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Therefore, which city should we rebuilt first?
We don't need to rebuild cities, we need to acknowledge our history properly without the hyperbole, and propaganda. we need to reassess what/who we look up to, and why we do it.
Humans have been on the planet for hundreds of thousands of years, and for a good percentage of that slavery was a thing, there's not a country of city or civilisation that hasn't touched in some form or another. (or continues to do so) the legacy of it is painfully closer to all of us than we'd likely be comfortable with. But it has to be said, that some things are so far distant from us that we cannot change or are not worth changing. There's good evidence (for example) that the Pyramids weren't entirely built using slaves...so do you pull down some of it? all of it? The Colosseum, the Parthenon? Stone Henge? do these stay up do they come down?
Will the 'mob' be going after the modern day Romanian & Albanian slavery rings?
I'm sure we all agree that slavery was never a good thing and i doubt anybody is hoping to resurrect it and having people apologise for it is absurd. Just make sure it doesn't happen again..ie stopping the aforementioned.
Just a thought.
If we're making a list, can I suggest every Butchers Apron in Scotland? Add Balmoral and the rest. Even then, it'll only be symbolic unless we do away with the whole monarchy and the institutions surrounding it.
But Bristol city doesn’t have a statue to Genghis **** khan does it.
Yes, you don't have G. Khan but Bristol is practically built from the proceed of slavery so pull it down?
If we’re making a list, can I suggest every Butchers Apron in Scotland? Add Balmoral and the rest.
I certainly can.
Statues are only ever symbolic, in my opinion (obviously exceptions for true works of art, ie by Michelangelo etc). Tearing the Colston statue down hurts no-one and means everything.
And if I'm honest I'm a lot happier with the principle of a statue being at the bottom of the dock than, say, Colston Hall being set alight.
I’m lost with all this…it looks like it’s become a rent a mob movement now!
Will the ‘mob’ be going after the modern day Romanian & Albanian slavery rings?
Care to explain what rentamob is? What form of protest would you prefer? A letter writing campaign and internet petition presumably?
I see you're also falling into the category of people who reject anyone standing up and fighting for their interests because you're too lazy and apathetic to do it yourself. I've seen a lot of this on social media in the last couple of days. How dare oppressed black people cause so much trouble when there are also lots of white people suffering quietly without making a fuss about it.
Yeah the difference being a building serves a practical, useful purpose regardless of who paid for it, whereas a statue serves no purpose but to celebrate the person it depicts. If that person is a slave trader, it's pretty inappropriate to be celebrating them. Not sure where the confusion stems from on this subject.
Furthermore a secondary plaque explaining his wrongdoing was suggested years ago and they didn't bother making it, so the statue clearly wasn't there for educational purposes.
EDIT: was supposed to be a reply to cheekw's most recent but somehow not managed to reply properly
scotroutes
If we’re making a list, can I suggest every Butchers Apron in Scotland?...
Need any help? 🙂
Imagine going to work every day, and cycling past a statue commemorating the work of the person who dragged your ancestors kicking and screaming across the Atlantic to go be enslaved in cotton plantations.
Imagine being asked to come here as part of the windrush generation, and one of the first things you see is that statue, and then a sign on a pub saying "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish"
Imagine white middle aged men defending it.
Statues are only ever symbolic, in my opinion (obviously exceptions for true works of art, ie by Michelangelo etc). Tearing the Colston statue down hurts no-one and means everything.
And if I’m honest I’m a lot happier with the principle of a statue being at the bottom of the dock than, say, Colston Hall being set alight.
What the protestors do not realise is that by destroying all the statues etc they have practicality let the past go easily. All the past slave traders would be laughing in their graves for being let off easily.
Yes, destroy all the history and the protesters will have no more leverage to their past as arguments which means they did not exist.
They'd campaigned for 40yrs to have the statue of Edward Colston either removed or to have the plaque reworded. This is the excuse as to why they haven't. In his time working at The Royal African Company they enslaved around 100,000 people.
Bristol Museums has sought to explain the reason for Colston’s statue remaining the city and says on its website that “Colston never, as far as we know, traded in enslaved Africans on his own account”.
But it added: “What we do know is that he was an active member of the governing body of the RAC, which traded in enslaved Africans, for 11 years.”
Yes, destroy all the history and the protesters will have no more leverage to their past as arguments which means they did not exist.
I've read this a couple of times now, and it still makes zero sense to me.
