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Says something else about violence and antifa.
https://twitter.com/FuriosaLives/status/1269375444010381314?s=20
I'd have to disagree with those saying the statues issue has become a distraction from the original topic. By sticking 'on topic there was always a danger that this would be a 'look what's happening over there' thread.
The symbolism of the events in Bristol are immense and bought the issue of Britain's culturally ingrained racism to the fore in an instant. The speed thing is important, a debate that had smouldered for 40 years was resolved in 40 minutes.
Some have sought to compare the events in Bristol to the Chinese Cultural Revolution. It reminded me more of an episode of the Simpsons and I think the protesters themselves were conscious of the pantomime nature of their actions. I saw more joy than hatred.
I provided an article from a liberal magazine to illustrate my point. You provide a gotcha Twitter. What’s next an episode of Trevor Noah?
a liberal magazine
Liberal by the standards of the US isn't necessarily liberal by anyone else's standards. These things should never be viewed in isolation.
And I don't think Dazh took anything away from your point, it's exactly the contradictory narrative that is being played right now.
It’s pretty disappointing to see how recent events are now starting to detract from the very important focus on ending racism and inequality of opportunity.
It seems to me that a lot of the narrative in the UK is now coming from the same left wing activists / anti capitalists who have been pushing class war and seeking to stifle debate on a number of fronts - with the constant threat of public “shaming” for anyone that challenges them.
Many of the protesters don’t really seem to know why they are there and of those that do, their position seems conflicted by their own bias.
This video has been doing the rounds in oz - not sure if there’s anything similar for the U.K. but illustrates some of the inconsistencies.
My own view on Colston is that the statue should have been removed years ago.
Not sure if any videos like that are doing the rounds in the UK. But then unlike Nadine Doris I don't have Jada Frantzen in my facebook group.
Saw what seemed to me to be a dozen EDL types defending the war memorial in St Peters Square, Manchester this afternoon.
Not sure if they were defending it from Antifa or pigeons. Didn't see any Antifa about but to be fair, they did seem to be keeping away the pigeons.
Last I heard, Antifa had had a large donation from Soros and had invested in building a secure communications app from the ground up. So, they were probably a hit busy today.
Justine Damond - After the initial aquital, the officer was charged with 2nd degree murder.
I don't know the American numbers but only one man in the UK "made legal history as the first person to win a case against the police for a racist attack – but guess what? I am still the only one 28 years later. Nothing of course happened to the officers." Aamer Anwar. He is the lawyer for Sheku Bayoh's family, there's a documentary on BBC 1(Scotland) tonight at 10.45
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18501332.aamer-anwar/
Justine Damond – After the initial aquital, the officer was charged with 2nd degree murder.
Jesus, 12 years for making a mistake.
Aren't there temperament tests for Policemen to make sure they don't get so spooked that they shoot people? I'm a bit jumpy so most likely I'd have done the same as him: Dark alley; possibility of an ambush; someone approaches the car but I wouldn't expect to pass the tests to get into an armed police force.
According to wiki Third degree murder is "without intent to cause the death of any person".
Tragic for everyone involved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond
Jesus, 12 years for making a mistake.
Seriously? Does that not seem a little trite to you?
Seriously? Does that not seem a little trite to you?
Well it's not the finest sentence I've ever written and I could have devoted more time to finding a better way to put it but I'm pretty sure most STWs will be able to work out what I mean from it.
The point is there was zero intent, they both got spooked and one of them fired his gun.
Poor delicate blossom - should have let him off, right?
In many states in the US, they can charge for different murder degrees at the same time. So he was charged for second, but convicted for third. From my quick read it seems, that he discharged his firearm, without getting a clear view of what was happening. Much life the cop that killed Floyd has been charged with second, but probably will be convicted of third.
His refusal to cooperate with the investigation and not wearing any body cam did not help with his situation.
His partner tried to use the "feared for his life" defense. This is basically trying to invoke the get out of jail card that cops get if they can prove at any moment that they feared for his life. Even if they got themselves in a bad situation out of their own negligence. Unfortunately I can't find at the moment any balanced/non-click bait article that explains it.
Its a really shitty situation. He got jumpy and shot his gun. However, from the little evidence there was, it seems there was absolutely no reason to get spooked. Hence the "disregard for human life".
Many of the protesters don’t really seem to know why they are there and of those that do, their position seems conflicted by their own bias.
Really, what's your evidence for that? There are tens of thousands of people protesting, and your special knowledge reveals to you that many of them don't know why they are there, and are "conflicted"?
