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History decides which statues stay and which go.
How far back should the history go?
nickc
Subscriber
who decides which stay and which go?who cares, are you that bothered? I know I’m not. Most of these statues were pit up by our Edwardian great grandparents, they’re almost all totally irrelevant.
Exactly how I feel, these statues have no connection to me. I don't really see why slave traders should be honoured forever. Glasgow is full of them. I'd change the street names too.
History isn't changed by the presence or not of current day memorials. But in a society where we want to progress we should be able to choose monuments to reflect our direction. It shows we've learnt.
An important point was made but I very much doubt the consequences of these actions were considered. Black Lives Matters, yes undoubtedly. But the 100s or 1000s of lives that now may be lost due to the Coronavirus spreading due to the complete lack of social distancing needs to be highlighted.
VE day/beaches/schools/lockdown easing, etc.
Just thought I'd take a moment to celebrate the aesthetic beauty of the toppling of Edward Colston. I've watched it from 50 different angles and smiled or laughed every time, more than I have done for months.
The moment the statue begins to wobble is bewitching, accompanied by the sharp intake of breath from the protesters it becomes a moment when the earth shook. And what a face plant! Then, in the final act, as he disappears beneath the surface the breath leaves his body, bubbling away like a rancid fart. Comedy gold.
The irony of all this is that when they dredge the statue up they'll finaly have to build a Bristol museum of slavery in which to house it.
GlennQuagmire
MemberAn important point was made but I very much doubt the consequences of these actions were considered. Black Lives Matters, yes undoubtedly. But the 100s or 1000s of lives that now may be lost due to the Coronavirus spreading due to the complete lack of social distancing needs to be highlighted.
Not at all likely tbf; the actual numbers and duration mean that while the demos were definitely a higher risk activity, it's not likely to cause any significant change in numbers. It's bound to get blamed, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the wider relaxation/collapse of lockdown.
Seosamh77,
Wasn't someone on here asking: 'But what are the demands?'
Just thought I’d take a moment to celebrate the aesthetic beauty of the toppling of Edward Colston. I’ve watched it from 50 different angles and smiled or laughed every time, more than I have done for months.
The moment the statue begins to wobble is bewitching, accompanied by the sharp intake of breath from the protesters it becomes a moment when the earth shook. And what a face plant! Then, in the final act, as he disappears beneath the surface the breath leaves his body, bubbling away like a rancid fart. Comedy gold.
The irony of all this is that when they dredge the statue up they’ll finaly have to build a Bristol museum of slavery in which to house it.
How about the proceed from slavery is that okay to keep?
How about all the unknown artefacts of cultural significant from other nations why not return them? Many of those artefacts are clearly not western culture put it this way.
Wasn’t someone on here asking: ‘But what are the demands?’
He looks like he does not know what he is doing as mayor. Yes, vote him out.
Fill yor boots chewkw, glad to see you're onboard!
chewkw
MemberHow about the proceed from slavery is that okay to keep?
How about all the unknown artefacts of cultural significant from other nations why not return them? Many of those artefacts are clearly not western culture put it this way.
It's a fair comment, and a comment that affects every facet of society if you follow it to it's natural conclusion.
Mate has just forwarded me a load of clips of the Great Bristol Face plant that his mother's been sending out.
She came to Bristol as part of the Windrush generation and is very happy today. She may be in her 80's but she's tweeting out videos like a Kardashian!
Fill yor boots chewkw, glad to see you’re onboard!
If you really want to wipe the slate clean perhaps start with the followings:
1. Everything that is non-British or Western should not be used at all unless given consent.
2. Even the statues of Gandhi or Mandela should not be displayed as it is offensive to see them standing in the square as some sort of tourists attractions.
3. Any symbols that depict non-British culture from colonial era should all be taken out.
4. All things built from the proceed of slavery should be replaced and be rebuilt ...
The list goes on ...
It’s a fair comment, and a comment that affects every facet of society if you follow it to it’s natural conclusion.
Yes, that is why I asked the question how far do you want to go back in history ...
I was actually thinking it goes deeper than that chewkw and would lead you to ultimately question the fundamental structures of the capitalist system.
was actually thinking it goes deeper than that chewkw and would lead you to question the fundamental structures of the capitalist system.
It goes back to civilisation.
All these were built with/by force labour/slaves from the day the pyramids, Great Wall of China, the Inca pyramids were built. Put it this way Great Wall of China was not built by willing patriotic volunteered labour.
chewkw
Member
It goes back to civilisation. From the day the pyramids, Great Wall of China, the Inca pyramids were built. Put it this way Great Wall of China was not built by patriotic volunteered labour.
Yeah, I know. I've been to Kelvingrove Museum numerous times, it's not hidden. But the appropriation of wealth to the detriment of others isn't really something that's ever ended, it's not just history.