I’ve read this a couple of times now, and it still makes zero sense to me.
Same here. The Bristol mayor has already said all the placards are being moved to the museum and thought likely the statue will join them. Will make an excellent thought-provoking display, rather than a plaque that just says Colston was 'one of the most virtuous and wise sons'.
Colston Tower is a 70s tower-block. No history there, so change the name.
What the protestors do not realise is that by destroying all the statues etc they have practicality let the past go easily.
It's weird how we don't have any statues of Hitler yet haven't forgotten about the atrocities he committed.
It’s weird how we don’t have any statues of Hitler yet haven’t forgotten about the atrocities he committed.
Bingo. Statues are symbols, people shouldn't really be surprised if they attract symbolic acts, it's pretty much what they're all about.
Uselesshippy,
Exactly this. My mates mum who is in her 80's and came to Bristol as part of the Windrush generation is ecstatic at the turn of events.
How about the proceed from slavery is that okay to keep?
How about all the unknown artefacts of cultural significant from other nations why not return them? Many of those artefacts are clearly not western culture put it this way.
Why do you (and everyone else on the far-right) seem to have this impression that history is one solid block, and if we change something now we have to reflect that change back through all eternity?
The semi-hysterical "Well if you do this, you have to do this" argument is simply a means to detract from the fact that we got to this point largely because the abuses and unfairness of the past has been tolerated and brought forward.
I, for one, do not consider the mass enslavement of upwards of ten million people to be in the same moral pigeon hole as refusing to give back the Elgin Marbles.
Not really.It was erected legally. It was pulled down illegally.
Good grief, is that all you have? The statue is of a man who acted completely legally when he enslaved 100,000 people.
@DazH you know nothing about me and what i stand for - you know what assumptions do?!
I am aghast as to how protesters expect to be taken seriously with the destruction they have done. All this will achieve is to tghten the grip.I'm not getting in to what my presciption would be (it certainly wouldn't be hitting Police horses and smashing things up).
Things need addressing and ths problem is multi-teired so its its solution. The behaviour is doing nothing but set the protestors causes back. Where does it display intelligence? Where does it display what their outcome is? Where does it display how they are going to do it?
I'm genuinely interested.
...and back to my point about slavery, will the BLM movement with all their funding they have been given by the likes of Cisco et al now try and tackle modern day slavery or will they just tweet about on their phones made by an 8 year old in China?? Surely, this sort of positive action and behaviour is more likely to promote greater levels of empathy with people who aren't convinced by their current efforts? Be the change and all that. Or will they just still smash up cties....where next the Liver Buildings in Liverpoool?
Yesterday made me a very proud Bristolian.
Why not melt down the Colston statue and use the bronze to make one in memory of those enslaved. Note on plinth can explain history of the piece.
Like the mayor, I don't condone it but am not exactly sad either. I suspect that is a significant proportion of the population. Personally, I think they should replace it with one of Bristol's greatest double acts... There is already precedent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gromit_Unleashed
dogbone
Why not melt down the Colston statue and use the bronze to make one in memory of those enslaved. Note on plinth can explain history of the piece.
Melt it down and make medals out of it like they did with the Crimean cannons for the VC.
I suggest we call this one the VSC (Virtue Signalling Cross) to be awarded for exceptional efforts to oppose past crimes but not protesting with the same vigour while our govt's incompetence is killing tens of thousands of fellow citizens. (Ye gods, I hope it's incompetence)
The energy going into these protests is worthy, but wouldn't it be good if it was directed at making our govt have some genuine concern for our citizens and stop killing brown folk in foreign lands.
You can only regret the past, you can't fix it, but the future is worth the effort.
Maybe it is time for a revolution, and maybe this is how it starts.
Lamp, have you been kicked in the head by a horse or something?
chrismac
Subscriber
I think debate about statues is good and a new consensus can be reached on which stay and which go. I am appalled that a bunch of rioters can just rip one down because it suits their view point.
surely not celbrating slavery is everyones viewpoint?
the local Mp tried to get this pulled down several times, 1000s signed petition to get it pulled down, Tory councilor repeatedly blocked it
@inkster - Nope. just more than curious where we go from here in a positive constructive way...you know where the cause is presented credibly.
The behaviour is doing nothing but set the protestors causes back
1. It's often not the protesters that are causing violence, or if it is, it's often a v small section of it, and that nuance is often lost is piss poor coverage on the media.
