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<div class="bbp-reply-author d-flex align-items-center flex-wrap">chewkw
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i got all excited for a moment there...
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Wtf...
Kryton has broken 😕
I like David Starkey blah blah blah blah blah blah on TV, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Tudor blah blah blah blah blah blah but to me he is presenting blah blah blah blah blah blah, which is brilliant in my mind.
You saw a bloke on telly who was enthusiastic about a period in history and he made it sound like a soap-opera. You've no idea whether it's in any way accurate, but he sounds posh, so you're willing to suspend your disbelief. Good for you. Sounds like a win for Starkey. Better warn you though, he's a terrible old reactionary right wing nutter with "challenging" views on immigration, so you know, you might want to bear that in mind.
Starkey has the kind of views on people who are not just like him that would make your grandparents blush
David Starkey! shit if your views on Multiculturalism and Minorities garner the support of Rod Liddle and Toby Jones then you're a racist **** in my book.
On the surface it might look like a good idea but it will not work.
Where I come from we are discriminated no ifs or buts. The authority does not even bother to hide it or to pretend to hide it put this way. For example, all civil servant jobs are totally reserved for certain race and religion. If you don’t belong to the listed race or religion your only hope is to find way to survive on your own or join the private sector. Even higher education is reserved for certain race and/or religion, with very limited quota for others. Even the quota is not met in full. We also experience race riots 1969 where many died but nothing change much until today. In my experience things are getting slightly better, slightly … I still got shouted with sarcastic remarks the last time I renewed my driving license at the council. Note that my description above is from far east.
It may not make a direct difference, but it will be a permanent reminder to Angry Tinkerbell, effectively rubbing his nose in it.
As for your second point, as others have repeatedly pointed out, demonstrations and revolutions do not always work.
Any positive changes often take place over extended periods of time. France had a bloody revolution that ultimately worked out, here in the U.K. there have been large riots that led to loss of life and massive destruction to property, which did lead to changes in time, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, riots in Bristol, the Swing riots, the Jarrow marchers, riots in Melksham...
We have a bit of a history of things kicking off due to injustices, have a read through this lot and bone up on our history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_Martyrs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarrow_March
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_riots
The Jarrow March wasn't a riot, it was utterly peaceful with literally no theft. They were bloody starving - in the unlikely event they *had* nicked something it would have been food.
I apologise for sullying the thread with Starkey but rydsters comments could easily have come from him.
I have to say, this made me smile, there’s a whole list of things they could play; The Clash, ‘I Fought The Law’...
https://www.inputmag.com/culture/protesters-stole-nypd-radios-to-blast-breaking-the-law-by-judas-priest
People are starting to think what's happening in their own back yard. We had the French Interior minister on the news earlier talking about things have got to change in France and there is this in the Birmingham Evening Mail:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-police-three-times-18368385
I suggest reading to the bottom the numbers keep coming
@outofbreath, no, but it was a protest, and there have been many others, the Tolpuddle Martyrs being another; many started as protests, just like what’s going on now, my point being that this country has had many of both over the years, it’s not just other countries who have a history of oppression.
As I thought, things are kicking off in DC, on both sides...
https://www.brooklynvegan.com/dc-mayor-has-black-lives-matters-painted-in-massive-letters-on-street-leading-to-the-white-house/
We’re seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence.
There wouldn't be protests and demonstrations in every state if it wasn't widespread.
Also - this isn't spread evenly across everyone the police deal with. That racial element is what stands out in most all statistics I've seen.
How on earth, in 8 or 9 minutes, could the other officers not establish that Floyd was not armed and thus didn't present any threat?
It is murder.
See chewkw, scroll fast
Another look at the consequences of using ‘non-lethal’ weapons in close contact crowd situations.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/06/what-nonlethal-weapons-can-do-to-the-body-george-floyd/
Fingerbang,
You've created a verb there.
inkster - my post a couple of days ago which was directed at you was unacceptable.
It was ignorant, inappropriate and you had done nothing to deserve it.
I apologise unreservedly.
No wories frank, I didn't see it as malicious in any way.
The other thread touched on particular experiences and how sensitive they can be. Forums like this work well due to the back and forth and the subsequent demands for corroboration or confirmation. I think we're collectively finding our way through this current discourse in a way that's a little unfamiliar, and our usual modus operandi and debating tools fall short in the face of the magnitude of current events.
I have to say, this made me smile, there’s a whole list of things they could play; The Clash, ‘I Fought The Law’…
I think, under the circumstances, the Dead Kennedys version would be a better fit. Save The Clash for if it goes nipples upward.
Depressingly, many of the things the Dead Kennedy’s sang about, are still here and sometimes worse.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1269010515965116416
On a lighter note, this is great (edit - crap link)
57 NYC police officers resign in defence of their two colleagues who were fired for bravely repositioning an old gent out of the way for his own safety and security. They must be fuming, why instruct us to learn and do this stuff with this gear and then accuse us of being unfriendly? I await an intervention from the Great Orange One.
His speech yesterday will surely go down in history. What was doubly astonishing was that on a US feed I was getting the comments were maybe 50% in support. Oh lordy, you reap what you sew.
Sounds like the NYC just improved by 57 officers
Thank you for spotting that. I doubt whether the views of those 57 were much different to the rest of the force and their officers. Maybe the 57 had a variety of complaints against them already and were getting a bit toey about collars being felt.