Speaking of bias, I notice the chap in your video conveniently ignores the person who succinctly explains the difference between the Justine Damond case and George Floyd. He doesn't seem keen to engage with an opinion that contradicts his reductive argument, does he? I had a look at his "TR News" website, and it has a story about Stephen Yaxley Lennon being "arrested for doing his job", which doesn't really encourage me to take it very seriously as a news outlet. I think Yaxley Lennon gets arrested for being a racist criminal, and he doesn't have a proper job.
Oh, and when someone entitles their report "the only video you need to see", don't you automatically wonder why they don't want you to listen to any other views of the situation?
This has just developed in to middle class white guy chat hinit? Conversation here is pretty pointless tbh... the ones that have made up their mind there's no case to answer aren't going to change their minds...
I don't know the class or ethnic background of everyone on here, so can't comment on that.
I do know a crap argument when I see one.
I had a look at his “TR News” website
TR News is Tommy Robinson's "news" channel. Avi Yemini (the reporter, and convicted of assaulting his ex-wife) is just another right wing grifter.
That's the only thing you need to know about that video...
Saw what seemed to me to be a dozen EDL types defending the war memorial
Yeah, the apparently un-ironically named Democratic Football Lads Alliance have organised a protest apparently. They're going to spend just as long as it takes guarding a statue no-ones cares about; to get in the local newspaper.
Just listened to Akala's Insta chat from last night - he warned there'd be counter-demos, looks like the man was on the money again.
He also warned BLM protestors not to engage as it plays straight into the hands of of the right-wing media.
They’re going to spend just as long as it takes guarding a statue no-ones cares about; to get in the local newspaper.
Let's see how many racists complain about THEM not social distancing.
I think the debate will soon move on from the statues to address other issues. Its hard to underestimate the significance and symbolism of the events in Bristol.
If statues have become the sites where a culture war is being fought, the toppling of Edwarh Coulston into the harbour was the sinking of the Bismarck, dafacing Churchill's plinth was the scuttling of the Graf Spee and removing Cecil Rhodes will be the sinking of the Turpiz.
The big battleships will have all been sunk and as nickc suggests, the hooligans are going to be left guarding statues no one cares about.
EDIT.
Easy to underestimate!
inkster
Member
I think the debate will soon move on from the statues to address other issues. Its hard to underestimate the significance and symbolism of the events in Bristol.If statues have become the sites where a culture war is being fought, the toppling of Edwarh Coulston into the harbour was the sinking of the Bismarck, dafacing Churchill’s plinth was the scuttling of the Graf Spee and removing Cecil Rhodes will be the sinking of the Turpiz.
The big battleships will have all been sunk and as nickc suggests, the hooligans are going to be left guarding statues no one cares about.
no offence, but what the f are you gibbering about? 😆
I think he's just talking ship
no offence, but what the f are you gibbering about? 😆
He is equating taking down the statues with an ideological victory.
In his mind, and many that think like him, take down a controversial/offensive statue = advancing social justice.
That’s what I interpreted from it.
I know what he was meaning, it's a tiny part of it, but it's just indicative of how this conversation here has inserted heid up it's own arse. 😆
Well I understand Inkster and agree with him that the debate wil move on to address other issues (that need to be addressed). Gone with Wind, Old soaps, literature, comics... .
Going for the person as usual when reasoning fails you, Seosamh77. The smileys don't negate the insult.
I'm insulting the general conversation edukator, not the individual.
I'm happy for statues to come down it's not like I disagree with the point, just that making the whole thread about that, and arguing with individuals that are against it and won't ever change their mind, is an utterly pointless merry-go-round. And leads to utter irrelevances like comparing the events to ww2 events in a futile attempt to win them round.
I think facing up to our colonial legacy is absolutely part of dealing with racism in the UK
Glorifying what at best was a mixed bag of achievements & at worst genocide is shameful
But don't forget....
"At least we weren't as bad as the French or the Belgians" which is another fave of the "let bygones be bygones" brigade.
Yep, according to the Grauniad the ‘Lads’ are mobilising.
Get those flat-roofed pubs open again FFS. Give the twunts something to do.
take down a controversial/offensive statue = advancing social justice
That one symbolic act has achieved more for racial equality than the past 50yrs. It has opened up conversations about education and justice, which could be quite revolutionary.
One example for starters is that we're 21 pages in on a thread about racism and it's been largely civil and informative, I'd say that's progress.
Yes Faerie. All from a symbolic act on a symbol.
Amazing really.
arguing with individuals that are against it and won’t ever change their mind
What makes you think you are right? You have no clue if this action will matter 50 or 100 years from now, or if the impact was good or bad. We can only speculate.