2. it is a fact that peaceful protests (no matter how large) DO NOT attract media coverage at all in this country,
3. Little if anything was ever changed by peaceful protest (See Iraq war)
4. Police tactics are designed to increase the chance of violence (kettling, herding, use of language etc), and I refuse to believe that some cops don't actually enjoy getting stuck into a protester or two.
5. Police tactics are often the cause of direct damage to property
6. Damage to property is often caused by peaceful protesters trying to get away from violent police tactics.
This is stuff I know from the (admittedly) few marches, rallies and protests that I've been in involved in over the years.
Under lockdown, you are 10 times more likely to have been fined if you are BAME. The generation graduating on the streets right now have grown up with 10 years of austerity, 4 years of Brexit based nationalism and they are the first generation to graduate having been educated under a Michael Gove / Dominic Cummings reformed curriculum, that put the King James Bible and celebrating the achievements of Empire at its core whilst removing texts and figures that relate to black history.
What we see is in part evidence of a failed education policy. The Tories set out to 'fix' something they saw as broken and we are now witnessing the results of their efforts. It's going to be a long hot summer, even if it rains.
epicyclo
Subscriber
dogbone
Why not melt down the Colston statue and use the bronze to make one in memory of those enslaved. Note on plinth can explain history of the piece.Melt it down and make medals out of it like they did with the Crimean cannons for the VC.
I suggest we call this one the VSC (Virtue Signalling Cross) to be awarded for exceptional efforts to oppose past crimes but not protesting with the same vigour while our govt’s incompetence is killing tens of thousands of fellow citizens. (Ye gods, I hope it’s incompetence)
The energy going into these protests is worthy, but wouldn’t it be good if it was directed at making our govt have some genuine concern for our citizens and stop killing brown folk in foreign lands.
You can only regret the past, you can’t fix it, but the future is worth the effort.
Maybe it is time for a revolution, and maybe this is how it starts.
It's not a single issue protest. It's a bit disingenuous that you are suggesting it is. But you crack on wagging your finger, missing the point and telling people what they should think or do..
The protests are very much routed in issues of the present.
Where does it display how they are going to do it?
It's not the protestors that can fix the problem.
you know nothing about me and what i stand for – you know what assumptions do?!
I can only go off what you write here, and that doesn't inspire a very positive image I'm afraid.
I am aghast as to how protesters expect to be taken seriously with the destruction they have done.
In a perfect world you'd be right. If something was wrong, people could contact their representatives in local and national government and action would be taken. In a more perfect world they wouldn't need to take action over such a provocatively absurd issue as having a statue to a slave trader in a modern multicultural society.
It's not a perfect world though. Time and again the political system proves that the only thing it listens to is action, and the more direct the better, whether 'violent' or not (I wouldn't describe this as violence BTW). To paraphrase something I saw on social media, why do we judge protestors by their most violent actions, but not the state and it's agents? Why wait months and expend a shit-ton of energy and work in campaigning for a statue to be taken down when you can just go and do it yourself in a few minutes?
The whole point of direct action is exactly that, to act. That's what the state is most scared of, and by opposing it as you do, you reinforce the very thing protestors were taking action against. If that's a position you're comfortable with, then you'll forgive me for making assumptions about what side of the argument you're on.
I am aghast
Now imagine how aghast you'd feel if you were Black today.
I am appalled that a bunch of rioters can just rip one down because it suits their view point.
Not just their viewpoint, the viewpoint of a great many people in Bristol, which you might realise if you were actually paying attention! 11,000 people signed a petition calling for its removal, I’ll bet you that if you did a poll in the city about that statute the majority of people would be quite happy about its removal. It should have been taken down and put into a museum in Bristol along with other exhibits about slavery and Bristol’s long associations with it. Bristol isn’t the only city in the U.K. with connections with slavery, and there needs to be a wider discussion about Britain’s involvement with the trade, but that discussion should also explore the part that African and Arab people had in the trade as well, happily taking money in return for their own people. It’s also often forgotten that some of those same slave traders from North Africa were taking white people from the south of England and Ireland and selling them into slavery - there’s a degree of guilt on both sides, but the obscene amount of money made by white traders, and the celebration of those people has to be addressed, but not swept away; those who choose to ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them, and Bristol has a large Black population who really do need to be listened to and their concerns acted upon now.