His speech yesterday will surely go down in history. What was doubly astonishing was that on a US feed I was getting the comments were maybe 50% in support. Oh lordy, you reap what you sew.
Difficult to gauge the reality of support. The blind servile loyalty some are showing does suggest that when things are going really very badly the shouting will increase to try and compensate.
Friends in the US that have often been either supportive of Trump, or at least cynical of criticism aimed at Trump but never really been out and out “he is our god emperor, truly the greatest human ever” supporters have gone completely silent.
I’ve no real idea about what this is going to do to his long term support. On the one hand is seems completely unsustainable, on the other hand, it’s a nation where community groups have posted online with pride locals patrolling the streets with automatic weapons. As if somehow that’s a good result.
This is something to factor in when thinking about US Police
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
For clarity, I do not know enough to know how truthful the article is being
There's a danger of the bad apples trick being employed when actually these forces are just carrying out Don's policies. Studies of canteen culture over here have not made for very cheering reading. These officers are not nasty exceptions, they all look to me to be dutifully acting in the same way as per instructions, 'I'm only doing my job'.
Posted the CNN link to this as it was live the other day for rydster to watch, so worth posting again in the thread as obviously nothing in that link any more...
Worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
Piemomster,
If you're wondering about the presence of white supremacists in law enforcement, googling Bob Kroll would be a good place to start.
He is the Minneapolis police union chief. The guy that manages to get 40% of officers who have been fired for misconduct their job back.
The guy who belongs to a White nationalist motorcycle club comprised of largely Minneapolis and Chicago police officers. He himself has had complaints filed against him for wearing a 'white power patch on his motorcycle jacket. Other members of the gang wear KKK insignia, or patches saying 'here for the hanging.' Bob Kroll has 18 complaints against him personally, the first of which was for kicking a 14 year old black kid in the nuts whilst hurling racist abuse at him. The other 17 complaints? Guess.
Last year Bob Kroll was a guest speaker at a Trump rally, where after being introduced by Trump he went on to spew racist filth and call BLM terrorists.
EDIT
He has the support of over 800 of his fellow city cops. That's 800 rotten apples right there.
null
You saw a bloke on telly who was enthusiastic about a period in history and he made it sound like a soap-opera.
History is boring but Starkey makes it interesting even when some do not agree with his interpretation. What is there to stop others presenting their own versions which they have done with other historians and I like them too. e.g. Very soothing while watching Lucy Worsley.
You’ve no idea whether it’s in any way accurate, but he sounds posh, so you’re willing to suspend your disbelief. Good for you. Sounds like a win for Starkey.
History happened long time ago so it is up to the people to interpret those events. We will never know other then compare perspectives from various sources (in this case those historians) and interpretation.
Better warn you though, he’s a terrible old reactionary right wing nutter with “challenging” views on immigration, so you know, you might want to bear that in mind.
To me whether historians can be "right, left or centre whatever" is irrelevant. I just want to listen to their perspectives and I can make up my own mind. For example, where I come from a group of historical warriors were wiped out of history after they were found out to be non-indigenous but were "bodyguards" sent over to protect then fleeting ruler by the Chinese Emperor (they were trading partners). Then everyone wonders why did the strongest SE Asian empire collapse that is when things become interesting upon hearing from more historical records ... from China, India, Arabs, Europe ... Therefore, to say that history can only be interpreted by certain perspectives can be suspicious.
If you want to see a leader of American police, look up Bob Kroll.
There's your sign.
There’s a danger of the bad apples trick being employed when actually these forces are just carrying out Don’s policies
Yep, most concentration camp guards were lovely and cuddly, it was those pesky orders.
TBH chewkw, and I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David’s work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he’s a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
Are you saying he should or we should become positivist?
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.
Can I ask a question? A well known British black celebrity has posted a speech/rant on Instagram which is aimed at black people. Spoken in a passionate way it aims to provide ideas to end the "white supremacist world" in which we live. Most of the advice is poignant, despite the fact I believe apply to all people not just black people (interestingly part of which was, don't get wrapped up in social media).
Now, I felt offended by that. It feels to me like sweeping generalisation and almost facist(?) and offensive to say. Did I misunderstand it? I agree that education for - mostly white - people in this context is important, but I'm not a white supremacist just because I don't have experience of the issues. It feel a bit militant to me, and feels like it could cause more hate and division solely by use of that set of words.
Am I wrong?
Kryton I think the point is that those of us who haven't seen this stuff first hand need to start looking for it and questioning how and why it occurs.
No doubt someone can put it better than that, there is lots of stuff on this on my FB feed just now.
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.
& your thoughts are?
Kryton I think the point is that those of us who haven’t seen this stuff first hand need to start looking for it and questioning how and why it occurs.
No doubt someone can put it better than that, there is lots of stuff on this on my FB feed just now.
I get that the first para. The question I'm really ask is that is the generalisation and use of "white supremacy" a little militant and offensive? e.g. maybe a little step too far, and that it could be damaging to the overall cause.
Edit: - I just talked to my - Black - wife. She agrees that language is important and a a generalisation like this needs to be met with caution. Perhaps a better way she says would be "white dominant", and "white supremacist" should be reserved for those deserved to be categorised as such.
mrlebowski
Member
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.& your thoughts are?
I really have no idea. Assuming it isn't just racist tub-thumping, does exposure of racism (and hope for it being tackled) make investors feel more positive? Does reasserting that the US is racist embolden racist investors? **** it's scary isnt it.
It's probably stock movements in weapons manufacturers/retailers