This just reads like it’s you who will never change his mind.
This polarising self-righteous pseudo intelectual attitude is cancer to our modern society.
pseudo intelectual
If you're going to use that term as an insult you would be much better off spelling it correctly.🙂
baboonz
Member
arguing with individuals that are against it and won’t ever change their mindWhat makes you think you are right?
Well cause... slavery. It's the proverbial no brainer.
What makes you think you are right? You have no clue if this action will matter 50 or 100 years from now, or if the impact was good or bad. We can only speculate.
This just reads like it’s you who will never change his mind.
This polarising self-righteous pseudo intelectual attitude is cancer to our modern society.
Colston's statue is never going back on that pedestal, and it looks extremely likely it will end up in a museum with contextual information providing a much more rounded description of who he was and what he did. After years of ineffectual discussion about what to do with the statue there is no doubt this has been a significant event.
I don't understand where you are seeing "pseudo intellectualism"? Can you explain, please?
Farage is gone from LBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53006006
"This week the 56-year-old compared Black Lives Matters protestors to the Taliban, for demolishing statues of slaves traders."
Jeez did he really say that?
I don’t understand where you are seeing “pseudo intellectualism”? Can you explain, please?
Yes, I'd simply love to see that too...
Well cause… slavery. It’s the proverbial no brainer.
Being for or against taking down a statue, has nothing to do with being pro or for slavery. Are you being silly on purpose?
There are valid points for taking a statue down, and valid for leaving it there. There have also been valid points to why a mob/protesters taking down a statue may be a bad idea or not.
Is it really that hard to understand? Do you ever question your own beliefs?
What makes you think you are right? You have no clue if this action will matter 50 or 100 years from now, or if the impact was good or bad. We can only speculate.
surely that is always the case
This polarising self-righteous pseudo intelectual attitude is cancer to our modern society.
be honest now, the Colston statue furore has done more to educate many people about slavery than any number of government initiatives
the fact that it will be moved to a museum & placed in display with placards from the BLM march, is a great victory for this 'polarising self-righteous pseudo intelectual attitude'
Babbs,
To imagine what things might look like in 50 or 100 years time you only have to look back in time using the same proportion.
50 years ago, civil rights era. Addressing segregation and denial of voting rights.
100 years ago, race riots (Tulsa, Liverpool, Cardif) jim crow introduced, a swathe of black Republican politicians re-elected. Confederal statues spring up like weeds.
150 years ago. American Civil War, predicated against the expansion of slavery into the western territories.
There's a pattern.
baboonz
Member
Well cause… slavery. It’s the proverbial no brainer.Being for or against taking down a statue, has nothing to do with being pro or for slavery. Are you being silly on purpose?
Trying to drag me in.
Pretty certain I just made it clear I'm not going to engage with fools like yourself while you attempt to grapple with the blinking obvious. 😆
surely that is always the case
Doesn't seem the case in this forum a lot of the times. The point I've failed to make, is that just because someone does something with good intentions, it doesn't mean its right or will lead to a positive outcome.
be honest now, the Colston statue furore has done more to educate many people about slavery than any number of government initiatives
the fact that it will be moved to a museum & placed in display with placards from the BLM march, is a great victory for this ‘polarising self-righteous pseudo intelectual attitude’
I've personally learned more about the history of Bristol than anything-can't speak for others, I'm an antisocial labrat. Like I said earlier, I am 50/50 regarding the statue. It is the way that it was done that I am very much against.
If you allow me to be cynical, it is my thought that the timing of this protests will backfire. Trump will get re-elected and people in the UK are too absorbed by Covid to actually truly care, or maybe I am wrong and this is the right timing, since councils can maybe now take unilateral decisions and flying under the radar.
My comment was for the attitude of the poster(not for you @inkster you're sticking to your guns, and I like it, although I wish you used the racist label less), where he was trying to dissuade a debate, because "they are not going to change their mind", after what was a fruitful discussion. We even heard from someone who his great uncle was part of the chinese revolution(hope he is not trolling), I myself am a Spanish immigrant, is this not the kind of diverse background/opinions liberals are all about? But no, the debate had to be belittled because it doesn't conform with his views.
To imagine what things might look like in 50 or 100 years time you only have to look back in time using the same proportion.
Thanks for addressing the actual point I was trying to make. I would argue that the system at the moment is not "directly" racist, AKA we are all equal under the law, this is different to institutional racism. Therefore it is time to make these changes in a lawful manner.