There is no end to history, no perfect ideological solution that will right the wrongs of the past and bring paradise on earth for all eternity. Your questions Chewkw, are entirely reasonable.
The discussion around which statues or monuments should be removed is traditionally the domain of historians or self appointed guardians of history. It must be funny for them, arguing about the rights and wrongs as history happens in front of their eyes when they look out of the window and see old Eddie rolling down the street.
Who's next? Winston Churchill? I know he was given a Mohawk haircut a few years ago, and was redecorated recently but Id like to see his statue come down, if only for a while. That might open up the conversation about him running concentration camps in 1950's Kenya, where the men campaigning for independence were tortured either by having sand shoved up their arses with broomsticks, or having their balls smashed in with a cricket bats. As for the women....broken bottles... use your imagination, like the police did with the disappearing sand trick.
People riot when their voices aren’t heard.
Farage can finally throw off his cloak off and lead his true calling
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1269705670670114816?s=20
*Edit, lots of far right accounts are amplyfing the call to fight/stop the BLM protests
Tiny Tommeh is also very angry
https://twitter.com/AndyHa_/status/1269759628520435712?s=20
Next Saturday 2020 Endgame
https://twitter.com/zach2302/status/1269749846124171267?s=20
Ahh he’s got off that fishing boat then 🙂
He gets rather high pitched when he’s angry doesn’t he 😂 what a tool
He gets rather high pitched when he’s angry
Yeah, cocaine will do that.
Well done Bristolians, good riddance.
Get in the sea.
chewkw
Member
It goes back to civilisation. From the day the pyramids, Great Wall of China, the Inca pyramids were built. Put it this way Great Wall of China was not built by patriotic volunteered labour.Yeah, I know. I’ve been to Kelvingrove Museum numerous times, it’s not hidden. But the appropriation of wealth to the detriment of others isn’t really something that’s ever ended, it’s not just history.
The monuments inc. wonders of the world can be viewed as commemoration of the oppressed; statues such as Colston are nothing more than celebration of the oppressor.
Public freak out on reddit is full of horrific videos of police taking the piss....
Surprised no cops have been shot at given their acts and the prevalence of guns in the US.
I don't like seeing symbols of history destroyed because then the next generation don't see that tangible reminder.
Take the statue of the Duke of Cumberland the Butcher. Infamous in Scotland for the genocide that followed the failed 1746 rebellion. Should that get toppled? Or should the real story be attached to him?
Or almost local to me, "The Mannie" overlooking Golspie. The man responsible for turning the Highland Glens into a desert of sheep. I'd settle for just removing the head and placing it as the target in a public urinal - that would be a brilliant tourist attraction for Golspie. Folk would come from the USA specially to pee on that. 🙂
I'd prefer to see them preserved but with a plaque commemorating their evils as well as what they did to deserve being immortalised in a statue. Take them down to ground level though. If they have to be moved, then maybe we should have a special park in each city to remember our more unpleasant heroes. Nasty Bastard and Right C**** Park has a ring to it. 🙂
I don’t like seeing symbols of history destroyed because then the next generation don’t see that tangible reminder.
Just replace the statue with that of those that suffered from their actions.
Statues aren't history, they're just commemoration (which is a sort of hero worship after all) . If the thing/person you're worshipping on reflection doesn't deserve it, or times have changed, and that doesn't reflect what you want, then rip it down.
TBH, no one gives a crap when great swathes of Canary Wharf were bulldozed to make way for Banker flats, or housing or villages get torn down when they get in the way of a road, and those are often folk's homes. If a lump of iron gets pulled down peacefully? Crack on...
nickc
Subscriber
Statues aren’t history,
100%.
I really don't understand the connection people have to monuments of the landed gentry, they aren't the guardians of history, tbh you could probably argue the point of them was to distort history. A plaque most people won't read isn't going to change that.
History is better when comes from books, not statues to obscene wealth telling an airbrushed view of history..
The Duke of Sutherland statue was the fisrt thing I thought of. I've driven hundreds of tourists past it. They almost always ask what and who it is. I then tell them about the Clearances and his part in them* Without that stark reminder on the hill, the story of the people of Sutherland might go untold. Locally, opinion seems to have swung behind keeping it in place. Removing it would be no more than a gesture. I'd rather see the current estates split up and managed by the folk who live and work there. That would have a much greater affect on the future.
There is a more modest statue of the Cleared at Helmsdale. I point that out too.
* I also tell them about the Duchess of Sutherland, Carbisdale Castle and the clock tower but I'll save that for another time.
