average person."
"Kangaroo Court"
"Any reasonable person could see reasonable doubt about guilt on any one of those charges. The jury was intimidated by the mob, the media, and even the fraudulent POTUS himself today. This is a travesty of justice."
"the only willing participants [in the jury] would be activists anyways"
"I'm praying that things don't get too crazy in Minnesota over the next while and if they do, I'm praying that the people of Minnesota, who had nothing to do with this case, dosen't get their businesses looted, burned down, hurt or anything along those lines."
"Get ready for the mostly peaceful celebration riots."
"OJ justice: a verdict meant to appease angry, emotional people. The opposite of blind justice."
...but a long way to go.
Indeed.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Re TBF - "To be Fair" - is it? What does waving a knife around mean and does that then excuse the fact she's now dead? I don't think we know enough yet to conclude it was a fair shooting.
Happy as I am to see the verdict, I don't actually think that this represents a good test case.
Derek Chauvin's actions were so obviously wrong and the evidence against him was overwhelming. We literally have an entire murder filmed from start to finish.
It wasn't a shooting, where the police could claim they: saw a gun, feared for their life; heat of the moment; thought they had reached for their Tazer etc.
A police offer kneeled on a restrained, unarmed man until he suffocated to death while the victim, onlookers and fellow officers pleaded with him to stop. There wasn't even the thinnest veneer of mitigation from feeling threatened or even it being unintentional.
Its basically an easy case to convict the police and claim that things have improved.
I saw a short bit of the defence summing up on the telly, the lawyer invited the jury to 'look at his body language" in a 20 sec clip filmed front on with clear sounds of the crowd protesting. His body language looked very much like he was loving the attention and his expression was that of a cat that got the cream. That'd have done it for me if I was on the jury, I hope he goes down for a long time and any appeals fail of course.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Police can ONLY shoot at people if they fear for their own lives or that of someone else. This is essential. Shooting people because they are resisting arrest, for example is NOT grounds for shooting, otherwise that means that resisting arrest is a capital offence AND judgement and sentence is handed down without trial. But you'd be amazed at the number of people who support police shooting people because they resist arrest. They say 'well, shouldn't have resisted, they got what was coming'. No, it doesn't work like that.
I haven't watched the knife girl video, so I don't know if she was about to stab someone or not.
One step forward... although the footage I saw, she was about to stab another girl, whilst another person put his foot through another girls head.
Re TBF – “To be Fair” – is it? What does waving a knife around mean and does that then excuse the fact she’s now dead? I don’t think we know enough yet to conclude it was a fair shooting.
Well no, but at first glance it appears a hell of a lot more 'fair' than what happened to George Floyd. There was at least a plausible risk to someone's life / safety there.
Still, if that knife-waving stuff had happened in the UK, I am willing to bet that all parties would still be alive. #LandOfTheFree
I have to say, I couldn’t be more pleased at the way this trial has been concluded. The fear that yet another murderer would walk free simply because they wear a badge, was so much that had Chavin been acquitted, or even just handed down a much lesser conviction, this would set US human rights back so much, and cause so much societal damage, not least in the inevitable violence that would have followed. Good to see the US justice system can, sometimes, work properly. This verdict is monumental; it now shows that serving police officers cannot murder people and escape justice.
Whilst this is the way it's been framed by the media, it's not completely true or accurate.
There are lots of police convicted of exactly the same thing.
There's a lot not convicted too, but then that's why we have jury trials, not all those cases would have been so blatant.
There are lots of police convicted of exactly the same thing.
From the FT:
"One of the most comprehensive databases on police violence is maintained by Philip Stinson, a criminologist at Bowling Green State University in Ohio and a former police officer. According to Stinson’s research, about a thousand people are killed each year by US police, mostly by shooting. Less than 2 per cent of those deaths resulted in charges being filed against officers.
Since 2005, Stinson has counted 140 cases of police being arrested on charges of murder or manslaughter as a result of an on-duty shooting. Of the 97 cases that have concluded, only seven resulted in murder convictions. More than half were dismissed or resulted in acquittals. Some were reduced to lesser offences."
So 7 since 2005, hardly what anyone could reasonably call "a lot", even if viewed as a proportion of the 97 concluded cases.
Hard to believe there won't be a successful appeal based on not having a fair trial.
What juror wouldn't convict under such pressure?
What juror wouldn’t convict under such pressure?
What verdict would you have returned having seen that footage?
Hard to believe there won’t be a successful appeal based on not having a fair trial.
What juror wouldn’t convict under such pressure?
This is also true of many high profile cases but we don't clamour to throw out the verdict of the next Ian Huntley
Not sure about appeals in the US, but I’ve read a lot of appeal verdicts for here and among other things they consider whether a jury could still reasonably convict if the alleged irregularity or unfairness was absent. As MCTD infers, I suspect the video alone would cover that in this case. (Might be totally irrelevant for the US of course. I’m going to go and look).
As MCTD infers, I suspect the video alone would cover that in this case
A lot of lawful policing looks quite ugly. Emotive in itself, if you run the video with many other videos of people resisting arrests and being lawful choked, would it still look open and shut?
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent. The jury reached this verdict without once even having to double-check with the judge again regarding the standard of proof required, for example. That's one certain and legally well-drilled jury! Three charges all decided in 9 hrs! Even the drugs in Floyd's system, his narrowed arteries, and the lack of damage to his trachea and neck arteries couldn't dissuade them of reasonable doubt that Floyd was killed by Chauvin, nor of reasonable doubt that he intended to do it.
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent
Well that is partly true. There was no need for him to have intended to kill George Floyd, just to have intended to injure him which was a different felony. As I understand it it is second-degree murder if that happened during a different felony even if that wasn't the intended result
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent. The jury reached this verdict without once even having to double-check with the judge again regarding the standard of proof required, for example. That’s one certain and legally well-drilled jury!
They didn't take notes when the requirements of the charge were explained? When the prosecution presumably presented its evidence? When the defence presumably pointed out this flaw in the prosecution cases? Is that a whiff of conspiracy theory I detect in your post?
You're happy with the convictions for the other two charges of illegally killing the guy?