Considering we've had 4 years of Brexit, 'we'll fight them on the beaches' Victory over Europe Day rhetoric shoved down our throats I think the battleships analogy is fair enough.
Those who decry the desecration of statues as attacking history are those who are most likely to repeat it. The yobs 'protecting' the War memorial in Manchester would sooner join the SS than fight for liberty.
If you are 10 times more likely to be arrested and fined under lockdown if you're black, how are we all equal under the law?
Some of the 'yobs' protecting War memorials around the country are ex soldiers who don't want these memorials to be damaged...
If you are 10 times more likely to be arrested and fined under lockdown if you’re black, how are we all equal under the law?
Is it plausible that black people mainly live in cities, and in disadvantaged areas that have a higher police presence? I'm sure there is a racist/prejudice element in it, but I want to believe its smaller contributor than what the statistic suggests.
I'll be more specific, point me to a law that actively discriminates.
Some of the ‘yobs’ protecting War memorials around the country are ex soldiers who don’t want these memorials to be damaged…
I’m willing to bet in a Venn diagram of meatheadedness there’s a large overlap between yob and ex-soldier.
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine.
kcr
MemberColston’s statue is never going back on that pedestal, and it looks extremely likely it will end up in a museum with contextual information providing a much more rounded description of who he was and what he did. After years of ineffectual discussion about what to do with the statue there is no doubt this has been a significant event.
I actually really like what some states have done, creating sort of Gardens Of Questionable Statues- don't destroy them, just get them together so they can be seen and appreciated but also really unmissably understood for what they are.
Some of the ‘yobs’ protecting War memorials around the country are ex soldiers who don’t want these memorials to be damaged…
Key word = 'some'.
The shirt + tie + leather jacket + flat-roof local lot will be the majority.
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine
My son was a soldier. Get to ****.
Northwind,
Just like the Island of misfit macots in South Park.
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine.
Dear me. A sweeping statement that misses the mark by a country mile. Personally I've come across more poeple with violent tendancies in boring civilian jobs than I've ever encountered on an army base (I worked on one in cold war Germany and was a civilian member of a French army triathlon team). One common point though (edit: for the violent ones in either), too much time spent in pubs or bars.
I actually really like what some states have done, creating sort of Gardens Of Questionable Statues- don’t destroy them, just get them together so they can be seen and appreciated but also really unmissably understood for what they are.
Any examples for this, I’m intrigued.
Last I heard, Antifa had had a large donation from Soros and had invested in building a secure communications app from the ground up. So, they were probably a hit busy today.
I hope the /s was missed off the end of that statement, otherwise it looks like you’re swallowing QAnon and Angry Tinkerbell’s right-wing conspiracist bullshit hook, line and sinker!
Despite what Angry Tinkerbell seems to believe, there is no such organisation as Antifa, never has been.
It’s just a contraction of anti-fascist, which anyone to the left of Nigel Farage and The Donald are likely to be.
You’re not outing yourself as a Farage/Trump/NF supporter, are you?
My mistake, I now realise pacifists make the best soldiers.
...and for the last 30 years working in hospital, I've worked alongside ex soldiers. All of whom have continued to serve their country in that NHS that you clapped for.
so again, get to ****.
I’m willing to bet in a Venn diagram of meatheadedness there’s a large overlap between yob and ex-soldier.
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine.
Bellend !
I once saw a lieutenant serving in Afghanistan say the that being a soldier had less to do with patriotism and more to do with challenging yourself as an individual, being the best you can. I thought nothing less of him for saying it.
After hearing that I came to think of soldiers as sportsperons, maybe they didn't make the cut at junior trials as they didn't have the technical skills but still had a competitiveness and determination to succeed that could redirect by joining the Army.
Soldiers do a job that they chose to do.
I’ll be more specific, point me to a law that actively discriminates.
Stop and search?
"...between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people..."
Equality under the law doesn't exist as an abstract concept; how the law is applied is a key part of equality.
I would like to think we're all equal under the law, but when I hear so many black people saying that's not true, my inclination is to try and understand why they are saying that, not tell them that the problem doesn't exist.
Is it plausible that black people mainly live in cities, and in disadvantaged areas that have a higher police presence?
It sure is. Did you ponder why that might be true, and whether that might be another symptom of the underlying problem?
You’re not outing yourself as a Farage/Trump/NF supporter, are you?
Yeah, got it in one.
Any examples for this, I’m intrigued.