The video above is about why there are so many statues in the South of the USA commemorating the civil war generals, politicians, and so on. The same is largely true of large amounts of public statuary in the UK as well. When you start to look at when the vast majority of public commemoration (of especially Imperialists) started to be erected, it was at the decline of Empire. Loads of these were put up buy folk (or their supporters) who were keen of celebrating a a way of life that for millions was oppressive, but for a select few was very very comfy, thanks v much. We do need to have a reckoning about why some of them aren't being removed.
For the record, despite his many flaws, I think the one of Churchill should remain.
scotroutes
Subscriber
Why do those people need about a million monuments up and down the country though? There's wider histories that we can tell.
Plus if you put something in place of the duke of sutherland monument, people will still point and ask, what's that.
I'm not trying to make some wider point. I'm commenting on one statue.
I think there's a middle ground, as others have said there's nothing wrong with acknowledging the wealth that created our country whilst also recognising where that wealth came from. Local history is something we're not particularly good at, perhaps making it a requirement of the curriculum to learn history at a local level would go some way to bridge the gap. We have a dark past, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and using it to place modern events within a historical context.
In the meantime, keeping the statues but in a less reverential setting would strike a balance. Or don't. As Scotroutes says sometimes a very visual reminder works just as well.
My only concern is if we start replacing them with other whitewashed areas of history like the ridiculous statue they erected in Glasgow commemorating all the Irish immigrants "welcomed" into the city.
I think debate about statues is good and a new consensus can be reached on which stay and which go. I am appalled that a bunch of rioters can just rip one down because it suits their view point.
I am appalled that a bunch of rioters can just rip one down because it suits their view point.
I suppose you have to decide which is the greater crime: pulling it down, or erecting it in the first place.
I’d prefer to see them preserved but with a plaque commemorating their evils as well as what they did to deserve being immortalised in a statue. Take them down to ground level though. If they have to be moved, then maybe we should have a special park in each city to remember our more unpleasant heroes.
Controversial statues could be removed from public places and put into museums where they can be displayed with information that puts them in context and tells the full story of the subject of the sculpture. You could do the same thing with The Mannie. Just replace him with an alternative public monument that is a more inclusive representation of the people of Sutherland, which tourists can still ask questions about. I don't think putting a plaque on a public statute really addresses the issue properly, because a lot of people will never read the "small print".
The lack of widespread outrage at the Bristol toppling suggests that a lot of people agree it is something that should have been done long ago. I think a lot of people view it differently from the "random vandalism" of smashing in a shop window.
The question isn't should any given statue be pulled down but will it be. The will of the people through their actions will decide what stays or what goes, it's not something that's going to be resolved by a committee.
Anyway, what I say is irrelevant, as is we all say on here. We're old farts for the most part and the next direction for the country is going to be decided by the youth. If they want it coming down it's coming down, if you don't like it then go and put it back up yourself if you can muster the energy, because be sure that this coming generation has the energy to pull it right back down again.
The youth is angry, the youth is bored, schools out, gap years out, holidays are out, pubs and clubs are shut, the next year of university is on a stay at home tip. What could possibly go wrong?
The monuments inc. wonders of the world can be viewed as commemoration of the oppressed; statues such as Colston are nothing more than celebration of the oppressor.
To the mind of the oppressed or people who ended up in the losing end everything that reminds them of their past is offensive. No ifs and buts. Want to pull down all these buildings to start new?
Isn't it wonderful if we could wipe away our unwanted past to start new and proudly say we have not "sinned".
Slavery and the Building of Britain
Majority of civilisation is built from the proceed of on slavery as it is the norm of those days. From Genghis Khan to Alexander the Great both of which were despicable characters but they change the world. At some point our ancestors (you and me) might even be slaves in those days. If you are not a citizen of Rome in the past then you are a slave or lowly rated beings. In China the emperors and the generals usually enjoy the spoilt of their conflict as they wished. In Japan everyone is practically slaves apart from the Shogun and Samurai classes or the ruling classes. Same in other continents ...
Therefore, which city should we rebuilt first?
But Bristol city doesn't have a statue to Genghis ****ing khan does it.
Is this a race issue now? A class issue or is it about slavery? I've seen some outstanding comments on social media that just don't make sense!
I'm lost with all this...it looks like it's become a rent a mob movement now!
I suppose you have to decide which is the greater crime: pulling it down, or erecting it in the first place.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Not really.It was erected legally. It was pulled down illegally. If people want to debate and come to a consensus on what stays and goes then fine. Or are you suggesting we all go around pulling down memorials, statues or monuments we don’t like. If we can let’s start with all religious buildings as most of them have highly unsavoury histories. The crusades were hardly worth celebrating so let get rid of anything to do with them</span>
Is this a race issue now? A class issue or is it about slavery?
It can be all three. They are heavily intertwined