We have a long way to go in this country to rid us of the noose of slavery and the idea of Black History month is nothing but a piecemeal offering
@lamp I'm not sure whose intelligence you are questioning and whether or not you're being sarcastic, I don't think you see the irony though. Did you miss my post at the top of the page that said that they've been campaigning for 40yrs to have Colston removed? You may not have seen it in the news as it's mainly been conducted civily through letters and meetings.
BLM is a movement, a collective of unorganised groups campaigning for a variety of different issues. They aren't an organisation and whilst a benefactor may support individual cases there's no mass funding for the movement. There's no legal aid for human rights or public law cases, and so many hoops you have to jump through before the you reach EHRC that time is up before you exhaust the process, so most cases go unheard.
As I said earlier in my reply to rydster who fears a Hobbesian state of nature where selfishness leads to lawlessness, I would suggest that for many we were already there years ago. It's not as balanced as you imagine and cracks have appeared in the facade
4. Police tactics are designed to increase the chance of violence (kettling, herding, use of language etc), and I refuse to believe that some cops don’t actually enjoy getting stuck into a protester or two.
5. Police tactics are often the cause of direct damage to property
6. Damage to property is often caused by peaceful protesters trying to get away from violent police tactics.
Having had direct experience of many protests and marches which turned violent, I can honestly say that almost all of them (with one or two execptions which I won't elaborate on) were caused by police violence. I was at the Criminal Justice Bill 'riot' in 1994, which was caused by the cops kettling protestors in a small area then baton charging them. I've been on many Reclaim the Streets protests where the same happened, and I've seen cops beating the shit out of young female activists in full view of their friends. Almost all of these examples would have remained peaceful and would have diffused without any trouble had the police not waded in. The police have the power to keep protests peaceful, and in Bristol that's what they did, because if they'd done what they often do, it would have resulted in a full-on riot, instead of containing it to a minor case of vandalism.
@DazH - 2 months down the line when the graffiti is gone, the windows have been replaced and something else in the news (which it will be!)...then what?? You see my point?
...so you'd be absolutely fine if someone smashed up your bike, your car, or graffitied the walls on your house then as long as it was for direct action, your'e cool with it?
As analogies go, that's about as good as feathers.
so you’d be absolutely fine if someone smashed up your bike, your car, or graffitied the walls on your house then as long as it was for direct action, your’e cool with it?
Don't be ridiculous. The scenarios are incomparable and you know it. Direct action is something that's used against established power by people who have exhausted other means or who have no recourse to challenging that power. Every now and again people need to signal to the politicians that they will not take no for an answer and that they won't be fobbed off. That's exactly what happened yesterday so I fail to see what the objection is, especially considering that it was still a peaceful expression of their complaints.
…so you’d be absolutely fine if someone smashed up your bike, your car, or graffitied the walls on your house
Violence to property in protests is always universally directed at symbols of power, that's why police stations, courts, statues get graffiti. Damage to property by individuals not part of protest, but going along for a chance for a bit of free stuff, go for shops. The chances of having your personal shit banged up is practically nil.
as long as it was for direct action, your’e cool with it?
It's mostly not peaceful protesters (even ones who believe in direct action) that are the ones damaging private property. The cops on the other hand, mostly couldn't give a toss (I've seen this; a car remain intact, only for it to be rammed by the cops as it was in their way)
Tactically it was a good move to let them do it. Protesting about racism is a bit abstract and this gave a concrete focus. It avoided a bundle with the police and may have saved the council the cost of SERCO pulling it down. Plus it encouraged Priti to make an utter fool of herself. Result.
I attended the Manchester protest on Saturday. I cycled in and as I locked my bike up on Market Street I though to myself 'what if things go tits up and my bike gets trashed?' I wouldn't be happy, I thought, though given the bigger picture I'd be fine with it. My conscience could live with the fact that doing the right thing ended up costing me a £400 bicycle.
Lamp,fear not!There's no need to throw out your bust of Bomber Harris just yet.
This is sort of horrifyingly funny, or funnily horrifying.
"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/klamath-falls-oregon-victory-declared-over-antifa-which-never-showed-n1226681?utm_source=pocket-newtab"
Thanks for that link somafunk.
seosamh77
The protests are very much routed in issues of the present.
I most definitely am not wagging my finger.
I think it's great to see the population finally starting to react. I'd just like to see them aim their anger better than at ancient statues.
As I said, maybe this is just the start...
But maybe we'll now get to see how good a classicist Boris is. He should know what comes next when there isn't enough bread and circuses to keep an angry populace diverted.