One of the ex-Soviet Baltic states has created one , forgive me, I can't arsed to look it up, but I think it's called Lenin World, or maybe Stalin World (yes really, I'm not making it up)
Some of the ‘yobs’ protecting War memorials around the country are ex soldiers who don’t want these memorials to be damaged…
I know and have known plenty of ex-forces, many that I class as good friends. Can't think of a single one that would be classed as left wing, maybe one or two that could be classed as liberal but the vast majority would classed as right to hard right wing. It would not suprise me if a few joined in with the yobs and they'd certainly be vocally supporting them on social media.
It is the way that it was done that I am very much against.
I get that, and I understand the sentiment. Mob rule, all that shit. But, again, like the statues, you have to contextualise it.
Here was a local (and I emphasis the local bit) group who've tried for 40 years to variously have the thing moved, or additional plaques added, or damn well near anything to point out that Colston was (not to put too fine a point on it) A grade A Shit that they didn't want a statue of in their community. And they've been ignored....All that time, arranging protests, and petitions, and asking for stuff to get done, and they've had the equivalent of a shrug or a condescending sigh, or just silence from the people who should be listening to them...So they said "Never mind, we'll sort it ourselves"
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Grutas Park?
That's the one!!
Woah.
Id not registered what’s happening in Seattle
I know and have known plenty of ex-forces
But on a thread all about racism, the crude, lazy stereotyping of any group of people is perhaps something that shouldn't really be occurring, is it?
Unless it's OK when the stereotype is about presumably right wing people?
It's no surprise that the police and army tend to vote for the authoritarian right, around 50% for Le Pen in recent French elections:
But then about 34% of the general population did too in the second round of the presidential elections.
What that doesn't make them is slave trade apologists, or even automatically racist. Unfortunately in some cases they are which is where my contributions to this thread started. I'm hoping that the current debate will bring about change within the forces in that the political/social climate will give cops that are on the side of right and good the chance to take on the racists within their own ranks.
It sure is. Did you ponder why that might be true, and whether that might be another symptom of the underlying problem?
I'm not denying what you are trying to imply. Neither does what I posted.
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Worth highlighting that. In the midst of some awful examples recently, that seems like a really good piece of professional, intelligent policing. Understood the mood, avoided unnecessary confrontation and kept everyone safe. At the end of the day, you can always fish a statue out of the water.
Woah.
Id not registered what’s happening in Seattle
That’s what happens when you take Orwell’s Animal Farm off the curriculum. Destined to repeat the same mistakes.
Thanks for putting things in context. I also understand better why it was done, but at this point its really what degree of civil unrest are you comfortable with, in this we will probably disagree. In my opinion it also belittles the 40 years of effort of trying to taking it down the right way.
On the other hand, there is the danger of this event being taken out of context the other way, as in a free for all of taking down monuments/statues.
But on a thread all about racism, the crude, lazy stereotyping of any group of people is perhaps something that shouldn’t really be occurring, is it?
Unless it’s OK when the stereotype is about presumably right wing people?
What stereotyping? I said that in my experience the ex-forces I know tend to be right wing and some to the point where they would join some weird vigilante group to protect statues. This started with it being suggested that yobs shouldn't be called yobs if they are ex forces. That's nonsense.
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Worth highlighting that. In the midst of some awful examples recently, that seems like a really good piece of professional, intelligent policing. Understood the mood, avoided unnecessary confrontation and kept everyone safe. At the end of the day, you can always fish a statue out of the water.
Agreed - I was pretty impressed with the action, the response by the police and the council.
inkster - as for soldiers doing a job they chose to do let's not forget it's also a job that the vast majority wouldn't.
Soldiers be soldiers, as Edukator pointed out. Its no more surprising that soldiers and policemen lean to the right than teachers and social workers lean to the left. Whatever else changes I can't see that changing!
There has been an increasing sentimentalisation of those who serve in the last 40 years or so. I remember the Falklands war, where those who died were buried where they fell, just like British soldiers had done for hundreds of years, laid to rest in a piece of land far away that will be forever England. I am not being in the least bit cynical when I say this, The idea of dying as a soldier had always been a romantic idea, not a sentimental one.
I reserve my cynicism for what began during the Blair years, when the bodies started being returned from Afghanistan and Iraq to be paraded in a sentimental ritual. I'm not sure this is what the soldiers had signed up for, to be used as a political and emotional tool in this way.
Sorry to disrupt the recent spate of posts about statuary and soldiers but returning to thread title....
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/nypd-lieutenant-apologizes-for-kneeling-alongside-protesters-in-response-to-nypd-take-a-knee-chant
I don't see this helping either side; the individual involved is attempting to exonerate his behaviour.